Quote from: SHARK on May 16, 2024, 11:01:03 AMGreetings!

I read the entire article. I find it interesting how this clown sounds *exactly* like all the other Woke morons, wallowing in being eternal victims, while at the same time exalting themselves, their personal experience, their family, and their heritage over everyone else, most importantly normal White people.

Keep crying, bitch. You got fucking conquered. You, and your entire people got conquered because you were fucking weak.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

There is nothing more pathetic than a member of the losing side who, rather than fantasizing about bloody revenge (which I can at least understand), instead whines and moans that those who defeated him are not as weak, servile, and toothless as he.  This not only why they lose, it is why they deserve to lose.

Oh, and I bet I've got more Cherokee in my heritage than he does.  Of course, I don't romanticize and fetishize the stone-age culture of my ancestors, so it probably doesn't count...

Quote from: Brad on May 16, 2024, 09:22:54 AMI'm not reading any of that.

This is the correct take, and Brad continues to have the the most based post per byte.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on May 16, 2024, 08:21:33 PM

Quote from: SHARK on May 16, 2024, 11:01:03 AMGreetings!

I read the entire article. I find it interesting how this clown sounds *exactly* like all the other Woke morons, wallowing in being eternal victims, while at the same time exalting themselves, their personal experience, their family, and their heritage over everyone else, most importantly normal White people.

Keep crying, bitch. You got fucking conquered. You, and your entire people got conquered because you were fucking weak.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

There is nothing more pathetic than a member of the losing side who, rather than fantasizing about bloody revenge (which I can at least understand), instead whines and moans that those who defeated him are not as weak, servile, and toothless as he.  This not only why they lose, it is why they deserve to lose.

Oh, and I bet I've got more Cherokee in my heritage than he does.  Of course, I don't romanticize and fetishize the stone-age culture of my ancestors, so it probably doesn't count...

Greetings!

Cherokee, huh? Interesting! I am part Cherokee as well! A very interesting and proud tribe of people. The Indians as a whole though were absolutely primitive, and also fractured and disunited. Excellent point too, about not romanticizing and fetishizing the stone-age culture of your ancestors.

You know, it is interesting how even *back then*--there were debates within the tribes--like the Cherokee--between trying to keep the whole traditional culture, or embracing the new culture of the White Man, and Christianity. This debate raged with passion back and forth, and inspired endless drama, hatreds, and long-standing feuds. In the end though, change is inevitable, new ways must be embraced.

Oh, and this clown author of the article? Evidently he is also queer, of course, and lives in British Columbia, where he is a college professor. Teaches Critical Indigenous Studies, English, blah, blah, blah. Pretty standard profile for the long line of Woke Demagogues. They all use the same arguments, the same criticisms, of D&D. And, overall, their entire personal anecdotal profiles of themselves are also always strikingly the same--they are all typically women, minorities, or gay or queer men. Always full of so much personal trauma and childhood isolation of never fitting in. Always living their lives confused, and angst-filled, often featuring them rebelling against their family, society, and everything. Even their related high school experiences--they are all the same. They were always the ugly, fat gay guy or fat lesbian girl, or some ugly thin version, but always the misfit and the social reject.

These people are full of hatred, envy, jealousy, and bitterness. Like this clown. He is in his 50's, and he is still cherishing his early high school years of being a social misfit.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on May 16, 2024, 01:30:39 AM

QuoteAnd soon the Tolkienesque template of D&D began to chafe, as did the varied inheritors of Tolkien's literary imaginings. (The other great influence on D&D's world-building, Robert E. Howard, especially his Conan works, held no appeal for me whatsoever, as there was no beauty, no grace, no romance—just blood, brutality, butchery, and overt racism.) As much as I loved Middle-earth, it was still a world where lordship was borne in the blood, where inheriting country gentry were served faithfully by loving and dutiful servants, of the uncertain triumph of "Western civilization" over the dark and fallen peoples who stood against it. And while Tolkien's orcs and their filmic, gaming, and media iterations have been shaped by and expanded on savagist anti-Black and anti-Asian stereotypes, they're also informed by stereotypical ideas about Indigenous primitivism (as are his Drúedain, the reclusive Woses who aid the Rohirrim on their way to the Battle of the Pelennor Fields).

