Quote from: Exploderwizard on May 22, 2024, 10:29:02 AMCalling attention to such things, in the deranged mind of a leftist, justifies their endless war on Western culture and civilization. The idea in painting historical literary giants as racists is to label YOU as a racist if you enjoy and appreciate their work and contribution to Western culture.

This is why I talked about my appreciation for Howard as an author and explicitly pointed to my old Conan RPG material here:

https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/brawnythews/

I never ran a full campaign of the Conan RPG, but I enjoyed that adventure a lot.

Quote from: Brad on May 22, 2024, 08:59:45 AMI think he needs to be on everyone's ignore list as all he does is derail any legitimate discussion. His obsession with calling dudes who've been dead for 100+ years racist is about the most pathetic attempt at virtue signaling possible.

Also, who gives a fuck if REH was racist? Does it even matter? Does it have any material impact on anyone currently alive?

I'm not the one who started the subtopic of REH. There were a bunch of posts about Howard, defending him against the critique in the linked Rascal article from the original post. I specifically responded to Krazz saying that there was no evidence of racism by Howard (in reply #18).

The part that matters is the attitude regarding racism by the people here and now in this thread. I think "The Last White Man" is racist - as does Venka - but there are others who are claiming it is not racist. The issue is why we have these opposing views in the present day.

Quote from: Omega on May 22, 2024, 05:09:59 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 21, 2024, 04:24:51 AMNow that doesn't sound so much like a writer who is racist, but like a writer who is using the main character's racism to demonstrate why a society that embraces racism creates weak citizens and is destined to fall.

You really think he wont try to twist it back around to suit his agenda?

Reading along...

Yep. He did.

Mea Culpa

I was bored at work. I should know better.

Quote from: HappyDaze on May 22, 2024, 11:52:42 AM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on May 22, 2024, 10:29:02 AMThose who can get you to believe absurdities can force you to commit atrocities.

There's today's dose of irony, folks!

Yes. You absolutely are.

Quote from: jhkim on May 22, 2024, 01:20:04 PMThis is why I talked about my appreciation for Howard as an author and explicitly pointed to my old Conan RPG material here:

Man I really love me some REH stories!

OMG!!!111!!! Looks at all teh WACIST stuff he wrote!!!!

Proceeds to point out things that arent racist.

Rinse repeat ad nausium.

This thread has been so thoroughly derailed by you two fuckwits. And its deliberate. You cant stand anyone pointing out your precious cult of idiocy is so abjectly wrong.

Quote from: SHARK on May 16, 2024, 11:01:03 AMGreetings!

I read the entire article.

You're braver than me, Shark.

I stopped the moment I saw "Tolkien was racist" excerpt quoted by Insane Nerd Ramblings. And, just for the record, I think the author of that text has never ever read any of Tolkien's works.

Quote from: jhkim on May 21, 2024, 11:51:02 AMHis girlfriend Novalyne Price wrote about a conversation with him where he told her, "I guess you know if a Negro is found on the streets after dark in Coleman, Santa Anna, and several other towns around here, they run him out of town.  Chances are they might tar and feather him." When Novalyne reacted negatively, Howard elaborated, "Let me tell you something, girl, that you don't seem to know.  Those people come from a different line.  They have different blood -"

Hearsay your honor, the prosecution knows full well they can't prove this "conversation" ever transpired.

Quote from: Omega on May 22, 2024, 03:07:50 PMThis thread has been so thoroughly derailed by you two fuckwits. And its deliberate. You cant stand anyone pointing out your precious cult of idiocy is so abjectly wrong.

Yep.  Once the topic starts making the left look bad, the jhkim-bot rides in to save the day by picking a minor, ancillary point and running away with it in order to deflect attention.

The reality is that fantasy literature and RPGs, having become popular, must be tortured into the service of the woke ideology, and that means tearing down the ideas and tropes that built that popularity.  The left is composed of abject fools: they are always trying to rebuild pyramids starting with the top block...

I will admit that given some of the things he wrote both privately and in public, especially as regards Black Canaan and The Last White Man, many of REH's books were racially charged. That's fair and prospectively somewhat important to acknowledge. But he also lived in an age where racism was a lot more common, and prior to the civil rights movement. So many of his thoughts on the subject of race assumed things we wouldn't today, especially with respect to innate ethnic biological traits and the like being substantively meaningful and blah. He also wrote pulp, where that kind of shorthand characterization was more common all told. In short, a man of his time,  though his views on race and marginalized ethnicities such as Jewish folks did seem to evolve as he aged and his portrayals arguably became more sympathetic and less essentialist over time. Had he not died early, who knows what he would have ultimately believed or become.


