Quote from: RPGPundit on May 26, 2021, 10:10:53 PM

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 26, 2021, 10:00:14 AM
Did they get rid of evil or did they only get rid of the alignment system? Seems like Ravenloft wouldn't work if evil wasn't a thing there (the premise of the setting was the dark powers respond to evil by rewarding, cursing and imprisoning it: this is what makes dark lords, but it operates at a smaller scale with other types of characters)

They're schizophrenic about it. They still describe dark lords (mostly) as 'evil' on occasion. but of course no race is allowed to be evil. Characters in the game can be the children of vampires, hags, or the undead, and not suffer any social stigma. The Vistani are cheered and celebrated by welcoming natives wherever they travel, because in the Nu-Ravenloft villagers believe that Diveristy is Our Strength.

You can apparently choose to start with a Dark Gift, and it has no consequences whatsoever. It's just a cool superpower now.

(Emphasis mine)
I do not think that word means what you think it means

You might not want to make jokes about schizophrenia, too. I know people with schizophrenia, and jokes like this makes it harder for them to be taken seriously.

Also, the Dark Lords are specifically chosen by the Dark Powers because they're evil individuals. People don't want all races to be universally evil in the core of D&D (mainly) because that's not how it is in the real world and they've had fun playing good-aligned goblinoids, orcs, drow, and so on. Sure, the races are allowed to be evil at your table if you make it that way, no D&D Police are going to come busting down your door to make Orcs not "always evil", but they've mostly been advocating for a change to the core rules to allow individual DMs to change it to how they like.

You haven't read the book, right, because that's not what the book says about children of Vampires, Hags, and undead/golems. It doesn't include those penalties, because that's for the DM to choose. It does not say "your party's PCs cannot face racial discrimination because we say so", and it doesn't say "these races are hated by the citizens of Ravenloft". Not choosing a stance doesn't mean that they're catering towards either.

Why wouldn't Vistani be celebrated in (at least) some of Ravenloft? Why wouldn't the travelers that can bring supplies and letters from other Domains of Dread be seen as a valuable resource? I know that they've historically been connected to the "shifty gypsy" stereotype (which I never liked in the first place), but that never made any sense to me because they're some of the only people actually allowed to freely move through the Mists. It doesn't matter if they're racist, a person stranded in a Demiplane inside the shadowfell will take service from the only people they have to give them service.

Also, most types of diversity do have positive benefits (with a few exceptions, like political/religious diversity in certain circumstances, where it can often lead to fighting/arguing).
https://perspective.earth/diversity/
https://www.currentaffairs.org/2018/09/if-you-really-want-to-know-why-diversity-is-good

(I apologize if any of this breaks your politics rules. I figured because you brought up a political topic, that I would be allowed to respond to it.)

Quote from: Reckall on May 26, 2021, 01:53:59 AM

Quote from: jhkim on May 26, 2021, 01:47:14 AM
And good drow have also been around since the 1980s.

And good orcs, BTW.

Case on point
Judges Guild's Wilderlands of the Magic Realms 1979


My writeups for the Necromancer Games Boxed Set trying to make sense of this.

Red Bull
A hundred years ago Red Bull was typical community of orcs raiding north to Derkhalf Shire of the halflings and south toward Greenwax. A series of internal fights left the tribe destitute and starving. A ship of Skandik Vikings shipwrecked along the coast near Red Bull. The orcs found them and at first tried to enslave them. The Skandiks fought back and defeated the orcs. A priest of Odin with the Skandiks had a vision from the god commanding him to convert the orcs into worthy warriors for Valhalla. The remaining orcs converted at first because of the promise of food and shelter. True converts came later due to the victories the gods brought the over the renegades and monsters. The descendents of the Skandiks have thoroughly integrated into the tribe. Snagdur is the leader of the renegade orcs who follow the old ways. His followers are few in number and live a nomadic existence in the woods and swamps surrounding Red Bull. Galpartinyk is the current high priest of Odin and the leader of the orcs. Since the arrival of the Skandiks they have formed a council of all the Skandik and Orc chiefs. They debate and pass the laws of the tribe. Several of the Skandiks are woodcrafters of exceptional skill and have opened trade with the halflings and humans of the region.

