(I mentioned this in the neutral alignment but realized it was off topic and decided to make a new topic.)

I'm sure others have argued at length that alignment isn't realistic. In D&D, or at least some settings, the universe is a warped placed where an entire afterlife exists to reward you for being as evil as can be. If you aren't sufficiently evil then the more evil souls will torture you to advance themselves. Demons feed on suffering and their actions are rational in this context.

The problem is that while it might be rational for an individual to maximize suffering to ensure himself a high place in hell, this behavior is not conducive to maintaining a functional society because mortals are not demons. It breaks my suspension of disbelief that D&D takes evil races for granted. The 5e MM justifies it by saying that orcs and goblin are essentially meat robots incapable of moral judgment, which I find rather silly. Plenty of human societies in history believed it was morally good to victimize the less privileged and cruel not to.

The only way IMO to have literal evil societies would be if they treated evil as some kind of dirty job or duty... a necessary evil, as it were. The "god hates orcs" article outlines such a world view: causing some suffering now prevents death or fates worse than death in the future by appeasing Yaldabaoth.

The irony is that while the orcs are intelligent beings capable of truth, justice and love, their actions condemn them to eternity in the hell which plays by the evil ranking rule I mentioned before.

I know this is way overthinking things but it was the only thing I could think of to have my cake and eat it too. Does it make logical sense or does my reasoning break down at some point?

This again?

First off D&D doesnt per-say state that if you are really evil then you become a demon. Or that you get to enjoy it. Demons and devils sure arent going to tell anyone the truth that what really happens is you spend possibly hundreds or thousands of years as a lemure suffering before they even consider upgrading you. And you are just a footsoldier in a hellish dimension. And you are likely to die over and over and over and over.

And even the higher ups arent enjoying it as inevitibly some party of heroes comes along to bring to ruin careully laid plans thousands of years in the making.

Whereas on the mortal plain you'll get people who are essentially crazy and either dont believe in any of that  torment stuff, dont know, dont care, or think they can somehow beat their doom by becoming gods or becoming immortal, etc.

There will certainly be followers of evil gods who THINK they will be going to a great afterlife. And then get the rude note when they shuffle off the mortal coil. Others are plied with lies and false promises. Remember. EVIL gods. And other trickery.

Evil races is anyones guess. Orcs go to an afterlife of eternal battle with other orks. Slaughtering eachother endlessly. Who knows about the rest.

How human do you want your non-humans?

If your non-humans have same or similar mentalities as humans, then their societies should look and act human or human-ish.

For me, it's fantasy with gods whose aligned power manifests in the world. I have no problem with non-humans, especially created by evil gods, behaving in a totally inhuman manner.

I've read some good OSR articles about eliminating bipedal non-humans like orcs and goblins and just making more human enemies and societies, AKA Sword & Sorcery instead of traditional D&D where you have Good Races vs. Evil Races which makes it easy for players to do the choppy choppy to the non-humans.

For me, the best answer is talk to your players. Some players don't enjoy killing humans in RPGs. Some players enjoy gray lines of morality where every sentient creature must be dealt with as individuals. Other players want easy lines of demarcation for their hobby time. None of these stances is right or wrong.

Playing an evil character is one thing. Most players I have encountered can't tell the difference between being evil and being a dick. But for those who realize that being evil doesn't mean being an insane psychopath, it can bring a lot of fun especially if the player is smart and devious.

Now playing in an evil society is something completely different. It's not just the party that's evil, it's society. The changes the dynamic. Sure, the player characters are evil, but they're not necessarily villains in their society.

Evil societies do exist and have precedence in Dungeons and Dragons and other RPGs. In the Known World/Mystara you have Alphatia, in Greyhawk you have possibly the Valley of the Mage and Scarlet Brotherhood and most definitely the Empire of Iuz. On Toril there's Zhentil Keep and Thay and like the entire Underdark. In Ravenloft there's... just about every Domain. Then there's Planescape, where you can go to places like Ribcage and the Iron City of Dis. Heck in the example you cited, you could let players be petitioners in Baator (or Lemures if you are feeling cruel, as you should) and let them attempt to crawl up the infernal corporate ladder.

