My Lutheran pastor when I was a kid frowned on D&D but he mostly thought we should go out for football and have a summer job and socialize instead. Also he thought it was expensive and prurient in a low rent sort of way. But there was no "Satan" or "magic" or "this could make them superstitious or vulnerable to cults" aspect. He saw it as a waste of time, and not developmental; he saw that it made kids bicker and thought we could probably find a better way to spend time and energy. We could go fishing or build bird houses and books shelves, etc. He never tried to take our stuff away or anything.

Oddly the guy who ran the hobby store where I bought most of my AD&D stuff and Ral Partha and Grenadier minis from felt the same way. He kept trying to interest me in planes, trains, and slot cars, and such. He hated to see me rooting around in that gaming ghetto. I was a nerd to other nerds. Bottom of the heap. LOL.

I guess we looked like the viral larping video to my pastor and hobby shop owner. " Fireball! Fireball! Fireball! Sleep!"

Meanwhile, in my corner of the world (the land of winter), the church are not just positive to it, but use it themselves to teach ethics and morals when it is time for confirmation of the youth. They arrange their own conventions and even distribute their own games. They have made about half a dozen games in various genres like fantasy, sci-fi, urban fantasy and historical. I think at least one is a original system while most is probably Basic Roleplaying.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 10, 2021, 12:52:39 PM
The sjw problem is a cultural problem, not a symptom of pure karen-dom.
The SJWs greatest allies are those that say they are "well meaning just not executed well".

Until the cultural institutions of SJWs are rejected, they will keep influencing D&D

I have zero problem with SJWs being "well executed"

Quote from: Null42 on July 10, 2021, 12:26:52 PM
Quite a good idea, actually.

I'm wondering what you would do. Perhaps I'm not artist enough to think of it, but...

There seems to be a lack of real right-wing cultural product...the memes are pretty clever and mock the left, but I'm not seeing anything like Conan the Barbarian that sets off a bunch of imitators. The last really culturally conservative era I can think of was the 1980s.

You could rebrand, say, Sigmata as a fight against a communist rather than fascist government pretty easily, but I can't think of anything like Vampire that taps into an emerging subculture (in this case goth) and gets that sort of counterculture popularity. A lot of people (not even all on the right) are getting sick of 'woke'/PC, but I don't see much creative ferment yet.

Any suggestions?

Maybe a post apocalyptic game, where the "next deadly strain" of COVID actually kills off 70% of the worlds population. Alternately, the vaccine was in reality a form of population control, and 18 months after the majority of people were vaccinated, millions are inflicted with a prion disorder, AKA becoming zombies.

Well armed preppers who avoided the jab are the main survivors, and the goal is to survive.

Yes, derivative AF, but it would trigger the crazies on the left.

Especially if we make it a PbtA game, but grognard the crap out of it.

I haven't followed the whole thread, but one of the things I did when I started a new fantasy game- I just went with Ars Magica.

It's a known game, but it's set in 1220 A.D.  There's nothing "woke" about 1220 A.D.  Your character can be whatever he or she wants.  The PC could be a hermaprodite half-faerie, I don't care.  But the peasants and the nobility are going to do what they do, and react how they react.  So your PC should be prepared for that.  You came to MY game.  But, when I advertised my game, no one who wasn't interested in magic, history, and/or both came to the table.  Which is pretty much what I expected.   

Before that I advertised and ran "Lamentations of the Flame Princess" which went on for 4 years.  Which was ... pretty much just D&D with a horror edge.  But anyone looking at those books was not going to come to my table and expect a "PC" game. 

So just ditch D&D, play something else.  There are a ton of games out there, and most people just want to play something.  Don't worry about internet keyboard jockeys and play what you want.   D&D/WotC is going to advertise and publish whatever seems to be the most "in" thing right now to avoid bad press and make money, and right now "woke" is "in", apparently. 

Hell, I don't even disagree with a lot of woke things.  Equal rights for all.  Good.  Fine.  Great!  I agree.  But let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater. 

Quote from: zagreus on July 14, 2021, 09:15:56 AMSo just ditch D&D, play something else.

Yes. Attachment to brands is a weakness the woke exploit. Stop thinking brands are your friends.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 14, 2021, 11:17:12 AM

Quote from: zagreus on July 14, 2021, 09:15:56 AMSo just ditch D&D, play something else.

Yes. Attachment to brands is a weakness the woke exploit. Stop thinking brands are your friends.

Oh for sure, Though personally I tend to refer to the whole category of games as dungeons and dragons. Not so much a brand but referring to the origin of the rule set as a concept. I mean most of the osr doesn't have the dnd branding but you're still playing dnd. Might be a little or a lot modified but is still dnd. It's just exhausting changing games every time a company goes woke. And buying their stuff even if my home game doesn't enforce their bullshit is still supporting them. I was really hoping nu tsr wasn't just a cash grab, or isn't harassed and banned into oblivion just to have another company that isn't woke and is openly opposed to it.

