Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 25, 2021, 02:39:54 PM
And if you want gothic horror, D&D isn't exactly the best system to represent it. You might be better off with Cryptworld.

Cryptworld has the enormous almost insurmountable flaw of not being D&D.

You're much better off taking D&D and modding it to fit gothic horror better than to play some weird game that isn't OSR and therefore isn't as easily acceptable.

Quote from: Shasarak on May 26, 2021, 08:34:44 PM

Quote from: This Guy on May 26, 2021, 08:21:50 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 26, 2021, 08:20:54 PM
Speaking of Alignment, a recent Jordan Peterson quote struck me:

"Life is a battle of Good against Evil played out on the battlefield of Law against Chaos."

knew he was a fuckin dork with insufficient bullying in his youth

Who would have thought, a Harvard Professor turns out to be a fucking dork.   

Tonight at 11 This Guy gives us his opinion on Water: Wet or not?

dry as my cats asshole last night

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 26, 2021, 09:56:40 PM

Quote from: This Guy on May 25, 2021, 12:01:08 PM
"from myth and moral absolutes of heroic fantasy"

i take it back, pundit has no hate for didactic rpgs, he just wants the right didactics.

No, I just don't want every RPG product to be Brave-new-World style propaganda for leftist agendas and ruining the settings in order to force every D&D campaign to have 2021 Seattle Values in both the play level AND the setting level.

sounds like they arent, unless your games have turned into that when you weren't looking. are you that weak to DnD's peer pressure? are the rest of the OSR?

Quote from: Torque2100 on May 26, 2021, 08:22:01 AM
I really think Pundit is off base here.  Removing Alignment is easily the most common rule adjustment and not indicative of some kind of SJW conspiracy.  Nor is it incompatible with Fantasy roleplaying.  Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay functions just fine with no alignment, as does Dragon Warriors, and The Witcher and Fantasy AGE and basically every other Fantasy Heartbreaker ever published.

Most of those do have alignment. Warhammer certainly does: Law vs Chaos. They just don't have alignment stats.
Wizards' Woke Mafia are removing the stat to remove the concept itself. To remove, more importantly, the suggestion that there is definable good and evil in the world and we should fight against the evil. We all know this is a fact, these fuckers don't believe in anything and want to see civilization burn to the ground.

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 26, 2021, 10:00:14 AM
Did they get rid of evil or did they only get rid of the alignment system? Seems like Ravenloft wouldn't work if evil wasn't a thing there (the premise of the setting was the dark powers respond to evil by rewarding, cursing and imprisoning it: this is what makes dark lords, but it operates at a smaller scale with other types of characters)

They're schizophrenic about it. They still describe dark lords (mostly) as 'evil' on occasion. but of course no race is allowed to be evil. Characters in the game can be the children of vampires, hags, or the undead, and not suffer any social stigma. The Vistani are cheered and celebrated by welcoming natives wherever they travel, because in the Nu-Ravenloft villagers believe that Diveristy is Our Strength.

You can apparently choose to start with a Dark Gift, and it has no consequences whatsoever. It's just a cool superpower now. 

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 26, 2021, 10:07:45 PM

Quote from: Torque2100 on May 26, 2021, 08:22:01 AM
I really think Pundit is off base here.  Removing Alignment is easily the most common rule adjustment and not indicative of some kind of SJW conspiracy.  Nor is it incompatible with Fantasy roleplaying.  Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay functions just fine with no alignment, as does Dragon Warriors, and The Witcher and Fantasy AGE and basically every other Fantasy Heartbreaker ever published.

Most of those do have alignment. Warhammer certainly does: Law vs Chaos. They just don't have alignment stats.
Wizards' Woke Mafia are removing the stat to remove the concept itself. To remove, more importantly, the suggestion that there is definable good and evil in the world and we should fight against the evil. We all know this is a fact, these fuckers don't believe in anything and want to see civilization burn to the ground.

ths is what I Ching does to people. not even once

Quote from: Mistwell on May 26, 2021, 02:07:27 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 25, 2021, 11:00:30 AM
Ravenloft has removed alignment from #dnd5e and Drow are now Good. This is all a Postmodernist plan to move #dnd away from myth and moral absolutes of heroic fantasy into "OMG So Random" soulless play.
#ttrpg #osr

So, in case anyone was still thinking RPGPundit was posting accurate information about D&D:

1) Ravenloft doesn't ban alignment.
2) Ravenloft doesn't make Drow good.
3) The RPGPundit hasn't even read the book he's talking about.