The thing you need to keep in mind about evil societies is that they need to be able to continue to exist. That means the denizens have to have some means to continue living and reproducing in order for society to exist. Now in Lawful Evil societies, this is not a problem. Totalitarian governments can be amazingly effective, particularly as you cited, minions are rewarded for their ability to keep the masses oppressed. It gets a little trickier as you shift towards chaos on the alignment spectrum, but there becomes room for more enterprising and innovative folk who are willing to toss anyone under the bus to get ahead and sometimes for entertainment. Drow society is probably a good example of how an inherently chaotic evil society can exist. They organize into clans, and make enemies and alliances as convenient. They also distract themselves from infighting by oppressing and enslaving other races, and getting into scraps with the more powerful ones, before going back to infighting. And when they're not fighting, conversations are usually laced with very polite and very clever yet subtle threats. Someone with a high charisma who is able to move and inspire people with words would be a force to reckon with in that kind of society.

I don't really lump in humanoid races as being inherently evil. Not the usual suspects: Goblins, Orcs, Kobolds. Sure they are brutal and vicious, but so are bears and mountain lions. I often represent Goblins and Kobolds as doing what they need to survive. In the case of Tucker's Kobolds, you can't blame them for being really good at it. When they see a group of player characters, those races probably act like they do because the pretty races are the ones who cause pain so it's best to kill them first, and some of the smaller ones are pretty tasty roasted on a spit. I'm not saying they are not evil, but that they are not inherently evil. Which is why some of them say, "Screw this, I'm gonna join society, drink wine and smoke cigars by a fireplace." and become the odd non evil monster PC. Now of course there are exceptions. Hobgoblin society is very likely Lawful Evil, and very rigidly enforced. Those guys like their rules so much it's entrenched in their culture and tradition.

The thing is when representing an evil society, you do not have to remove aspects which make it functional such as an economy and social elements. Trade is still going to happen, you're still going to need tailors and armorers and farmers and carpenters etc. What's going to be difference is the remove of compassion and the dehumanization of those who are your lessers as well as the realization that your betters see you as expendible. So you go through life using the ones who are useful and discarding them when they serve no purpose while you try and be an asset to those above you, until you can work out how to remove them and take their place.

I got tired of my players being vicious amoral bastards so most of my D&D 5e campaign has been in an area labeled "Evil Kingdoms."  Here gods of profitable sex work and vigorous foreign policy is common place.  The villagers love their Warlocks, a shocked PC wizard was carried through a village by a mob, joyfully cheering,"A WITCH A  WITCH! HOORAY!, He cured my gout!"  They set out to kill the king of Throndar  and when they asked for a break in the fighting to eat lunch (thinking a short rest would be good) he agreed and by the end of the meal they were all in his service (he wasn't really worried, 20th level fighter with a 20th level Wizard and Cleric right behind him (I warned them it was a bad idea okay?), he lets people take their shots and redirects them against his enemies, he destroyed the PC's rebel army by paying off the mercenaries they hired and proceeded to thank the party for helping him root out all the rebels and malcontents.

The Wizard just recently broke into the doorless council chambers of a city where the local vampire lord, lich lord, head of the merchant's guild, The leading lawyer, master wizard, high cleric of nihilism, and various other were meeting with emissaries of the lower planes about the distribution of the souls of sacrificed slaves.  The wizard got seduced by a succubus who helped him recruit a red dragonborn sorcerer for his current service of the evil king.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;949061(I mentioned this in the neutral alignment but realized it was off topic and decided to make a new topic.)

I'm sure others have argued at length that alignment isn't realistic. In D&D, or at least some settings, the universe is a warped placed where an entire afterlife exists to reward you for being as evil as can be. If you aren't sufficiently evil then the more evil souls will torture you to advance themselves. Demons feed on suffering and their actions are rational in this context.

The problem is that while it might be rational for an individual to maximize suffering to ensure himself a high place in hell, this behavior is not conducive to maintaining a functional society because mortals are not demons. It breaks my suspension of disbelief that D&D takes evil races for granted. The 5e MM justifies it by saying that orcs and goblin are essentially meat robots incapable of moral judgment, which I find rather silly. Plenty of human societies in history believed it was morally good to victimize the less privileged and cruel not to.

The only way IMO to have literal evil societies would be if they treated evil as some kind of dirty job or duty... a necessary evil, as it were. The "god hates orcs" article outlines such a world view: causing some suffering now prevents death or fates worse than death in the future by appeasing Yaldabaoth.

The irony is that while the orcs are intelligent beings capable of truth, justice and love, their actions condemn them to eternity in the hell which plays by the evil ranking rule I mentioned before.

I know this is way overthinking things but it was the only thing I could think of to have my cake and eat it too. Does it make logical sense or does my reasoning break down at some point?

You only have evil leadership. Societies as a whole are never evil without help from assholes with some grudge or hatred of something/somebody.

I think the problem is combining roleplaying aligment with christian views of hell.
Of course this will not work out.

