I study and teach Gothic literature.  I've always loved Gothic literature.  When the first Ravenloft setting box set came in the 90s I thought it was going to be the best thing ever.

But I remember being vaguely disappointed in Ravenloft as a setting.  Something about it just didn't sit right with me.  It's only recently that I've really figured out how I think Ravenloft when wrong and what should be done to fix it.

1) Ravenloft cleaves too closely to its points of inspiration. For example, in Ravenloft there is a mad scientist who creates a man out of corpses who comes to hate his creator.  What this does is make NPCs who should be mysterious and original into known quantities: "Oh, it's like Frankenstein and his monster!"

How to fix this: Re-orient Ravenloft away from Gothic pastiche and use it as a spring-board to make new Gothic villains, areas, etc. that carry the Gothic influence into new, gamable arenas.

2) Ravenloft often doesn't feel like a setting that breaths.  The severity of this problem varies with the version of the setting, but Ravenloft tends to lack those little details that make a setting come alive.  The Domains of Dread hardback detailed some organizations in Ravenloft...and those were great because they gave plot hooks and NPCs for the characters to interact with.  (Sadly, they weren't mentioned much in the 3.0 version of the setting.)  The 3.0 version of the setting did finally detail (briefly) the religions at home in Ravenloft; why wasn't that something that figured into the setting all along, especially since religion is so important in Gothic novels?

How to fix this: More information on human-level organizations, religions, secret societies, cabals, factions, etc. that can motivate adventures and provide some much-needed color and flavor.

3) Ravenloft's villains have too much backstory that doesn't really matter.  Indeed, in some versions of the setting the Dark Lords' stories receive as much space as the lands they rule.  Of course, each ruler should have a story to make them interesting, but they definitely don't require the suggestions that you go read the novel about them.

How to fix this: Less info on what happened to the villains before the characters got involved, more info on what the villains are up to RIGHT NOW and how the characters might get mixed up in their plots.  Make the setting gameable, not an exercise in failed fiction writing ala White Wolf!

I'd love to hear other folks' thoughts on this, so have at it.

I agree on point 3 and somewhat on point 1 ( though I think that is part of its charm). I actualy kind of disagree on point two. I really disliked the domains of dread book when compared with tge previous material. For me the ROT boxed set had just enough info to fire up my imagination, but DoD went in a direction that didn't interest me much. I kind of liked ROT's simplicity and enjoyed the campiness of the gothic tropes (strahd, mordenheim, tristen, etc).

Interesting topic by the way.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;477330I agree on point 3 and somewhat on point 1 ( though I think that is part of its charm). I actualy kind of disagree on point two. I really disliked the domains of dread book when compared with tge previous material. For me the ROT boxed set had just enough info to fire up my imagination, but DoD went in a direction that didn't interest me much. I kind of liked ROT's simplicity and enjoyed the campiness of the gothic tropes (strahd, mordenheim, tristen, etc).

Fair enough, mate!  I realize that the setting means different things to different people, particularly depending on how they were introduced to it.

I'm curious though, what was it about the DoD you liked less than RoT?  RoT felt somewhat...thin to me.  Almost as if they hadn't really fleshed it out before sending it to the printers.  Compare it to the original Forgotten Realms box, for example.

My thoughts on Point 2:

I like Ravenloft, but I always found it odd as a wide ranging setting.  Ripping off Dracula is awesome.  Ripping off Frankenstein is awesome.  Each of those create a cool gothic / MGM horror aesthetic on their own.  However, a setting that includes Dracula and Frankenstein and The Mummy and The Wolf Man and The Creature From the Black Lagoon gets a bit silly for my tastes.  I becomes less gothic horror and more Monster Squad, I guess.

I would re-conceptualize Ravenloft as modules.  Characters and monsters that you could drop into an ongoing campaign rather than straining to figure out a way in which they all co-exist.  

I like the idea of expanding on rules for monster hunters and factions.

Quote from: misterguignol;477332I'm curious though, what was it about the DoD you liked less than RoT?  RoT felt somewhat...thin to me.  Almost as if they hadn't really fleshed it out before sending it to the printers.  Compare it to the original Forgotten Realms box, for example.

