Quote from: jhkim on May 24, 2024, 01:51:49 PM.....

I've got to ask why you keep posting here. You never argue in good faith and usually choose whatever the most woke position possible is in order to cause division. Is that your purpose? To frustrate the forum users of this Bastion of Free Speech so that they throw their hands up in disgust and leave? Is your goal to destroy worthwhile conversation here to the point that it no longer is an actual forum for discussion?

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 25, 2024, 11:52:24 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 25, 2024, 08:50:33 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 25, 2024, 03:43:32 PMCan a story be racist? No, but the characters in the story can be and sometimes must be in order to have an effective story.

If characters in a story are racist, does that mean the author is racist? No, because that same logic would indicate that any horror writer must be a murderous sociopath since they write about them. Mark Twain is not racist because he wrote Huckleberry Finn and Harper Lee is not a racist because he wrote To Kill A Mockingbird . Thus Robert E Howard was not a racist for writing The Last White Man .

I agree that the presence of a racist character doesn't make a story racist. But stories do have a message that is different than the views of any single character.

For example, in "Birth of a Nation" (1915), pure black characters are portrayed as all simple, stupid, and superstitious. Black characters can even be heroic - like the beefy enslaved house maid who defends her lady against raping Union soldiers with her fists. But they are ultimately shown as simple-minded and in need of firm control, like the early scene when a black man sees the main character who accidentally has a white sheet over him and runs away for fear of a ghost. This becomes the inspiration for the white robes and hoods of the KKK, who in the end heroically keep superstitious black people away from the voting polls.

The film portrays these as an objective (camera-eye) view of events, not just the point of view of an individual racist character.

As soon as you brought up the film Birth of a Nation, I knew that this was just another attempt by you to mislead people.

Quote from: jhkim on May 25, 2024, 08:50:33 PMLikewise, in Howard's "The Last White Man", the world history describes that the negroes in Africa ally with the Orientals to invade Europe and wipe out the hated white men, continuing until there is only one white man left. That's not portrayed as a delusion of the titular character. It's portrayed as events that happened. The offensive part about that isn't the use of the n-word. It's that the people of Africa are portrayed as intent and acting on wholesale racial slaughter.

Events in South Africa of white farmers being murdered for their land show that this is indeed possible.

Quote from: jhkim on May 25, 2024, 08:50:33 PMIt doesn't matter whether the titular character is racist or not. It's a question of how the events reflect on the races.

---

To be clear, there are some stories with unreliable narrators. For example, the film "Rashomon" (1950) is famous for having three characters describe events that are then filmed, but they are all contradictory. Even though things appear on film, they might or might not have actually happened. But the existence of "Rashomon" doesn't mean that we can say "Birth of a Nation" isn't racist because maybe the camera's point of view isn't what really happened. There is nothing in "Birth of a Nation" to suggest that the camera view is unreliable.

Likewise, there is nothing in "The Last White Man" to say that the world events described are a delusion.

So what?

And what does this have to do with Conan, anyways?

Quit trying to gaslight people and instead try to argue the premise. Or do you believe that all literary authors are their works of fiction?

Greetings!

Hey there Jeff! You know, I have a whole collection of Conan books. I have read them all. I can't say that I have ever seen REH, the author, as being racist. Strangely, I have needed Leftist shills to lecture me on REH's alleged racism over and over again.

And yet, I remain undeterred. I love the Conan stories. REH is a huge, foundational figure to fantasy writing, Pulp genres, and more. Such a brilliant, gifted master!

Just like with your quoted examples, somehow we are arguing about an onscure story, "The Last White Man." Not a Conan story, as you noted well. It is by REH, though, so on that count Jhkim is correct. Interesting though, as you especially highlighted, even in "The Last White Man", it is *The CHARACTER IN THE STORY* that appears to be racist--not the real-world author, REH.

Strange that Jhkim has not addressed this important observation. Instead, Jhkim wants to ponder on REH being racist.

I always find these kinds of discussions of limited interest with Leftists, because it ultimately turns out to really being an exercise in attempted mind reading, trying to guess with certainty!--what the author genuinely felt and thought *then* or at different years of the author's life. All in the effort to conclude that REH is a terrible, horrible racist. Then it devolves into being a struggle session, essentially.

I just sigh and enjoy smoking my pipe, and enjoying reading the Conan stories. I continue to hold fast to my considered judgement that REH is a giant father of fantasy and pulp story writing, and was a gifted, brilliant genius, and a master at his craft.