Even if evil gods are lying it will not work out when people can talk back to their dead.
So I assume that in evil afterlife you get to prey on and torture the group of infidels and of the good ones if you think you can get away with it.
They have to give the evil mortals a halfway decent chance to make it pay out to keep this business running.

Lastely it is similar how it works on earth. You don´t run an evil society with all people being evil and fighting completely among yourself. You point the aggression on other people and try to siphon as much as you can into your own purse as you can get along with without loosing the support of the evil masses. Evil alone as a self styled predator doesn´t really produce, so you can´t seriously exploit them.

Quote from: David Johansen;949099I got tired of my players being vicious amoral bastards so most of my D&D 5e campaign has been in an area labeled "Evil Kingdoms."

Your campaign sounds awesome!!

"If any of the Wise should with this Ring overthrow the Lord of Mordor, using his own arts, he would then set himself on Sauron's throne, and yet another Dark Lord would appear. And that is another reason why the Ring should be destroyed: as long as it is in the world it will be a danger even to the Wise. For nothing is evil in the beginning. Even Sauron was not so. I fear to take the Ring to hide it. I will not take the Ring to wield it."

Quote from: Maarzan;949117I think the problem is combining roleplaying aligment with christian views of hell.
Of course this will not work out.

Even if evil gods are lying it will not work out when people can talk back to their dead.
So I assume that in evil afterlife you get to prey on and torture the group of infidels and of the good ones if you think you can get away with it.
They have to give the evil mortals a halfway decent chance to make it pay out to keep this business running.

Lastely it is similar how it works on earth. You don´t run an evil society with all people being evil and fighting completely among yourself. You point the aggression on other people and try to siphon as much as you can into your own purse as you can get along with without loosing the support of the evil masses. Evil alone as a self styled predator doesn´t really produce, so you can´t seriously exploit them.

You almost understand and get how silly the concept is. Good job trying to explain the obvious. The thing is your intended audience is ignorant.

Would German fascism have built a sustainable society? What alignment were the Aztecs?

Quote from: Voros;949139Would German fascism have built a sustainable society? What alignment were the Aztecs?

No, the question is would there be are there more leaders after meeting another leader with just as big balls and an agenda opposite of their's.
See us European types in the 1500-1700's defined slavery much differently then 1500-1700's Africans.

Sure, evil societies can flourish, just look at the real world where there are several examples of evil societies that survive quite well.

In an fantasy evil society, Might is Right is probably the overriding principle. If you are bigger, stronger or more powerful than someone else then you can force them to do things for you. So, evil clerics force their congregations to do evil things, evil fighters round up the local populace and abuse them, evil wizards perform experiments on the local people. Another principle is that people do evil things to advance up the social ladder, so they might know it is wrong but do it anyway, thus becoming what they originally hated, evil is very seductive in many ways. If you see that evil bosses get fed the best food and don't starve, have their pick of the women and are dripping with gold and jewellry then you might try to emulate them to get the same rewards. Rebellions are put down with terror and with massive force, people are encouraged to tell tales or to hand others in as traitors, evil is considered the norm or even desirable, evil cults spread their doctrine that explains why this is a good thing.

Quote from: Voros;949139Would German fascism have built a sustainable society? What alignment were the Aztecs?

It didn´t intend to be an all evil society. That is why they declared a lot of people as subhumans to get exploited or killed and robbed and started to prey on neighbor countries. To be evil you need victims.
They also didn´t instruct the common people to be "evil" but to be quiet, obedient and diligent people, not like the picture painted from the abys with rampaging evil all around.

I generally find it's best not to have detectable alignment (eg 4e D&D, 5e D&D) or else have Lawful-Neutral-Chaotic without Good & Evil (classic D&D). Furthermore I definitely prefer to keep the afterlife unconfirmed; Speak with Dead certainly doesn't get you reports from Heaven, it just (per all RAW I've seen) gives you the critter up until moment of death.

I do allow very occasional trips to the Underworld to consult the souls of the dead, in the manner of Greek & Norse myth (depending on campaign area), but this Underworld is a bleak place that resembles the 4e D&D Shadowfell, not Heaven or Hell.

As far as Orcs go, they basically believe the exact same thing as Vikings - brave Orc warriors who die fighting get to battle forever alongside their gods, while all the rest go to the Underworld. Evil & Good doesn't enter into it. Other races like Drow believe in reincarnation - I'd think a common Drow belief would be that spiders are the souls/spirits of the dead. Nothing to do with the Abyss, though the most honoured drow dead may reincarnate as Yochlol in service to Lolth.