Heir Helm
When the Skandik shipwrecked near Red Bull they were part of a fleet. Twenty years later on the first trading expedition from Red Bull it was learned that the ship carrying their old lord was lost as well. The leader the son of a powerful Jarl and was the holder of the Heir's Helm (helm of brilliance). Later it was heard that survivors were found in Orchia. In 4382 The Orc Chieftain Rufgruk and his compatriots built a longship and with the aid of the Skald Geirthjof sailed the shores of Orchia in order to find the helm. They found the shipwreck and built the Heir Helm as base to search the interior. Today Rufguk's grandson Halmakal continues the search and the base has grown into a village. Geirthjof's son Gunnar continues his father research into the helm and the fate of the lost ship. The village supports itself by herding and an extensive leatherworking industry. They trade most of their finished goods to Greenswax. Razlaki is the high priestess of the village and is often called upon to adjudicate disputes in Halmakal's frequent absence.

Staisiswells
The orc chief Azbat led an expedition to the eastern regions of Orchia from Heir Helm searching for the Heir's Helm. He made contact with the Temple of the Uttermost Flame and befriended them. During his adventures he saved a group of sea-elves from pirates. When a group of sages from Heir Helm desired to be closer to the Temple and the College of Orchia he agree to found a settlement next to the sea-elves. In the intervening years the sages dominated the town but Azbat and later his son Orm were content to enjoy the wealth brought by the pearls. Lordware is the leader of the sages and deals with all outsiders. He is often organizing expeditions with the College of Orchia and the Temple in search of clues to the whereabouts of the Heir's Helm. Ararodei is the leader of the pearl divers and is thankful for the protection of Orm and his men.

Deleted post

Quote from: jhkim on May 26, 2021, 01:06:12 PM
You're implying lack of alignment is somehow a "wokist" thing, but I still say that it's not. Lacking alignment isn't necessarily lacking objective moral codes, as is shown by the hundreds of RPGs since the 1970s that lack alignment. Again, virtually all RPGs other than D&D and its direct imitators lack alignment, including explicitly gothic RPGs like Chill, for example.

Relating the details of my experience, my own Majestic Fantasy RPG doesn't use alignment. Why? Because outside of a few special cases folks are nuanced.

Which of these two codes is followed by the "bad guy?"

Fivefold Code
Show no fear to your enemies even when all is lost.
Let truth guide your life even unto death.
Let the light of goodness and bravery guide you into love.
Protect the helpless as you would protect the lady herself.
For what man is a man who does not make the world better?

Laws of Ma'at
Strength    Only through Strength will Order succeed.
Hardiness    A warrior overcomes all adversity.
Loyalty    Only by the trust of absolute loyalty can chaos be held at bay.
Obedience Those above must be obeyed, those below must obey.
Certainty    There is no doubt that the will of our god is the right and correct way.
Dedication A warrior never wavers in fulfilling the will of our god.
Integrity    A warrior must resist all worldly temptations.
Order    Without Order, Chaos will leave nothing behind.
Wholeness The Laws of Ma'at are whole and must be followed in its entirety.


The Five Fold Code is adhered too by the followers of Mitra, the goddess of honor and justice. Think Lawful Good
The Laws of Ma'at is adhered too by the followers of Set, the god of war and order. Think Lawful Evil.


Those gods are among the oldest notes I have on my campaign from the early 1980s

However I wanted true evil in my setting. So I created a representative of true evil, Demons.

Nature of Demons
The Demons are those who decided that they knew what was best for all of creation at the beginning of time. One-by-one, each demon decided that the order of the world was wrong, and that theirs was the better way. That way demanded dominion over others and their submission to the demon's will.

When they revealed themselves, they swept away nearly all of those who opposed them, and for a time, became the masters of creation. During their reign they took the race of man and twisted him into new forms, seeking to create the prefect servitor race. From these experiments, all the other known sentient races of the Majestic Fantasy Realms were created; Dwarves, Halflings, Orcs, Centaurs, Reptile Men, etc.

Eventually, the surviving gods organized the surviving free people and took in escaped slaves the build an army that brought down the demons. With their victory, the Abyss was created, and the remaining demons were imprisoned.