Does it make me a terrible man that I don't give a fuck about if REH was racist? Or I don't give a fuck about his relationship with women? Or what his relationship with his parents or family was like? All of these kinds of speculations about a man no one here or anywhere has known, as REH is of course long deceased. As an aside, I have noticed that Leftists love taking a conversation ostensibly about Conan, and instead of talking about REH's skills and talent as an author, as a writer--the Leftists *ALWAYS* seek to change the discussion into a huge struggle session.

As I smoke my pipe, and enjoy a fresh cup of coffee, I can't help but wonder how angry and sad and unhappy Leftists' are as people. Leftists enjoy doing this all the time, with every kind of author, and every kind of subject.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Is this a good thread to post a tutorial about how to block people on this site?

Quote from: BadApple on May 26, 2024, 07:39:17 AMIs this a good thread to post a tutorial about how to block people on this site?

Nah.  If you were going to block anyone, there are a couple of complete trolls who should definitely be first on the list.  Jhkim does talk about RPGs (sometimes).

Honestly, he's kind of funny.  It's why I've nicknamed him the "jhkimAIbot."  Look at any thread he posts in.  Usually, he takes a small, mostly inconsequential, fragment of the discussion (you know, like whether REH was racist in a discussion about some dingleberry's ridiculous evaluation of D&D), disagrees with it, and posts his personal "experience" or interpretation as his evidence that this minor point is wrong.  He never engages with the larger point (as you can see from his avoidance of my questions for him... twice!).  He is the personification of the internet meme "Well, ackshually..."  Once you see the pattern, it's impossible to unsee.

Really, I feel kind of sorry for him.  I'm sure he's sitting at home, convinced he's owning us chuds, and bringing civilization to the savages on the RPGSite (though he could never frame it that way... because "colonization" and [insert woke verbiage here]).  But if you look at all of his commentary, it is all hopelessly bound up in himself.  I ran, I've seen, I think, etc.  He can't even have a conversation unless we all agree on the definition of "racist" (by which he means, "agree to use my definition").  This is a dude who basically argued in another thread that his "Christianity" doesn't include the sins he's committed which are directly labeled in the Bible, by Jesus himself, as sins.  But this is typical of leftists.  Part of what makes them woke/leftists is the inability to separate themselves from whatever concept they are discussing.  It's all about them, even when it isn't.

So, no, personally I wouldn't block him.  There's too much to learn from him... but probably not what he thinks he's teaching...

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 26, 2024, 12:00:33 AM

Quote from: jhkim on May 24, 2024, 01:51:49 PM.....

I've got to ask why you keep posting here. You never argue in good faith and usually choose whatever the most woke position possible is in order to cause division. Is that your purpose? To frustrate the forum users of this Bastion of Free Speech so that they throw their hands up in disgust and leave? Is your goal to destroy worthwhile conversation here to the point that it no longer is an actual forum for discussion?

jhkim is usually arguing in better faith than half the opposition... But the loud voices seem to win, or shout him down, too often.

I think I've said before how I've lost players from my work game by having the least hint of anti-PC racism; I'm a little more hopeful this time, since the player who was told "Hey, tieflings are by-the-book subject to pretty strong prejudice and abuse, and <here's their exact status in this world that helps explain how that evolved, whether or not it's justified>" went ahead to play one anyway, (ab)using 5e's easy cantrips to at least gesture towards hiding his nature in causal interactions even knowing it'll slip out over long contact.

But these players are still a bit sensitive to standard-to-my-expectations xenophobia / fantasy racism. Dwarves overly proud of their backwater town? Humans scorning the dwarven merchants for being over-focused on profit and not willing to stay around for the feast day? (That last one was meant to be purely cultural, but they saw the racial lens fit too...) We'll see how they shake out, particularly if they start exploring more the goblin vs dwarf divide.

As a general note, I'm attending KublaCon this weekend, so I haven't had a lot of time for my replies. I'm trying to keep up and eventually get to the points made here, but it will take some time to get to them all.

Quote from: SHARK on May 26, 2024, 06:34:05 AMJust like with your quoted examples, somehow we are arguing about an onscure story, "The Last White Man." Not a Conan story, as you noted well. It is by REH, though, so on that count Jhkim is correct. Interesting though, as you especially highlighted, even in "The Last White Man", it is *The CHARACTER IN THE STORY* that appears to be racist--not the real-world author, REH.