I'm convinced this stupid motherfucker has never read The Lord of the Rings, let alone any other part of Tolkien's legendarium to spout such dishonest pseudo-inllectual bullshit. Never mind the fact he sounds like someone that probably bullied real D&D players in high school and only 'saw the light' when he figured out he could grift.

I'm pretty sure he's never read any Howard either. No beauty? Good luck finding an ugly woman in Howard's works. They're there, but few and far between. No grace? In Conan's first story, he's saved at the will of a god to save the world from evil. No romance? Conan often gave up his dreams to save a woman. And these claims of "overt racism" never seem to have any evidence. I think the thing that they despise there is the chapter in The Hour of the Dragon, where Conan frees a boat-load of black slaves, and leads them to slaughter their white masters. North American leftists will never get over how much that feels like what the Republicans did to the Democrats in the American Civil War.

I'm not going to read that.  I have already read it anyway.  Without reading it, I know exactly what it says and what terminology the writer uses.  I know because these things are all the same.  They make the same stupid claims.  They all make the same misrepresentations.  They phrase them the same way.  The writers all have the same anecdotes.  I don't need to read it to know that it's a reiteration of the same bullshit talking points we have seen these people using for decades.  It was worthless stupidity all of the other times and it's worthless stupidity this time too.   

Quote from: Brad on May 16, 2024, 01:10:50 PM

Quote from: Omega on May 16, 2024, 11:58:54 AMWhat "logic"?

There is no justification except on the minds of raving lunatics.

Considering there are actual blacks mentioned peripherally in Tolkien's lore, it makes the whole "orcs are black" argument even dumber than it sounds on its face.

Not only that, Tolkien described orcs as follows: "...they are (or were) squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes; in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types."
There's not the least hint that orcs are stand-ins for black people. If anyone could be offended by orcs, it would be Mongolians, but I doubt anyone has ever asked them.

Quote from: David Johansen on May 16, 2024, 07:55:52 PMI think part of the problem is that many of these writers and commentators are ashamed that they like and play D&D and have to tear it down to show they are really grown up adults with adult attitudes and understanding.

What is funny is that there are plenty of notable conservatives like Michelle Malkin who are not in the least embarrassed by enjoying Dungeons & Dragons.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1772229319511213

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 20, 2024, 04:28:25 AM

Quote from: David Johansen on May 16, 2024, 07:55:52 PMI think part of the problem is that many of these writers and commentators are ashamed that they like and play D&D and have to tear it down to show they are really grown up adults with adult attitudes and understanding.

What is funny is that there are plenty of notable conservatives like Michelle Malkin who are not in the least embarrassed by enjoying Dungeons & Dragons.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1772229319511213

Greetings!

Oh yeah, Jeff! Michelle Malkin is such a joy! The girl is definitely OLD SCHOOL. I remember seeing her hold up her original 1E AD&D Dungeon Master's Guide! She has been playing for a very long time, just like most of us. It's funny, too, as she has been married forever, and I imagine she has been playing D&D with her husband and her friends for many years, too. I remember seeing her video where she talked about how she loves D&D, and plays every week!

Can you imagine being in a campaign with Michelle Malkin as the DM? *Laughing* She is so sharp and fun, such a campaign would be very awesome, too!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Krazz on May 18, 2024, 03:50:03 PM

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on May 16, 2024, 01:30:39 AM

QuoteAnd soon the Tolkienesque template of D&D began to chafe, as did the varied inheritors of Tolkien's literary imaginings. (The other great influence on D&D's world-building, Robert E. Howard, especially his Conan works, held no appeal for me whatsoever, as there was no beauty, no grace, no romance—just blood, brutality, butchery, and overt racism.) As much as I loved Middle-earth, it was still a world where lordship was borne in the blood, where inheriting country gentry were served faithfully by loving and dutiful servants, of the uncertain triumph of "Western civilization" over the dark and fallen peoples who stood against it. And while Tolkien's orcs and their filmic, gaming, and media iterations have been shaped by and expanded on savagist anti-Black and anti-Asian stereotypes, they're also informed by stereotypical ideas about Indigenous primitivism (as are his Drúedain, the reclusive Woses who aid the Rohirrim on their way to the Battle of the Pelennor Fields).