Part of it was the packaging itself. DoD just didn't inspire me much visually, while RoT did. But really I felt that the meat of Ravenloft (the how to run a gothic adventure) wasn't well done in DoD. The ROT sections on Horror and GMing really inspired me. And the whole thing was written in a style that just captured the feel of the setting. DoD filled in details I felt I could do myself (and better) and it pushed the setting too much in the direction of dark and even heroic fantasy (I think they even made something of a point of trying to bring Ravenloft more in line with other fantasy settings in that regard).

So for me I didn't want Ravenloft to be fleshed out like forgotten realms. It didn't need it (In fact I think that would have stiffled me). That was the GMs job in my view. Part of the fun of Ravenloft was the mystery not the canon. At least for me.

Part of this may also be how I came to Ravenloft. What got me interested initially was reading Knight of the Black Rose freshman year of highschool. I imediately got RoT and something just clicked with the setting for me (in a way no other D&D setting had). Something about the way RoT was written and presented just got me on this huge gothic horror kick. I went out and read Dracula, Frankenstein, Jeckyl and Hyde, Sheridan le Fanu, Hunchback of Notre Dame, etc. Up till then I had never touched reading material from that period, except a little Poe. The ROT book was also my first introduction to Lovecraft (who I soon became a big fan of).

EDIT: One other thing about DoD I didn't like (at least while using it for this latest campaign) was it constantly referenced other books that contained relevant info and ommitted that info itself. So if you comb through DoD you will actually find very little information on the vistani (because they wanted you to buy Van Richten's Guide to the Vsitani). Other issues included key domains not being detailed, that sort of thing (I believe Sri Raji was excluded as were a few others).

Quote from: Dixon Hill;477333My thoughts on Point 2:

I like Ravenloft, but I always found it odd as a wide ranging setting.  Ripping off Dracula is awesome.  Ripping off Frankenstein is awesome.  Each of those create a cool gothic / MGM horror aesthetic on their own.  However, a setting that includes Dracula and Frankenstein and The Mummy and The Wolf Man and The Creature From the Black Lagoon gets a bit silly for my tastes.  I becomes less gothic horror and more Monster Squad, I guess.

I would re-conceptualize Ravenloft as modules.  Characters and monsters that you could drop into an ongoing campaign rather than straining to figure out a way in which they all co-exist.  

I like the idea of expanding on rules for monster hunters and factions.

I like this idea as well. I got the first Ravenloft adventure when it first came out, but then they put out the whole setting and it ended up seeming to me like D&D's attempt to create their own WoD. I liked the Ravenloft adventure module though, and if the other villains had been presented in much the same way, I would have been much more interested. The "pocket dimension" thing with them all in it (including Lord Soth fer the luva Pete), interested me far less.

Quote from: Dixon Hill;477333My thoughts on Point 2:

I like Ravenloft, but I always found it odd as a wide ranging setting.  Ripping off Dracula is awesome.  Ripping off Frankenstein is awesome.  Each of those create a cool gothic / MGM horror aesthetic on their own.  However, a setting that includes Dracula and Frankenstein and The Mummy and The Wolf Man and The Creature From the Black Lagoon gets a bit silly for my tastes.  I becomes less gothic horror and more Monster Squad, I guess.

I would re-conceptualize Ravenloft as modules.  Characters and monsters that you could drop into an ongoing campaign rather than straining to figure out a way in which they all co-exist.  

I like the idea of expanding on rules for monster hunters and factions.

I think this is a preference thing. I did spend a lot of time watching Hammer and universal movies as a kid so a setting where wolfman and dracula co-exist was fine for me. Is it a little on the silly side? Yes, but for a game I felt it worked (and horror doesn't always have to take itself seriously).

Quote from: Sigmund;477336The "pocket dimension" thing with them all in it (including Lord Soth fer the luva Pete), interested me far less.