1. Are there Alignment stats for any of the creatures in the new Ravenloft book? And that this is in fact a continuation of a change that actually started with Candlekeep?
Go ahead, look it up if you like, I'll wait.

2. Good Drow, motherfucker: https://comicbook.com/gaming/news/dungeons-dragons-drow-changes-lolth/

3. I don't need to read something to get reliable information about what is or isn't in it. Now, are alignment stats in it, you fucking liar??

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 26, 2021, 10:17:18 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 26, 2021, 02:07:27 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 25, 2021, 11:00:30 AM
Ravenloft has removed alignment from #dnd5e and Drow are now Good. This is all a Postmodernist plan to move #dnd away from myth and moral absolutes of heroic fantasy into "OMG So Random" soulless play.
#ttrpg #osr

So, in case anyone was still thinking RPGPundit was posting accurate information about D&D:

1) Ravenloft doesn't ban alignment.
2) Ravenloft doesn't make Drow good.
3) The RPGPundit hasn't even read the book he's talking about.

1. Are there Alignment stats for any of the creatures in the new Ravenloft book? And that this is in fact a continuation of a change that actually started with Candlekeep?
Go ahead, look it up if you like, I'll wait.

2. Good Drow, motherfucker: https://comicbook.com/gaming/news/dungeons-dragons-drow-changes-lolth/

3. I don't need to read something to get reliable information about what is or isn't in it. Now, are alignment stats in it, you fucking liar??

shifting goalposts like the best of Zak S, nice. fuck off with this "banned by omission" shit and come back when you have a real complaint. maybe cum on your unsold Lion & Dragon hardcopies some.

Quote from: Shasarak on May 26, 2021, 08:17:30 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 25, 2021, 11:00:30 AM
Ravenloft has removed alignment from #dnd5e and Drow are now Good.

If there is no Alignment then how can Drow be Good?

If Drow are Good then how can there be no Alignment?

To be strictly precise, they're "not evil" Drow.

But regardless, do not expect SJWs to be consistent. They will invoke words like "good" or "evil" when they need to, even though their fundamental dogma is that neither exist except when convenient to the narrative.

Boy, the Christian Conservatives got it all wrong. They were so worried about evil-worshipping satanists controlling D&D, they never imagined what harm people who deny the existence of evil would do with it.

Quote from: Shasarak on May 26, 2021, 08:20:54 PM
Speaking of Alignment, a recent Jordan Peterson quote struck me:

"Life is a battle of Good against Evil played out on the battlefield of Law against Chaos."

Exactly.

This Guy has been banned for sockpuppeting. He done fucked up.


Like I have with other absolute fucktards that have come through this forum and managed to get themselves banned (quite a feat!) in the past, I tried to be patient; sometimes I strongly suspect someone is the sockpuppet of a banned user but don't bother to confirm it, in the hopes that maybe this time they'll learn a lesson and will behave themselves. But usually, they quickly prove me wrong.

I'll be much less patient now, so anyone who wants to fuck around will find out real fast.

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 26, 2021, 10:27:44 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on May 26, 2021, 08:20:54 PM
Speaking of Alignment, a recent Jordan Peterson quote struck me:

"Life is a battle of Good against Evil played out on the battlefield of Law against Chaos."

Exactly.

D&D invented the two axis alignment. In real mythology/religion, like Indo-European, Mesopotamian, Egyptian, etc you have order synonymous with good and chaos with bad. Ma'at vs Apep, Gods vs Titans/Giants, etc. They didn't have good and evil as additional separate metaphysical concepts. Nor did Moorcock.

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 26, 2021, 10:10:53 PM

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 26, 2021, 10:00:14 AM
Did they get rid of evil or did they only get rid of the alignment system? Seems like Ravenloft wouldn't work if evil wasn't a thing there (the premise of the setting was the dark powers respond to evil by rewarding, cursing and imprisoning it: this is what makes dark lords, but it operates at a smaller scale with other types of characters)

They're schizophrenic about it. They still describe dark lords (mostly) as 'evil' on occasion. but of course no race is allowed to be evil. Characters in the game can be the children of vampires, hags, or the undead, and not suffer any social stigma. The Vistani are cheered and celebrated by welcoming natives wherever they travel, because in the Nu-Ravenloft villagers believe that Diveristy is Our Strength.

You can apparently choose to start with a Dark Gift, and it has no consequences whatsoever. It's just a cool superpower now.

My God, that sounds ridiculous. Even the leftist YA fantasy fiction dominating shelves makes sure to shoehorn as much racism as possible.