Good versus Evil
In the Majestic Fantasy Realms, people do good and evil acts. Even the worst villains have a human side where kindness and generosity is shown. However, there are acts so vile that their execution maims the soul. Redemption is possible, but it is a long and difficult process, not unlike a recovering from a grievous injury. Demons are what they are because they have performed vile acts so often that their souls are a twisted remnant. As a consequence, the vast majority of demons can only view the world as something to dominate. That others are either slaves, threats, or too powerful to challenge at this time.

The Abyss is, in a sense, an insanity ward created by the Gods to protect the rest of reality from its inmates. The Gods designed it so that maimed souls are drawn inside. It is said that the Abyss contains the possibility of hope. That in its deepest and darkest reaches there is a way out. The path is harrowing and passes through regions horrifying, even to demons. But those who have managed to redeem themselves can escape into what lies beyond.

Some say that the final barrier is Pride. But acknowledging the decisions that led to the soul's imprisonment within the Abyss were wrong is not enough. The soul has to humble himself and acknowledge that those action were nothing in light of the evil that was committed. Many souls find they are unable to acknowledge that their lives were a waste.

Quote from: jhkim on May 26, 2021, 01:06:12 PM
When we played, what we discussed was things like "There is a darkness in his soul, but he may yet cling to hope through his love for his daughter" and not "Is he Lawful Neutral or Lawful Evil?" Even when I used D&D to run the Ravenloft modules, I ignored alignment as I usually do in D&D, and instead talked in non-alignment terms.

One thing you gain by doing this that there are now more than one solution for detailing with antagonists. Alignments are fine when a moral choice of the campaign boils down here are the good guys who cheer you and here are the bad buy you kill them. But for me with letting my players trash my setting to do whatever like becoming king or building an inn that approach was well boring even to my high school self. Especially playing various historical wargames prior to ever knowing about D&D.  The best ones captured the nuances which made for an more interesting game to play. I am not talking excessive details but including just enough that it made you think about the different approaches one could use.

So I used that experience to setup stuff when the campaign shifted to the point where players could make a go of it. It was worth it because it made it a real challenge and the player felt they actually accomplished something in a way that made sense. And one thing that got jettisoned was alignment.

Quote from: jhkim on May 26, 2021, 01:06:12 PM
While it's possible to deal with such ambiguity even when using an alignment system, I think the alignment system doesn't *help* to do this. In practice, I don't see the functional benefit compared to just not having alignment.

I concur, at best I would use alignment in published material as a guide to personality but I would always go beyond and throw in stuff to paint a more complete character in question when it came up.

Quote from: UndyingDM on May 26, 2021, 11:33:20 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 26, 2021, 10:10:53 PM

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 26, 2021, 10:00:14 AM
Did they get rid of evil or did they only get rid of the alignment system? Seems like Ravenloft wouldn't work if evil wasn't a thing there (the premise of the setting was the dark powers respond to evil by rewarding, cursing and imprisoning it: this is what makes dark lords, but it operates at a smaller scale with other types of characters)

They're schizophrenic about it. They still describe dark lords (mostly) as 'evil' on occasion. but of course no race is allowed to be evil. Characters in the game can be the children of vampires, hags, or the undead, and not suffer any social stigma. The Vistani are cheered and celebrated by welcoming natives wherever they travel, because in the Nu-Ravenloft villagers believe that Diveristy is Our Strength.

You can apparently choose to start with a Dark Gift, and it has no consequences whatsoever. It's just a cool superpower now.

(Emphasis mine)
I do not think that word means what you think it means

You might not want to make jokes about schizophrenia, too. I know people with schizophrenia, and jokes like this makes it harder for them to be taken seriously.

Also, the Dark Lords are specifically chosen by the Dark Powers because they're evil individuals. People don't want all races to be universally evil in the core of D&D (mainly) because that's not how it is in the real world and they've had fun playing good-aligned goblinoids, orcs, drow, and so on. Sure, the races are allowed to be evil at your table if you make it that way, no D&D Police are going to come busting down your door to make Orcs not "always evil", but they've mostly been advocating for a change to the core rules to allow individual DMs to change it to how they like.

You haven't read the book, right, because that's not what the book says about children of Vampires, Hags, and undead/golems. It doesn't include those penalties, because that's for the DM to choose. It does not say "your party's PCs cannot face racial discrimination because we say so", and it doesn't say "these races are hated by the citizens of Ravenloft". Not choosing a stance doesn't mean that they're catering towards either.