I'm convinced this stupid motherfucker has never read The Lord of the Rings, let alone any other part of Tolkien's legendarium to spout such dishonest pseudo-inllectual bullshit. Never mind the fact he sounds like someone that probably bullied real D&D players in high school and only 'saw the light' when he figured out he could grift.

I'm pretty sure he's never read any Howard either. No beauty? Good luck finding an ugly woman in Howard's works. They're there, but few and far between. No grace? In Conan's first story, he's saved at the will of a god to save the world from evil. No romance? Conan often gave up his dreams to save a woman. And these claims of "overt racism" never seem to have any evidence. I think the thing that they despise there is the chapter in The Hour of the Dragon, where Conan frees a boat-load of black slaves, and leads them to slaughter their white masters. North American leftists will never get over how much that feels like what the Republicans did to the Democrats in the American Civil War.

What the guy is parroting there is the common stereotype of Conan among people who've never read Howard. It's a stereotype that arises from people parodying the many 80s knockoffs of the film and comic book adaptations of Conan, so it's about 5 steps removed from the original.

Also, bear in mind that the people we're complaining about start from the conclusion that they don't like D&D and then go in looking for reasons to dislike it.  Much like my friend on his return from church school.  (after which he decided Billy Joel was God so his parents bought him a piano)

Just my two cents on Conan.....

Even a very cursory reading of the Conan stories by Howard would show that Conan was never a rapist. In all honesty, from reading about Robert E Howard, I sincerely doubt that he would have written about a hero who forced himself on women in his stories because Howard would have considered that to be villainous.

And the pulps probably wouldn't buy a story with a rape scene in it.

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 20, 2024, 02:29:06 PMJust my two cents on Conan.....

Even a very cursory reading of the Conan stories by Howard would show that Conan was never a rapist. In all honesty, from reading about Robert E Howard, I sincerely doubt that he would have written about a hero who forced himself on women in his stories because Howard would have considered that to be villainous.

And the pulps probably wouldn't buy a story with a rape scene in it.

It is implied in one story. Think Red nails? But never acted on. But that is all the fuel the woke need in order to start screeching "wapist!" Look at some of the postings here on the Shield Hero anime. Same damn thing. In the anime no such thing happens. In the original litenovel the character, who has been robbed and falsely accused of rape by a woman, briefly has some very dark thoughts. And then tosses that aside and moves on. But nooooo. He is teh horriblez wapist!

Quote from: Krazz on May 18, 2024, 03:50:03 PMI'm pretty sure he's never read any Howard either. No beauty? Good luck finding an ugly woman in Howard's works. They're there, but few and far between. No grace? In Conan's first story, he's saved at the will of a god to save the world from evil. No romance? Conan often gave up his dreams to save a woman. And these claims of "overt racism" never seem to have any evidence.

I'm not endorsing all the claims of the article from the original post. However, this last claim is ridiculous. There is tons of evidence of racism on the part of R.E. Howard. Here is the start of his story "The Last White Man",

Quote from: R.E. HowardTHE MAN SHIVERED in the coolness of the early morning. He shifted his body to relieve the pressure on his elbows.

Cautiously he peered up over the great boulder in front of him, and down the mountain side. Fire twinkled there and the man cursed. An obscene song floated up to him and his curses deepened. The song was in a rich, guttural voice.

The man was a wonder, physically. Over six feet in height, his chest and shoulders were those of a giant. Weighing far over two hundred pounds, he yet gave the impression of sinuous speed. His face was sullen, savage, almost primitive, small black eyes glittering through tangled strands of sandy hair. In one hand he clutched a rifle. A curved scimitar of surprising proportions lay beside him.

He was a splendid example of a wonderful race. A race which reached physical perfection, sank to the depths of degeneracy and then regained the heights just before their fall. He was the last. He was thinking as he lay there, watching the camps of his enemies.

What heights his race had reached before luxuries, idleness and pleasures had sapped their might; had made of them a race of degenerate weaklings. He cursed beneath his breath.