Shadow & Bone has people mistreat the heroine for being half-fantasy!Russian/half-fantasy!Chinese. I found it somewhat grating because they don't even pretend to have a reason for it besides "modern racial politics."

But not mistrusting someone when they reveal their mom was a child-eating fairy tale witch? Who even shares that with other people in casual conversation?

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 26, 2021, 10:10:53 PM

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on May 26, 2021, 10:00:14 AM
Did they get rid of evil or did they only get rid of the alignment system? Seems like Ravenloft wouldn't work if evil wasn't a thing there (the premise of the setting was the dark powers respond to evil by rewarding, cursing and imprisoning it: this is what makes dark lords, but it operates at a smaller scale with other types of characters)

They're schizophrenic about it. They still describe dark lords (mostly) as 'evil' on occasion. but of course no race is allowed to be evil. Characters in the game can be the children of vampires, hags, or the undead, and not suffer any social stigma. The Vistani are cheered and celebrated by welcoming natives wherever they travel, because in the Nu-Ravenloft villagers believe that Diveristy is Our Strength.

You can apparently choose to start with a Dark Gift, and it has no consequences whatsoever. It's just a cool superpower now.

Humancentric Ravenloft always worked best in my opinion. A lot of the race options seem strange. They veered into stuff a bit like that in the past and it never work. It isn't a setting that lends itself to letting people be all kinds of monsters (Vampire was the game about being monsters and Ravenloft was quite the opposite). Even if it is just a blood line for coolness, it contributes to an atmosphere that feels more suited to urban fantasy than the demiplane

They really shouldn't be handing out dark gifts like that. Dark gifts were part of the seduction of the demiplane when you commit evil acts (in black box they were pretty explicit was evil was: pretty much all the deadly sins except sloth attract the dark powers attention). In red box and DoD they codified individual actions as evil. But basically you get a dark gift and a curse when you do something significantly evil and it attracts the dark powers curiosity. The more you go down that path, the more you are warped by evil (gaining powers but also becoming more of a monster). in the end, you literally become a monster, perhaps even a dark lord (at which point you become an NPC).

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 26, 2021, 10:17:18 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on May 26, 2021, 02:07:27 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 25, 2021, 11:00:30 AM
Ravenloft has removed alignment from #dnd5e and Drow are now Good. This is all a Postmodernist plan to move #dnd away from myth and moral absolutes of heroic fantasy into "OMG So Random" soulless play.
#ttrpg #osr

So, in case anyone was still thinking RPGPundit was posting accurate information about D&D:

1) Ravenloft doesn't ban alignment.
2) Ravenloft doesn't make Drow good.
3) The RPGPundit hasn't even read the book he's talking about.

1. Are there Alignment stats for any of the creatures in the new Ravenloft book? And that this is in fact a continuation of a change that actually started with Candlekeep?
Go ahead, look it up if you like, I'll wait.

2. Good Drow, motherfucker: https://comicbook.com/gaming/news/dungeons-dragons-drow-changes-lolth/

3. I don't need to read something to get reliable information about what is or isn't in it. Now, are alignment stats in it, you fucking liar??

Hey. I know I'm not the guy arguing with you in the first place, but I just wanted to respond point by point.

1. Nope. Just like Candlekeep Mysteries. However, they do contain explanations of how to run the monsters without the two-word descriptor of their alignment. The books don't use the previously established alignment system, but I wouldn't call that "banning alignment", as there have been no errata to the DMG/PHB/MM to get rid of alignment or any official text by WotC saying to not use alignment anymore. IMO, there's an important difference between "not including alignment" and "banning alignment".

2. They weren't wrong, though. Drow don't become good in Ravenloft, even if WotC may make a change to their lore in the future. It's not a part of the current book, and 5e has made it clear in the past that drow can be good, like when they included information about Eilistraee in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes.

3. I know that you can get good information about a book without reading it, but there is an important part of the book that is being left out by almost all of the reviewers of it and people complaining about it not including alignment in the stat blocks. This part that I'm speaking of is that the monster descriptions explain the monster's behavior in detail that is, IMHO, more useful than just a two-word label about their alignment. It's more specific about it, and IMO, this is a beneficial change. I have always preferred more in-depth descriptors of the monsters' behavior in the flavor-text instead of just having to go off of "Chaotic Evil? Okay, so like a demon", because that feels pretty two-dimensional to me. However, you're entitled to your opinion on it, I just recommend reading the book to understand what the change is a bit better.