I mean earlier in the thread someone mentioned making more original products and is a really good idea. If we can get our products out there, make our own communities and conventions it would really take the wind out of their sails and cripple their ability to financially ruin anyone who doesn't look like they're from Portland.

Quote from: zagreus on July 14, 2021, 09:15:56 AM
I haven't followed the whole thread, but one of the things I did when I started a new fantasy game- I just went with Ars Magica.

It's a known game, but it's set in 1220 A.D.  There's nothing "woke" about 1220 A.D.  Your character can be whatever he or she wants.  The PC could be a hermaprodite half-faerie, I don't care.  But the peasants and the nobility are going to do what they do, and react how they react.  So your PC should be prepared for that.  You came to MY game.  But, when I advertised my game, no one who wasn't interested in magic, history, and/or both came to the table.  Which is pretty much what I expected.   

Before that I advertised and ran "Lamentations of the Flame Princess" which went on for 4 years.  Which was ... pretty much just D&D with a horror edge.  But anyone looking at those books was not going to come to my table and expect a "PC" game. 

So just ditch D&D, play something else.  There are a ton of games out there, and most people just want to play something.  Don't worry about internet keyboard jockeys and play what you want.   D&D/WotC is going to advertise and publish whatever seems to be the most "in" thing right now to avoid bad press and make money, and right now "woke" is "in", apparently. 

Hell, I don't even disagree with a lot of woke things.  Equal rights for all.  Good.  Fine.  Great!  I agree.  But let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Yes.  This is good advice.

It's not just the games however.  By stepping outside D&D you are also stepping outside of fandom.  People are deeply invested in D&D in the way they are deeply invested in Star Wars and it all becomes a fandom fight in which the powerless delude themselves they are otherwise.

No one is deeply invested in Ars Magica or Lamentations of the Flame Princess as a fandom.  They just want to play a game.  So you immediately improve the quality of your pool of potential players.

We need our own convention. It will be a lightning rod moment when it happens.

Make
Adventuring
Great
Again
Con

(still really loving that idea)

As for games, I think a "counter-culture game" is any game that doesn't stuff itself with SJW nonsense. AKA, pick up pretty much any game in the 80s and emulate its lack of idiocy. System and setting mean less for the game to be "counter-culture" than just making a game that's about the game, not some kind of virtue signal (toward either political end).

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 03, 2021, 07:15:35 PM

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 03, 2021, 05:38:48 PM
We could restrict words too.  Like if someone uses the word "Bigot", "racist", "ableist", "[whatever]phobe", in any sort of accusatory way, they could get banned for "inciting hatred" or some such.

You don't support free speech by restricting it.

Private websites aren't beholden to laws of free speech.  Governments are.

I mean, even here, you agreed to abide by the rules, which restrict what you can say.  It's not a free speech argument.

Quote from: pdboddy on July 15, 2021, 12:44:55 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 03, 2021, 07:15:35 PM

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on July 03, 2021, 05:38:48 PM
We could restrict words too.  Like if someone uses the word "Bigot", "racist", "ableist", "[whatever]phobe", in any sort of accusatory way, they could get banned for "inciting hatred" or some such.

You don't support free speech by restricting it.

Private websites aren't beholden to laws of free speech.  Governments are.

I mean, even here, you agreed to abide by the rules, which restrict what you can say.  It's not a free speech argument.

Free speech is a foundational principle of Western liberal thought, it's not defined by a law.

This site promotes itself as a site that values free speech. That has nothing to do with the law.

Quote from: Pat on July 15, 2021, 12:48:35 PM
Free speech is a foundational principle of Western liberal thought, it's not defined by a law.

This site promotes itself as a site that values free speech. That has nothing to do with the law.

I suppose you're right.

It's the high road being taken.

However, as it stands, taking the high road is currently a losing proposition.

Quote from: pdboddy on July 15, 2021, 01:02:12 PMHowever, as it stands, taking the high road is currently a losing proposition.

You can't beat SJWs at the low road.

Quote from: pdboddy on July 15, 2021, 01:02:12 PM
It's the high road being taken.

However, as it stands, taking the high road is currently a losing proposition.

Taking the high road on basic principles isn't about winning short-term tactical victories, but it is essential to winning the war.

There's some argument to be made that a cause needs both idealists to keep the them on track, and pragmatists who are willing to compromise in order to win many of the individual battles. Successful activism often seems structured that way.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 15, 2021, 02:03:11 PM

Quote from: pdboddy on July 15, 2021, 01:02:12 PMHowever, as it stands, taking the high road is currently a losing proposition.

You can't beat SJWs at the low road.

You can beat them at their own game, using their own logic.  Every now and then, you have to do this.