This has come up on ravenloft message boards. I think the issue that crops up is, if you take away the domains and darklords, you really don't have Ravenloft any more. You just have a dark fantasy setting on a normal game world. You could remove some of the camp (following MG's suggestion of not importing the tropes wholesale) easily enough, but I think when you take away domains and darklords you would probably have something more like Mightnight.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;477338This has come up on ravenloft message boards. I think the issue that crops up is, if you take away the domains and darklords, you really don't have Ravenloft any more. You just have a dark fantasy setting on a normal game world. You could remove some of the camp (following MG's suggestion of not importing the tropes wholesale) easily enough, but I think when you take away domains and darklords you would probably have something more like Mightnight.

Indeed. Exactly why I never got into it. Didn't want all the bosses, and without the bosses it wasn't all that interesting. I'd still play or run Ravenloft (the module) and it's sequel though, and just insert them into whatever other setting I'd be running (most likely Birthright or homebrew).

Quote from: Sigmund;477339Indeed. Exactly why I never got into it. Didn't want all the bosses, and without the bosses it wasn't all that interesting. I'd still play or run Ravenloft (the module) and it's sequel though, and just insert them into whatever other setting I'd be running (most likely Birthright or homebrew).

Up to DoD, Ravenloft was really more designed for Weekend in Hell scenarios than prolonged compaigns (though I did run plenty long campaigns there). So I think the assumption was most adventures would play out a little like the original Ravenloft module (except instead of just Strahd you had a bunch of baddies to chose from). DoD tried to get Ravenloft away from the weekend in hell thing.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;477335Part of it was the packaging itself. DoD just didn't inspire me much visually, while RoT did. But really I felt that the meat of Ravenloft (the how to run a gothic adventure) wasn't well done in DoD. The ROT sections on Horror and GMing really inspired me. And the whole thing was written in a style that just captured the feel of the setting. DoD filled in details I felt I could do myself (and better) and it pushed the setting too much in the direction of dark and even heroic fantasy (I think they even made something of a point of trying to bring Ravenloft more in line with other fantasy settings in that regard).

Heh, maybe I dislike RoT so much because they spelled Edgar Allan Poe's name wrong.  (And didn't mention Walpole, Radcliffe, or Lewis as authors to read!)  

QuoteEDIT: One other thing about DoD I didn't like (at least while using it for this latest campaign) was it constantly referenced other books that contained relevant info and ommitted that info itself. So if you comb through DoD you will actually find very little information on the vistani (because they wanted you to buy Van Richten's Guide to the Vsitani). Other issues included key domains not being detailed, that sort of thing (I believe Sri Raji was excluded as were a few others).

Yeah, that is by far the most annoying part of the DoD for sure.  Parts of it are so GO READ THIS OTHER BOOK you wonder why they even bothered.

I agree with all three of your points. The original adventure had an RPG novelty to it, intricate detail throughout, and a wonderful, relevant backstory. All three qualities that you point out that the setting(s) lacked.

I think there are other problems, too, as people have said. Too many darklords in too small a pocket dimension. The whole idea of a pocket dimension. Transparent commercialism. And the most serious problem, a lack of originality, especially when compared to I6.

IMO, they should have made Ravenloft the setting simply Barovia. Strahd on the throne where he belongs. Adding in other darklords just weakens him by giving him equals (or near equals). Which seems more real, more alive (pun intended), more threatening? Definitely Barovia, not some wait-what artificial dimension with ten different conceits about mists and darklords and yadda yadda yadda Strahd=goth Elminster.

I'm okay with Ravenloft, especially being a sentient demi-plane that consumes evils from all over.

Quote from: YcoreRixle;477342IMO, they should have made Ravenloft the setting simply Barovia. Strahd on the throne where he belongs. Adding in other darklords just weakens him by giving him equals (or near equals). Which seems more real, more alive (pun intended), more threatening? Definitely Barovia, not some wait-what artificial dimension with ten different conceits about mists and darklords and yadda yadda yadda Strahd=goth Elminster.

One thing I've done is simply drop Barovia, and no other part of Ravenloft, into the hinterlands of a different setting.  That makes Barovia and Strahd feel more unique, instead of having him and his realm be one of dozens of "domains of dread."  

I think there is a guy with a blog who did the same by dropping Barovia into Greyhawk!