Strange that Jhkim has not addressed this important observation. Instead, Jhkim wants to ponder on REH being racist.

I addressed this specifically in Reply #87. In "The Last White Man", the racism of the story is not the racism of the character.

In the future described in the story, blacks in Africa invade Europe to wipe out the hated white men, and continue to invade America and wipe out all the whites there - joined by the 50% African-Americans in the U.S. The racism in the story is expressed through the larger events that happen and the descriptions, not by the character being racist.

Quote from: SHARK on May 26, 2024, 06:34:05 AMDoes it make me a terrible man that I don't give a fuck about if REH was racist? Or I don't give a fuck about his relationship with women? Or what his relationship with his parents or family was like? All of these kinds of speculations about a man no one here or anywhere has known, as REH is of course long deceased. As an aside, I have noticed that Leftists love taking a conversation ostensibly about Conan, and instead of talking about REH's skills and talent as an author, as a writer--the Leftists *ALWAYS* seek to change the discussion into a huge struggle session.

If you don't give a fuck about whether REH was racist, then it would be no big deal to just admit that he was racist and just go on to talking about how great a writer he is and how we run our Conan games.

The thing that makes this a "huge struggle session" isn't an inherent quality of my stance. It's that we have a strong disagreement over the point. It takes two sides both committed to make this into a struggle. In some other social groups, the point might be over quickly either way.

In general, though, I enjoy not talking in an echo chamber, and I like a good argument.

(Again, I might be slow in replying further. Just because I answered SHARK right now doesn't mean I'm ignoring all other points - it just takes time to get to it.)

That's all beside the point that the writer of the article, by showing himself to be too fragile to read something extremely mild like Conan, or by being unable to read it and take away that it held anything of value, I'm unsure which from the guy's writing, his opinions are safe to completely disregard.  His take on Conan as "no beauty, no grace, no romance—just blood, brutality, butchery, and overt racism" is either willfully ignorant or lying, depending on whether he ever read a single page of it.

Quote from: BadApple on May 26, 2024, 07:39:17 AMIs this a good thread to post a tutorial about how to block people on this site?

(Insert your favorite deity or demigod here) Wept... Yes!

Quote from: Valatar on May 26, 2024, 10:34:33 PMThat's all beside the point that the writer of the article, by showing himself to be too fragile to read something extremely mild like Conan, or by being unable to read it and take away that it held anything of value, I'm unsure which from the guy's writing, his opinions are safe to completely disregard.  His take on Conan as "no beauty, no grace, no romance—just blood, brutality, butchery, and overt racism" is either willfully ignorant or lying, depending on whether he ever read a single page of it.

Makes you wonder how bad the rest of the book is.

Quote from: Naburimannu on May 26, 2024, 03:03:22 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 26, 2024, 12:00:33 AM

Quote from: jhkim on May 24, 2024, 01:51:49 PM.....

I've got to ask why you keep posting here. You never argue in good faith and usually choose whatever the most woke position possible is in order to cause division. Is that your purpose? To frustrate the forum users of this Bastion of Free Speech so that they throw their hands up in disgust and leave? Is your goal to destroy worthwhile conversation here to the point that it no longer is an actual forum for discussion?

jhkim is usually arguing in better faith than half the opposition... But the loud voices seem to win, or shout him down, too often.

Well, we've just seen this before, a lot. It has been jhkim's modus operendi for years now.

I am more than happy to engage someone in a discussion where we have a difference of opinion based upon intellectual honesty. I in particular have enjoyed debating the merits of WEG d6 Star Wars vs FFGs Star Wars with tenbones, but he didn't cherry pick his sources or outright lie about his experiences.

Quote from: Naburimannu on May 26, 2024, 03:03:22 PMI think I've said before how I've lost players from my work game by having the least hint of anti-PC racism; I'm a little more hopeful this time, since the player who was told "Hey, tieflings are by-the-book subject to pretty strong prejudice and abuse, and <here's their exact status in this world that helps explain how that evolved, whether or not it's justified>" went ahead to play one anyway, (ab)using 5e's easy cantrips to at least gesture towards hiding his nature in causal interactions even knowing it'll slip out over long contact.