There had been an age when his race had ruled the world. Their cities dotted the fertile plains. Their ships had furrowed the seas, bringing back the wealth of every land. Their armies had gone forth conquering and subjugating.

And to add a few quotes from later in the story:

Quote from: R.E. HowardAt first the white race held its own.

But not for long. The blacks were physical giants, mighty fighting organisms, whose highest wish was slaughter and plunder.

That century long warfare! The man thrilled with a savage pride as he reviewed the wonderful battle the whites gave, overwhelmed as they were with odds of a hundred to one.

...

Quote from: R.E. HowardThe last white man laughed with savage, unholy glee.

The black race was doomed. They were destroyers, not builders. When they slew the white men, progress ceased. The blacks reverted to savagery. They did not even know the art of making weapons.

They had destroyed and could not rebuild. And they were going back to bestial savagery, and to a slaughtering of one another which even their animal-like rate of birth could not control.

It was dawning. The last white man looked about him; gathered his weapons. The rush would soon come.

The full story is pretty short. One can read it here:

https://archive.org/details/howard-collector-05-1964-summer/page/22/mode/2up

Now, I still greatly enjoy Howard's writing. I ran several one-shots of the Conan RPG, like this one:

https://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/brawnythews/

Still, the evidence of his racism is impossible to ignore. It's a question of putting it in context and interpreting it.

Quote from: jhkim on May 20, 2024, 03:15:21 PM

Quote from: Krazz on May 18, 2024, 03:50:03 PMI'm pretty sure he's never read any Howard either. No beauty? Good luck finding an ugly woman in Howard's works. They're there, but few and far between. No grace? In Conan's first story, he's saved at the will of a god to save the world from evil. No romance? Conan often gave up his dreams to save a woman. And these claims of "overt racism" never seem to have any evidence.

I'm not endorsing all the claims of the article from the original post. However, this last claim is ridiculous. There is tons of evidence of racism on the part of R.E. Howard. Here is the start of his story "The Last White Man",

Quote from: R.E. HowardTHE MAN SHIVERED in the coolness of the early morning. He shifted his body to relieve the pressure on his elbows.

Cautiously he peered up over the great boulder in front of him, and down the mountain side. Fire twinkled there and the man cursed. An obscene song floated up to him and his curses deepened. The song was in a rich, guttural voice.

The man was a wonder, physically. Over six feet in height, his chest and shoulders were those of a giant. Weighing far over two hundred pounds, he yet gave the impression of sinuous speed. His face was sullen, savage, almost primitive, small black eyes glittering through tangled strands of sandy hair. In one hand he clutched a rifle. A curved scimitar of surprising proportions lay beside him.

He was a splendid example of a wonderful race. A race which reached physical perfection, sank to the depths of degeneracy and then regained the heights just before their fall. He was the last. He was thinking as he lay there, watching the camps of his enemies.

What heights his race had reached before luxuries, idleness and pleasures had sapped their might; had made of them a race of degenerate weaklings. He cursed beneath his breath.

There had been an age when his race had ruled the world. Their cities dotted the fertile plains. Their ships had furrowed the seas, bringing back the wealth of every land. Their armies had gone forth conquering and subjugating.

And to add a few quotes from later in the story:

Quote from: R.E. HowardAt first the white race held its own.

But not for long. The blacks were physical giants, mighty fighting organisms, whose highest wish was slaughter and plunder.

That century long warfare! The man thrilled with a savage pride as he reviewed the wonderful battle the whites gave, overwhelmed as they were with odds of a hundred to one.

...

Quote from: R.E. HowardThe last white man laughed with savage, unholy glee.

The black race was doomed. They were destroyers, not builders. When they slew the white men, progress ceased. The blacks reverted to savagery. They did not even know the art of making weapons.

They had destroyed and could not rebuild. And they were going back to bestial savagery, and to a slaughtering of one another which even their animal-like rate of birth could not control.

It was dawning. The last white man looked about him; gathered his weapons. The rush would soon come.

The full story is pretty short. One can read it here:

https://archive.org/details/howard-collector-05-1964-summer/page/22/mode/2up

Now, I still greatly enjoy Howard's writing. I ran several one-shots of the Conan RPG, like this one:

https://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/brawnythews/

Still, the evidence of his racism is impossible to ignore. It's a question of putting it in context and interpreting it.