Part of the problem, though, I feel, is that one cannot judge those of the past as though they had the knowledge and civilizational benefits of the present, because they didn't. They ultimately built those things, but they never got to live with them. Unluckily or perhaps even at times luckily the morals of modern day liberalism (in the classical and not "progressive" sense: free speech, individual rights, democracy, equal treatment under the law) also was not as widespread or even much a thing back then. Hell, for a long time phrenology of all things was considered a science,  which kind of just goes to show that folks' from the past's understanding of reality and not just their moral takes on it were pretty much utterly divorced from how most folks see things now. They were working not just with different morals but with a completely different world and alleged set of facts.

We cannot neglect the history of where we came from, nor the great works of the past, as written in the times as some such literary works were. Yet all too often I feel we act as though those with flaws in one or more areas of their personal lives or worldviews should not be acknowledged for accomplishments elsewhere, even when they are historic. Likewise, a myopic obsession with judging all prior decision making and thought as though it were arrived at through the lens of present facts and culture I feel obscures the real wins that took place in the building of what we have within present civilization(s). Probably something to be said there about oppression being judged only within a somewhat antiquated American cultural context or only within the context of specific demographics blinding us to some of the problems of the present, too, though I digress a bit there.


Point being, that kind of myopic thought is arguably at the core of the critiques folks want to level at the history of D&D. Only worse, in that the present "facts" and "values" being used are oftentimes centered in a blinding woke obsession with identity politics as an inherent good. Rather than a threat giving rise to inequality in treatment on the basis of innate attributes, both institutionally and corporately, and even under the law. Which under critical theory is apparently the "only solution" to current racism. Past discirimination requiring present discrimination to correct, and that in turn requiring more discrimination, forever.

Quote from: Omega on May 22, 2024, 03:07:50 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 22, 2024, 01:20:04 PMThis is why I talked about my appreciation for Howard as an author and explicitly pointed to my old Conan RPG material here:

Man I really love me some REH stories!

OMG!!!111!!! Looks at all teh WACIST stuff he wrote!!!!

Proceeds to point out things that arent racist.

Rinse repeat ad nausium.

This thread has been so thoroughly derailed by you two fuckwits. And its deliberate. You cant stand anyone pointing out your precious cult of idiocy is so abjectly wrong.

I'm discussing the topic of the thread. Disagreeing with you isn't derailing.

As for pointing at things that aren't racist, I stand firm that Howard's "The Last White Man" clearly expresses racism. It describes the black race as destroyers who can't create without white people, and a future where destructive black hordes pour out of Africa to wipe out all other races.

To have any discussion of what is or isn't racist, there needs to be some agreement on what racism is.

Quote from: KindaMeh on May 22, 2024, 05:27:33 PMPart of the problem, though, I feel, is that one cannot judge those of the past as though they had the knowledge and civilizational benefits of the present, because they didn't. They ultimately built those things, but they never got to live with them. Unluckily or perhaps even at times luckily the morals of modern day liberalism (in the classical and not "progressive" sense: free speech, individual rights, democracy, equal treatment under the law) also was not as widespread or even much a thing back then. Hell, for a long time phrenology of all things was considered a science,  which kind of just goes to show that folks' from the past's understanding of reality and not just their moral takes on it were pretty much utterly divorced from how most folks see things now. They were working not just with different morals but with a completely different world and alleged set of facts.

We cannot neglect the history of where we came from, nor the great works of the past, as written in the times as some such literary works were. Yet all too often I feel we act as though those with flaws in one or more areas of their personal lives or worldviews should not be acknowledged for accomplishments elsewhere, even when they are historic. Likewise, a myopic obsession with judging all prior decision making and thought as though it were arrived at through the lens of present facts and culture I feel obscures the real wins that took place in the building of what we have within present civilization(s). Probably something to be said there about oppression being judged only within a somewhat antiquated American cultural context or only within the context of specific demographics blinding us to some of the problems of the present, too, though I digress a bit there.

Well said.  This needs to be stickied at the top of the internet.

Quote from: Greywolf76 on May 22, 2024, 03:26:29 PM

Quote from: SHARK on May 16, 2024, 11:01:03 AMGreetings!

I read the entire article.

You're braver than me, Shark.

I stopped the moment I saw "Tolkien was racist" excerpt quoted by Insane Nerd Ramblings. And, just for the record, I think the author of that text has never ever read any of Tolkien's works.

Greetings!

GREYWOLF76! Hey there, my friend! *Laughing* Yes, well, I do like to be thorough, and I like to know all about precisely what and who I am talking about. Yes, as you wish, my friend, you saved yourself the pain of reading the slop. Of wading through so much BS it is mind-boggling!

