Quote from: Venka on May 21, 2024, 11:14:55 AM

Quote from: jhkim on May 20, 2024, 03:15:21 PMStill, the evidence of his racism is impossible to ignore. It's a question of putting it in context and interpreting it.

I mean, I think I'll just enjoy it right alongside everything else he's written.

But by the modern and overly broad definition of racism, all these men were racist.  In some cases, even by the original definition of racism. And of course, by the future definition of racism, the preview of which everyone here has seen on twitter and such, everyone who is targeted politically is racist, including everyone on this board.

Venka - these are broad generalities. You say that some of these men are racist by the original definition of racist. Do you think that "The Last White Man" is evidence of racism (original definition) on the part of R.E. Howard?

In general, I avoid using the term racism because of ambiguity and disagreement over the meaning. But "The Last White Man" isn't a murky case, any more than the MYFAROG RPG. It is openly about race war and we even have a letter from Howard saying about how he is warning white races.

Quote from: DocJones on May 21, 2024, 07:24:32 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 20, 2024, 03:15:21 PMI'm not endorsing all the claims of the article from the original post. However, this last claim is ridiculous. There is tons of evidence of racism on the part of R.E. Howard. Here is the start of his story "The Last White Man",

That post-Apocalyptic story is about the decline of Western civilization due to its degeneracy and rise of African and Arab empires to replace it.  It is NOT racist to write such a story.
That story happens to be highly prescient.

It's possible to write a story about the decline of Western civilization that is not racist. However, this story fundamentally identifies Western civilization to the white race, and declares that the black race from Africa is inherently savage and destructive. A non-racist version of the story would allow that black and brown people could be a part of Western civilization, and that the war is over culture rather than race.

As for it being prescient - it was written a century ago around 1925, but it doesn't describe well the events from 1925 to today. The events it describes are:

Quote from: R.E. HowardThe Orientals allied themselves with the negroes to slaughter the hated whites. Only the Sikhs and Ghurkas in India and the Shans in Burma stood firm.

Spain, Portugal, Italy, the Balkans were overwhelmed with one rush. The black hordes, spread out, until the tips of that vast army reached from Gibraltar to Siam.

They swept over Europe like a wave. In America a savage struggle was going on, for her black inhabitants, who numbered nearly half of her entire population, had risen.

Then over the ocean came the invaders from Africa. In less than ten years, the fight had changed from a war between two great nations, to a hunting down and slaughtering of scattered remnants of the great nation which once had ruled the world. Not with ease was this accomplished. The hunted life brought back the primitive might of the race and those who survived became giants, such as the man who crouched among the boulders and cursed.

In the century since the story was written, there has been no military invasion of Europe by an Oriental/negro alliance. You might say that it is about to happen soon, but that's speculation that I disagree with. Europe has moved more towards unification than Africa has.

Quote from: jhkim on May 21, 2024, 08:18:47 PM

Quote from: DocJones on May 21, 2024, 07:24:32 PMThat post-Apocalyptic story is about the decline of Western civilization due to its degeneracy and rise of African and Arab empires to replace it.  It is NOT racist to write such a story.
That story happens to be highly prescient.

It's possible to write a story about the decline of Western civilization that is not racist. However, this story fundamentally identifies Western civilization to the white race, and declares that the black race from Africa is inherently savage and destructive. A non-racist version of the story would allow that black and brown people could be a part of Western civilization, and that the war is over culture rather than race.

Quote from: R.E. HowardThe black race was doomed. They were destroyers, not builders. When they slew the white men, progress ceased. The blacks reverted to savagery. They did not even know the art of making weapons.

I wonder if he had lived long enough to see Zimbabwe, South Africa, Detroit, Chicago, Malmo, London, Brighton would it have changed his mind.

Quote from: jhkim on May 21, 2024, 08:18:47 PMVenka - these are broad generalities. You say that some of these men are racist by the original definition of racist. Do you think that "The Last White Man" is evidence of racism (original definition) on the part of R.E. Howard?

Yes.  But, for instance, Tolkien is definitely not.

QuoteIn general, I avoid using the term racism because of ambiguity and disagreement over the meaning. But "The Last White Man" isn't a murky case, any more than the MYFAROG RPG.

While I agree, these differ in intentions and magnitude. I suspect that disagreement isn't salient, however- the story is clearly racist.

Quote from: jhkim on May 21, 2024, 08:18:47 PM

Quote from: Venka on May 21, 2024, 11:14:55 AM

Quote from: jhkim on May 20, 2024, 03:15:21 PMStill, the evidence of his racism is impossible to ignore. It's a question of putting it in context and interpreting it.