But these players are still a bit sensitive to standard-to-my-expectations xenophobia / fantasy racism. Dwarves overly proud of their backwater town? Humans scorning the dwarven merchants for being over-focused on profit and not willing to stay around for the feast day? (That last one was meant to be purely cultural, but they saw the racial lens fit too...) We'll see how they shake out, particularly if they start exploring more the goblin vs dwarf divide.

See, what you are introducing here is, IMHO, not a problem with your gamemastering or the material but a problem with the players that you have in your game. If they are so fragile that they are turned off of a game due to fantasy racism or culturalism in the game setting, then how will they react in Real Life? Would they fail an American Literature course because they refused to read Mark Twain's Huckleberry Finn since it has the n-word in it or Harper Lee's To Kill A Mockingbird since it has the n-word in it?

Just to mix things up with a hot take: Is fictional racism wrong outside the context of modern politics? Because one of the fundamental strengths of fiction is being able to treat things allegorically as opposed to literally. And even when taken literally kind sticking with kind is the norm in nature. Regardless groups have to be a color of some kind, allegory needs clear identifiers, and hateful groups aren't likely to tolerate diversity.

So what do?

Quote from: KindaMeh on May 24, 2024, 01:36:09 PMDude, I hate racial essentialism. As well as any discrimination on the basis of any born identity. REH's thoughts on racial essentialism are not my own nor do I condone them. So I guess we're in agreement on that.

I only put that in there because jhkim was saying I didn't think he or his works were influenced by that kind of thought, which is to say biological essentialist racism. I thought I made it pretty clear. Apparently not.

It all depended on whether we were focusing on the author or their work, which @jhkim made exceptionally if not deliberately difficult to determine. Of course REH's racism influenced his work. Who cares? Of course REH's story about a global race war was racist. Who cares? The only thing relevant was the possible racism in Conan, which @jhkin eventually provided a (solid) example of.

Quote from: Brad on May 25, 2024, 08:49:00 AMHis alleged racism, real or nonexistent, is entirely immaterial to any discussion about fucking nerdy elf games.

Agreed.

Quote from: Brad on May 25, 2024, 08:49:00 AMSo basically, fuck them and if you think it's tiresome that people are saying REH's racism doesn't matter, maybe start with the root cause and kill all the commies; the problems would magically disappear.

Magically indeed.

The idea that it's worth the cost, let alone even possible, to eliminate everyone who adopts an opposing ideology is precisely the delusional thinking behind this retarded culture war.

Quote from: jhkim on May 25, 2024, 11:54:45 AMCan a story be racist? No, but the characters in the story can be and sometimes must be in order to have an effective story.

If characters in a story are racist, does that mean the author is racist? No, because that same logic would indicate that any horror writer must be a murderous sociopath since they write about them.

In this case however the author has both included racist themes in their work as well as expressed racists views in their personal correspondence.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on May 27, 2024, 03:07:08 AMMagically indeed.

The idea that it's worth the cost, let alone even possible, to eliminate everyone who adopts an opposing ideology is precisely the delusional thinking behind this retarded culture war.

Communists aren't people, and they don't have "an opposing ideology", they are psychopathic meat robots whose only goal is totalitarianism and complete control over the masses. This is demonstrated throughout history, hence, yes, the cost is absolutely worth it. Legitimate political disagreements should be debated and discussed. Communists just through out ad hominems instantly, then dox your ass if you don't follow along. So, to reiterate, fuck them and they can all burn in Hell.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on May 27, 2024, 03:07:08 AMThe only thing relevant was the possible racism in Conan, which @jhkin eventually provided a (solid) example of.

Did he? I saw a bunch of quotes from Shadows in Zamboula. Can you explain which is a solid example of racism, and exactly what is so solidly racist about it please?

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on May 27, 2024, 03:07:08 AM

Quote from: jhkim on May 25, 2024, 11:54:45 AMCan a story be racist? No, but the characters in the story can be and sometimes must be in order to have an effective story.

If characters in a story are racist, does that mean the author is racist? No, because that same logic would indicate that any horror writer must be a murderous sociopath since they write about them.

In this case however the author has both included racist themes in their work as well as expressed racists views in their personal correspondence.

Sorry for being nitpicky about this, but where in personal correspondence? Is this just the "normal" racism that was accepted in the 1920s or does it show a personal and exceptional targeting and denigration of races?

Here's Shadows in Zamboula, now, can anyone point EXACTLY where is the racismism?