Why wouldn't Vistani be celebrated in (at least) some of Ravenloft? Why wouldn't the travelers that can bring supplies and letters from other Domains of Dread be seen as a valuable resource? I know that they've historically been connected to the "shifty gypsy" stereotype (which I never liked in the first place), but that never made any sense to me because they're some of the only people actually allowed to freely move through the Mists. It doesn't matter if they're racist, a person stranded in a Demiplane inside the shadowfell will take service from the only people they have to give them service.

Also, most types of diversity do have positive benefits (with a few exceptions, like political/religious diversity in certain circumstances, where it can often lead to fighting/arguing).
https://perspective.earth/diversity/
https://www.currentaffairs.org/2018/09/if-you-really-want-to-know-why-diversity-is-good

(I apologize if any of this breaks your politics rules. I figured because you brought up a political topic, that I would be allowed to respond to it.)

This does not break the politics rules, because you are responding to something exclusively connected to the discussion of the setting. If you were, on the other hand, to diverge into a longer discussion of politics beyond how they apply in the Ravenloft setting, that would violate the rules.

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 26, 2021, 10:17:18 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 26, 2021, 02:07:27 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 25, 2021, 11:00:30 AM
Ravenloft has removed alignment from #dnd5e and Drow are now Good. This is all a Postmodernist plan to move #dnd away from myth and moral absolutes of heroic fantasy into "OMG So Random" soulless play.
#ttrpg #osr

So, in case anyone was still thinking RPGPundit was posting accurate information about D&D:

1) Ravenloft doesn't ban alignment.
2) Ravenloft doesn't make Drow good.
3) The RPGPundit hasn't even read the book he's talking about.

1. Are there Alignment stats for any of the creatures in the new Ravenloft book? And that this is in fact a continuation of a change that actually started with Candlekeep?
Go ahead, look it up if you like, I'll wait.

Not listed in two books /= banned from D&D. You have evidence to the contrary? Go ahead, I'll wait.

Quote2. Good Drow, motherfucker: https://comicbook.com/gaming/news/dungeons-dragons-drow-changes-lolth/

That good drow can exist along with evil drow existing does not make all drow good (and this whole claim of yours contradicts your claim #1 anyway). Just like it never did in any other edition of D&D, which also had some good drow. You have evidence to the contrary? Go ahead, I'll wait.

Quote3. I don't need to read something to get reliable information about what is or isn't in it. Now, are alignment stats in it, you fucking liar??

I never claimed alignment stats are in it, YOU claimed it banned alignment, you fucking liar.

Quote from: Mistwell on May 27, 2021, 04:43:43 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 26, 2021, 10:17:18 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 26, 2021, 02:07:27 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 25, 2021, 11:00:30 AM
Ravenloft has removed alignment from #dnd5e and Drow are now Good. This is all a Postmodernist plan to move #dnd away from myth and moral absolutes of heroic fantasy into "OMG So Random" soulless play.
#ttrpg #osr

So, in case anyone was still thinking RPGPundit was posting accurate information about D&D:

1) Ravenloft doesn't ban alignment.
2) Ravenloft doesn't make Drow good.
3) The RPGPundit hasn't even read the book he's talking about.

1. Are there Alignment stats for any of the creatures in the new Ravenloft book? And that this is in fact a continuation of a change that actually started with Candlekeep?
Go ahead, look it up if you like, I'll wait.

Not listed in two books /= banned from D&D. You have evidence to the contrary? Go ahead, I'll wait.

Quote2. Good Drow, motherfucker: https://comicbook.com/gaming/news/dungeons-dragons-drow-changes-lolth/

That good drow can exist along with evil drow existing does not make all drow good (and this whole claim of yours contradicts your claim #1 anyway). Just like it never did in any other edition of D&D, which also had some good drow. You have evidence to the contrary? Go ahead, I'll wait.

Quote3. I don't need to read something to get reliable information about what is or isn't in it. Now, are alignment stats in it, you fucking liar??

I never claimed alignment stats are in it, YOU claimed it banned alignment, you fucking liar.