I mean, I think I'll just enjoy it right alongside everything else he's written.

But by the modern and overly broad definition of racism, all these men were racist.  In some cases, even by the original definition of racism. And of course, by the future definition of racism, the preview of which everyone here has seen on twitter and such, everyone who is targeted politically is racist, including everyone on this board.

Venka - these are broad generalities. You say that some of these men are racist by the original definition of racist. Do you think that "The Last White Man" is evidence of racism (original definition) on the part of R.E. Howard?

In general, I avoid using the term racism because of ambiguity and disagreement over the meaning. But "The Last White Man" isn't a murky case, any more than the MYFAROG RPG. It is openly about race war and we even have a letter from Howard saying about how he is warning white races.

Quote from: DocJones on May 21, 2024, 07:24:32 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 20, 2024, 03:15:21 PMI'm not endorsing all the claims of the article from the original post. However, this last claim is ridiculous. There is tons of evidence of racism on the part of R.E. Howard. Here is the start of his story "The Last White Man",

That post-Apocalyptic story is about the decline of Western civilization due to its degeneracy and rise of African and Arab empires to replace it.  It is NOT racist to write such a story.
That story happens to be highly prescient.

It's possible to write a story about the decline of Western civilization that is not racist. However, this story fundamentally identifies Western civilization to the white race, and declares that the black race from Africa is inherently savage and destructive. A non-racist version of the story would allow that black and brown people could be a part of Western civilization, and that the war is over culture rather than race.

As for it being prescient - it was written a century ago around 1925, but it doesn't describe well the events from 1925 to today. The events it describes are:

Quote from: R.E. HowardThe Orientals allied themselves with the negroes to slaughter the hated whites. Only the Sikhs and Ghurkas in India and the Shans in Burma stood firm.

Spain, Portugal, Italy, the Balkans were overwhelmed with one rush. The black hordes, spread out, until the tips of that vast army reached from Gibraltar to Siam.

They swept over Europe like a wave. In America a savage struggle was going on, for her black inhabitants, who numbered nearly half of her entire population, had risen.

Then over the ocean came the invaders from Africa. In less than ten years, the fight had changed from a war between two great nations, to a hunting down and slaughtering of scattered remnants of the great nation which once had ruled the world. Not with ease was this accomplished. The hunted life brought back the primitive might of the race and those who survived became giants, such as the man who crouched among the boulders and cursed.

In the century since the story was written, there has been no military invasion of Europe by an Oriental/negro alliance. You might say that it is about to happen soon, but that's speculation that I disagree with. Europe has moved more towards unification than Africa has.

That's because it's a work of fiction you dolt.

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 21, 2024, 08:46:15 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 21, 2024, 08:18:47 PM

Quote from: DocJones on May 21, 2024, 07:24:32 PMThat story happens to be highly prescient.

As for it being prescient - it was written a century ago around 1925, but it doesn't describe well the events from 1925 to today.
...
In the century since the story was written, there has been no military invasion of Europe by an Oriental/negro alliance. You might say that it is about to happen soon, but that's speculation that I disagree with. Europe has moved more towards unification than Africa has.

That's because it's a work of fiction you dolt.

A work of fiction could potentially accurately predict the future from when it was written. If so, that work would be called "prescient".

DocJones claimed that "The Last White Man" was prescient. I disagree, since its conflicts don't resemble the global wars from 1925 to the present.

As an example of being prescient, Jules Vernes' story "Paris in the Twentieth Century" in 1863 predicted a lot of technology that came to pass in the real 1960 - skyscrapers, elevators, fax machines ("picture-telegraphs"), cars ("gas-cabs"), electric lights, and more. The story is still fiction, and got many things wrong, but it did get many things right.

Quote from: Venka on May 21, 2024, 08:35:11 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 21, 2024, 08:18:47 PMVenka - these are broad generalities. You say that some of these men are racist by the original definition of racist. Do you think that "The Last White Man" is evidence of racism (original definition) on the part of R.E. Howard?

Yes.  But, for instance, Tolkien is definitely not.

Quote from: jhkim on May 21, 2024, 08:18:47 PMIn general, I avoid using the term racism because of ambiguity and disagreement over the meaning. But "The Last White Man" isn't a murky case, any more than the MYFAROG RPG.

While I agree, these differ in intentions and magnitude. I suspect that disagreement isn't salient, however- the story is clearly racist.

Thanks, Venka. I did not expect that I would be arguing over whether "The Last White Man" is racist. It seems clear to me from reading it.

There's room for reasonable disagreement over a lot of things regarding race. I genuinely thought this one wasn't controversial to call.