And yeah, that clown has never read Tolkien. On the other hand, theoretically it is possible--but these types of Marxist Demagogues, Marxist Shock Troops--they can read something you and I have read--and they then proceed to interpret such a book through their own distorted, Marxist, Racist, Feminist, Queer lens. And yes, they are insane. The Marxist ideology that serves as their philosophical foundation actually corrupts their mind, and erodes and pollutes their thinking, their mental faculties. It is laborious dealing with these kinds of people in any way, Greywolf76! Sadly, our corrupt society is actually creating MORE and MORE of these kinds of hate-filled monsters.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Holy shit this is tiresome.

Quote from: jhkim on May 20, 2024, 03:15:21 PMThere is tons of evidence of racism on the part of R.E. Howard. Here is the start of his story "The Last White Man",

Not a Conan story. Not the opinion of the author.

So not sure what you're trying to demonstrate here.

Quote from: jhkim on May 20, 2024, 05:13:28 PMFair enough. Here are some excerpts from "Shadows in Zamboula".

Conan story. Not the opinion of the author.

If your intent was to demonstrate racist themes in Conan, you should have started here. But you didn't.

Quote from: jhkim on May 21, 2024, 11:51:02 AMIn your own link, this is what Howard wrote in a letter to his friend Tevis Clyde Smith:

Quote from: R.E. HowardI shall write a story entitled "The Last Man" as a warning to the white races. If the West falls before the East, it won't be because I haven't warned the white races. Well, maybe if I progress, which I doubt much, in a few years I'll become such a nuisance that the Dalai Lama will take notice of me and my career will end suddenly.

Again, this isn't part of a story, this is Howard writing to his friend.

Have you read the story? Again, it isn't long, and I gave a link earlier to the collection it is in.

https://archive.org/details/howard-collector-05-1964-summer/page/22/mode/2up

In another letter, Howard wrote (regarding a rape trial in Honolulu):

Quote from: R.E. HowardI know what would have happened to them in Texas.  I don't know whether an Oriental smells any different than a nigger when he's roasting, but I'm willing to bet the aroma of scorching hide would have the same chastening effect on his surviving tribesman.

His girlfriend Novalyne Price wrote about a conversation with him where he told her, "I guess you know if a Negro is found on the streets after dark in Coleman, Santa Anna, and several other towns around here, they run him out of town.  Chances are they might tar and feather him." When Novalyne reacted negatively, Howard elaborated, "Let me tell you something, girl, that you don't seem to know.  Those people come from a different line.  They have different blood -"

Not a Conan story. Opinion of the author.

If your intent was to expose the author's racists proclivities, then you should have started here. But you didn't.

Not sure which is more irritating, this tedious goalpost moving where I'm still not sure what your point is, or how every response keeps denying/excusing the obvious racism.

Quote from: KindaMeh on May 22, 2024, 05:27:33 PMI will admit that given some of the things he wrote both privately and in public, especially as regards Black Canaan and The Last White Man, many of REH's books were racially charged. That's fair and prospectively somewhat important to acknowledge.

Quote from: KindaMeh on May 22, 2024, 05:27:33 PMWe cannot neglect the history of where we came from, nor the great works of the past, as written in the times as some such literary works were. Yet all too often I feel we act as though those with flaws in one or more areas of their personal lives or worldviews should not be acknowledged for accomplishments elsewhere, even when they are historic. Likewise, a myopic obsession with judging all prior decision making and thought as though it were arrived at through the lens of present facts and culture I feel obscures the real wins that took place in the building of what we have within present civilization(s).

I agree that there have been real wins and progress in terms of race. To demonstrate those wins, though, we have to be able to point to and call out the racism of 100 years ago -- and then say how things are different now.

This is why I hate sanitizing / bowdlerizing of old stories to remove the offensive parts. People should see the past as it was, not how they idealize it to be.

It's a basic reality check that "The Last White Man" expresses racism. Yes, there are people today who go too far in calling everything racist, to the point that I actively avoid using the term in discussion. But "The Last White Man" is clearly past the line.

---

KindaMeh - you use the more neutral term "racially charged". I think no one disagrees that it has clear racial themes. But, say, jeff37923 suggests that it is opposed to racism in society, comparing it to _To Kill a Mockingbird_. (Replies #35 and #41)

Do you think I'm being myopic and wrong in calling it racist? I think it's damn clear, and I'm just calling it what it is. If one wants to oppose critiques that D&D is racist -- I think defending "The Last White Man" as non-racist makes one less credible, and thus weakens one's position rather than strengthening it.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on May 23, 2024, 06:36:48 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 21, 2024, 11:51:02 AMHis girlfriend Novalyne Price wrote about a conversation with him where he told her, "I guess you know if a Negro is found on the streets after dark in Coleman, Santa Anna, and several other towns around here, they run him out of town.  Chances are they might tar and feather him." When Novalyne reacted negatively, Howard elaborated, "Let me tell you something, girl, that you don't seem to know.  Those people come from a different line.  They have different blood -"

Not a Conan story. Opinion of the author.