The post you quoted specifically referred to racism in Conan (by Howard), which was the topic being discussed.  You provided an example of a story by Howard, but having nothing to do with Conan.  Either you can't read, or you are just trying to change the subject.  Please provide evidence of racism in Conan if you wish to dispute the post.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on May 20, 2024, 04:48:30 PMThe post you quoted specifically referred to racism in Conan (by Howard), which was the topic being discussed.  You provided an example of a story by Howard, but having nothing to do with Conan.  Either you can't read, or you are just trying to change the subject.  Please provide evidence of racism in Conan if you wish to dispute the post.

Fair enough. Here are some excerpts from "Shadows in Zamboula".

Quote from: R.E. HowardWhich proves what?' grunted the Cimmerian.

'Aram Baksh is a demon! Nay, in this accursed city which Stygians built and which Hyrkanians rule—where white, brown and black folk mingle together to produce hybrids of all unholy hues and breeds—who can tell who is a man, and who a demon in disguise? Aram Baksh is a demon in the form of a man! At night he assumes his true guise and carries his guests off into the desert where his fellow demons from the waste meet in conclave.'

'Why does he always carry off strangers?' asked Conan skeptically.

'The people of the city would not suffer him to slay their people, but they care naught for the strangers who fall into his hands. Conan, you are of the West, and know not the secrets of this ancient land. But, since the beginning of happenings, the demons of the desert have worshipped Yog, the Lord of the Empty Abodes, with fire—fire that devours human victims.

...

Quote from: R.E. HowardIt was a gigantic black man, naked but for a loin-cloth. One hand still grasped a knotty-headed bludgeon. The fellow's kinky wool was built up into horn-like spindles with twigs and dried mud. This barbaric coiffure had given the head its misshapen appearance in the starlight. Provided with a clue to the riddle, Conan pushed back the thick red lips, and grunted as he stared down at teeth filed to points.

He understood now the mystery of the strangers who had disappeared from the house of Aram Baksh; the riddle of the black drum thrumming out there beyond the palm groves, and of that pit of charred bones—that pit where strange meat might be roasted under the stars, while black beasts squatted about to glut a hideous hunger. The man on the floor was a cannibal slave from Darfar.

There were many of his kind in the city. Cannibalism was not tolerated openly in Zamboula. But Conan knew now why people locked themselves in so securely at night, and why even beggars shunned the open alleys and doorless ruins.

...

Quote from: R.E. HowardCannibalism was more than a perverted appetite with the black men of Darfar; it was an integral element of their ghastly cult. The black vultures were already in conclave. But whatever flesh filled their bellies that night, it would not be his.

To reach Aram Baksh he must climb one of the walls which separated the small enclosure from the main compound. They were high, meant to keep out the man-eaters; but Conan was no swamp-bred black man; his thews had been steeled in boyhood on the sheer cliffs of his native hills. He was standing at the foot of the nearer wall when a cry echoed under the trees.

...

Quote from: R.E. Howard'Yes, let us hasten!' begged the girl, almost hysterical again. 'My lover is wandering somewhere in the streets alone. The negroes may take him.'

'A devil of a custom this is!' growled Conan, as he led the way toward the city, paralleling the road but keeping behind the huts and straggling trees. 'Why don't the citizens clean out these black dogs?'

'They are valuable slaves,' murmured the girl. 'There are so many of them they might revolt if they were denied the flesh for which they lust. The people of Zamboula know they skulk the streets at night, and all are careful to remain within locked doors, except when something unforeseen happens, as it did to me. The blacks prey on anything they catch, but they seldom catch anybody but strangers. The people of Zamboula are not concerned with the strangers that pass through the city.

...

Quote from: R.E. HowardDrawing his foot from the stirrup he stole to the angle and peered around it. Three men were moving down the road toward the palm groves, and from their slouching gait he knew they were negroes. They halted at his low call, bunching themselves as he strode toward them, his sword in his hand. Their eyes gleamed whitely in the starlight. Their brutish lust shone in their ebony faces, but they knew their three cudgels could not prevail against his sword, just as he knew it.