Quote from: jhkim on May 21, 2024, 09:15:46 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 21, 2024, 08:46:15 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 21, 2024, 08:18:47 PM

Quote from: DocJones on May 21, 2024, 07:24:32 PMThat story happens to be highly prescient.

As for it being prescient - it was written a century ago around 1925, but it doesn't describe well the events from 1925 to today.
...
In the century since the story was written, there has been no military invasion of Europe by an Oriental/negro alliance. You might say that it is about to happen soon, but that's speculation that I disagree with. Europe has moved more towards unification than Africa has.

That's because it's a work of fiction you dolt.

A work of fiction could potentially accurately predict the future from when it was written. If so, that work would be called "prescient".

DocJones claimed that "The Last White Man" was prescient. I disagree, since its conflicts don't resemble the global wars from 1925 to the present.

As an example of being prescient, Jules Vernes' story "Paris in the Twentieth Century" in 1863 predicted a lot of technology that came to pass in the real 1960 - skyscrapers, elevators, fax machines ("picture-telegraphs"), cars ("gas-cabs"), electric lights, and more. The story is still fiction, and got many things wrong, but it did get many things right.

....

Quote from: jhkimDamnit! I know that there is a forest around here somewhere but I can't get a good look at it with all these damn trees in my way!

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 21, 2024, 04:24:51 AMNow that doesn't sound so much like a writer who is racist, but like a writer who is using the main character's racism to demonstrate why a society that embraces racism creates weak citizens and is destined to fall.

You really think he wont try to twist it back around to suit his agenda?

Reading along...

Yep. He did.

Quote from: Brad on May 21, 2024, 11:43:29 AMDid jhkim just derail this thread and call REH racist? Does he have an actual fucking life?

You must be new here kid. Stick around. You'll see him jump through some of the most ass backwards mental jymnastics that would make a contortionist weep.

Quote from: jhkim on May 21, 2024, 02:46:42 AMThis is pretty clear in its statements about the black race, which are pejorative. Do you think that this section is racist against black people?

So by this fucked up logic anyone who ever writes about pejorative characters MUST themselves be racist?

Really?

This is what you are arguing now?

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 21, 2024, 12:06:39 PMThe story reads like a Cautionary Tale. A shorter and more ham fisted To Kill A Mockingbird or Huckleberry Finn.

And various waves of moral busybodies have bitched about Huckleberry Fin and claimed its wacist. Saw bits in the 70s wave, saw lots more in the 90s wave of this mental disease.

Quote from: Omega on May 22, 2024, 05:14:17 AMYou must be new here kid. Stick around. You'll see him jump through some of the most ass backwards mental jymnastics that would make a contortionist weep.

I think he needs to be on everyone's ignore list as all he does is derail any legitimate discussion. His obsession with calling dudes who've been dead for 100+ years racist is about the most pathetic attempt at virtue signaling possible.

Also, who gives a fuck if REH was racist? Does it even matter? Does it have any material impact on anyone currently alive?

Quote from: Brad on May 22, 2024, 08:59:45 AM

Quote from: Omega on May 22, 2024, 05:14:17 AMYou must be new here kid. Stick around. You'll see him jump through some of the most ass backwards mental jymnastics that would make a contortionist weep.

I think he needs to be on everyone's ignore list as all he does is derail any legitimate discussion. His obsession with calling dudes who've been dead for 100+ years racist is about the most pathetic attempt at virtue signaling possible.

Also, who gives a fuck if REH was racist? Does it even matter? Does it have any material impact on anyone currently alive?

Calling attention to such things, in the deranged mind of a leftist, justifies their endless war on Western culture and civilization. The idea in painting historical literary giants as racists is to label YOU as a racist if you enjoy and appreciate their work and contribution to Western culture. The exact same playbook is being used by WOTC to tear down Gygax and Arneson. You can see the same playbook being used by these drones over and over because none of them have an original thought. Clear thinking people don't abandon their love for great literature due to a pathetic attempt at label shaming.

Those who can get you to believe absurdities can force you to commit atrocities.

Quote from: jhkim on May 21, 2024, 09:29:16 PMThanks, Venka. I did not expect that I would be arguing over whether "The Last White Man" is racist. It seems clear to me from reading it.

There's room for reasonable disagreement over a lot of things regarding race. I genuinely thought this one wasn't controversial to call.

Can you, for once, not be a disingenuous fuck?

Quote from: Exploderwizard on May 22, 2024, 10:29:02 AMThose who can get you to believe absurdities can force you to commit atrocities.

There's today's dose of irony, folks!