If your intent was to expose the author's racists proclivities, then you should have started here. But you didn't.

Not sure which is more irritating, this tedious goalpost moving where I'm still not sure what your point is, or how every response keeps denying/excusing the obvious racism.

You say that the stories are irrelevant because they're not Howard's real-life views -- but if I had only quoted from his personal letters, then I'm sure that posters would have shot back that it was irrelevant. Howard might have been racist in his private life, but that has nothing whatsoever to do with his legacy and stories, so I was just engaging in a personal vendetta to smear him.

A story can in itself express racist views. MYFAROG, for example, is a racist RPG. It isn't just that Varg Vikernes is a racist privately, but he expresses his views in the game - like the attribute modifiers for the Darkling and Weakling races. "Birth of a Nation" (1915) is a fictional movie - but the KKK would hold screenings of it at their recruitment drives in the 1920s, because it expresses a racist point of view that they wanted to instill. 

I'm claiming that "The Last White Man" is itself racist. The story has a racist message. That's not the same thing as there being a racist character in the fiction. For example, the story has descriptions of the black race and what they do when they invade Europe to kill the hated whites, until there is only a single white man left.

It's not subtle.

As for what my point is -- I'd like to understand why so many posters insist that there is no racism here, when it seems very obvious and clear to me. If we can't agree on what I consider this very obvious case, I think it's showing some core issue.

Quote from: jhkim on May 23, 2024, 07:46:10 PM

Quote from: KindaMeh on May 22, 2024, 05:27:33 PMI will admit that given some of the things he wrote both privately and in public, especially as regards Black Canaan and The Last White Man, many of REH's books were racially charged. That's fair and prospectively somewhat important to acknowledge.

Quote from: KindaMeh on May 22, 2024, 05:27:33 PMWe cannot neglect the history of where we came from, nor the great works of the past, as written in the times as some such literary works were. Yet all too often I feel we act as though those with flaws in one or more areas of their personal lives or worldviews should not be acknowledged for accomplishments elsewhere, even when they are historic. Likewise, a myopic obsession with judging all prior decision making and thought as though it were arrived at through the lens of present facts and culture I feel obscures the real wins that took place in the building of what we have within present civilization(s).

I agree that there have been real wins and progress in terms of race. To demonstrate those wins, though, we have to be able to point to and call out the racism of 100 years ago -- and then say how things are different now.

This is why I hate sanitizing / bowdlerizing of old stories to remove the offensive parts. People should see the past as it was, not how they idealize it to be.

It's a basic reality check that "The Last White Man" expresses racism. Yes, there are people today who go too far in calling everything racist, to the point that I actively avoid using the term in discussion. But "The Last White Man" is clearly past the line.

---

KindaMeh - you use the more neutral term "racially charged". I think no one disagrees that it has clear racial themes. But, say, jeff37923 suggests that it is opposed to racism in society, comparing it to _To Kill a Mockingbird_. (Replies #35 and #41)

Do you think I'm being myopic and wrong in calling it racist? I think it's damn clear, and I'm just calling it what it is. If one wants to oppose critiques that D&D is racist -- I think defending "The Last White Man" as non-racist makes one less credible, and thus weakens one's position rather than strengthening it.

You may have wanted to quote the segments I had right after and right before the limited  segments you quoted, wherein I noted he came from a time with greater racism, and that he had written both personally and professionally things with racial messaging supporting essentialism. I even brought up Black Canaan, which could have had an easy use for you in terms of tangible literary evidence of vibes and stance within the REH discussion. You can latch onto a single phrasing to try to make it seem like I didn't portray things as they were or am somehow in denial, but that's not really gonna work as a good use of time. Firstly, in that it only wastes time for anyone who read the full post properly.

As regards myopia, I gave I feel a very clear argument as to what I felt was myopic thought within the context of the analysis of historical achievements. As well as with respect to the analysis of modern society. At no point therein did I talk about you specifically or even quote your posts, so whether you felt attacked or not by my reasoning has very little to do with me.

It likewise certainly had nothing to do with whether you, like myself, viewed REH to be something of a racial essentialist from a more racist time.

If you wish to discuss my reasoning and arguments regarding myopic historical or modern analysis and the like, therefore, let's just get into that directly. Or if you disagree with my last little paragraph, the one about D&D criticism within the context of that, identity politics, and discrimination on the basis of innate traits, maybe we can talk directly about that in an expanded manner, within the relevant context of the topic of this thread. Heck, maybe it was all just a misunderstanding, and you don't actually want to spend time on that right now. Regardless, I stand by what I wrote, and would be happy to try and discuss whatever. (Though I may be in and out in terms of availability.)