This might go back to the arguments that keep showing up that go something like: "No reasonable person would believe what Pundit says is literally true." It's all being done for the clicks.

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 27, 2021, 04:48:53 PM
This might go back to the arguments that keep showing up that go something like: "No reasonable person would believe what Pundit says is literally true." It's all being done for the clicks.

I think it's mostly an outrage-fueled attempt to do a Reductio Ad Absurdum argument, but it ends up coming off as an insane strawman-salad peppered with "Woke", "Censorship/Cancel Culture", and "Libtards" to generate attention. If he is serious, someone has a few loose screws in the "Reality-o-meter".

Quote from: UndyingDM on May 26, 2021, 09:56:00 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 26, 2021, 09:08:52 PM

Quote from: UndyingDM on May 26, 2021, 09:03:24 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 26, 2021, 08:20:54 PM
Good and evil are not real concepts in the real world, they're subjective, just like they are in a few D&D settings, like Eberron, Ravnica, and Theros.

Thats not true.  How do you start to imagine that is the case?  You would have to be living a pretty protected life.

It is true. There are some objectively evil/bad things in the real world.

Evil can not be both true and not true.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 26, 2021, 10:45:33 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 26, 2021, 10:27:44 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 26, 2021, 08:20:54 PM
Speaking of Alignment, a recent Jordan Peterson quote struck me:

"Life is a battle of Good against Evil played out on the battlefield of Law against Chaos."

Exactly.

D&D invented the two axis alignment. In real mythology/religion, like Indo-European, Mesopotamian, Egyptian, etc you have order synonymous with good and chaos with bad. Ma'at vs Apep, Gods vs Titans/Giants, etc. They didn't have good and evil as additional separate metaphysical concepts. Nor did Moorcock.

You may want to check out the ancient Chinese, they groked the multi axis alignment system.

Quote from: Shasarak on May 27, 2021, 05:19:21 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 26, 2021, 10:45:33 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 26, 2021, 10:27:44 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 26, 2021, 08:20:54 PM
Speaking of Alignment, a recent Jordan Peterson quote struck me:

"Life is a battle of Good against Evil played out on the battlefield of Law against Chaos."

Exactly.

D&D invented the two axis alignment. In real mythology/religion, like Indo-European, Mesopotamian, Egyptian, etc you have order synonymous with good and chaos with bad. Ma'at vs Apep, Gods vs Titans/Giants, etc. They didn't have good and evil as additional separate metaphysical concepts. Nor did Moorcock.

You may want to check out the ancient Chinese, they groked the multi axis alignment system.

How so? Without specific references I can't research what you're talking about.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 27, 2021, 05:23:09 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 27, 2021, 05:19:21 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 26, 2021, 10:45:33 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 26, 2021, 10:27:44 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 26, 2021, 08:20:54 PM
Speaking of Alignment, a recent Jordan Peterson quote struck me:

"Life is a battle of Good against Evil played out on the battlefield of Law against Chaos."

Exactly.

D&D invented the two axis alignment. In real mythology/religion, like Indo-European, Mesopotamian, Egyptian, etc you have order synonymous with good and chaos with bad. Ma'at vs Apep, Gods vs Titans/Giants, etc. They didn't have good and evil as additional separate metaphysical concepts. Nor did Moorcock.

You may want to check out the ancient Chinese, they groked the multi axis alignment system.

How so? Without specific references I can't research what you're talking about.

You can start with Taoism

The Bagua gives a pictorial example of the axis:

Quote from: Shasarak on May 27, 2021, 07:18:49 PM
You can start with Taoism

The Bagua gives a pictorial example of the axis:

I remember that from the Illithiad!

Which represents the Nourishers again? I always feel safe and secure when the monster that's about to eat my brain cuddles in close and tells me I'm a wonderful slave.

Quote from: Pat on May 27, 2021, 07:34:19 PM
I always feel safe and secure when the monster that's about to eat my brain cuddles in close and tells me I'm a wonderful slave.

You reading White Fragility again?

Quote from: Shasarak on May 27, 2021, 07:43:20 PM

Quote from: Pat on May 27, 2021, 07:34:19 PM
I always feel safe and secure when the monster that's about to eat my brain cuddles in close and tells me I'm a wonderful slave.

You reading White Fragility again?

There are many types of mind flaying.