Quote from: yosemitemike on June 08, 2024, 03:31:15 AMStill waiting for those examples of overt racism in works that were published in Howard's lifetime and that survive in complete form especially his Conan stories.  Are we going to get some of that any time soon?  At all?  Failure to produce them will be an admission that you can't and that the premise that his works are full of overt racism is false.

I gave the example of "Shadows in Zamboula" back in Reply #29, with selective quotes, but I haven't gone back to it, it's true. GeekyBugle had comments in Reply #112 that I still should get back to.

In general, the theme of this story is that the city is cursed. The black men of the city are devoted cannibals who prey on any strangers in the city to eat them, while the citizens turn a blind eye to the practice in their decadent corruption.

This is expressed in the first quote I gave:

Quote from: R.E. Howard'Aram Baksh is a demon! Nay, in this accursed city which Stygians built and which Hyrkanians rule—where white, brown and black folk mingle together to produce hybrids of all unholy hues and breeds—who can tell who is a man, and who a demon in disguise? Aram Baksh is a demon in the form of a man! At night he assumes his true guise and carries his guests off into the desert where his fellow demons from the waste meet in conclave.'

'Why does he always carry off strangers?' asked Conan skeptically.

'The people of the city would not suffer him to slay their people, but they care naught for the strangers who fall into his hands. Conan, you are of the West, and know not the secrets of this ancient land. But, since the beginning of happenings, the demons of the desert have worshipped Yog, the Lord of the Empty Abodes, with fire—fire that devours human victims.

These are the words of a character, so one could say that this character is racist, but the story is not. However, in this case, the character is foreshadowing and expressing the truth that is later borne out. The story bears out his warning exactly.

Throughout the story, the race of characters are all clearly emphasized. I'll point to my last quote, for example:

Quote from: R.E. HowardDrawing his foot from the stirrup he stole to the angle and peered around it. Three men were moving down the road toward the palm groves, and from their slouching gait he knew they were negroes. They halted at his low call, bunching themselves as he strode toward them, his sword in his hand. Their eyes gleamed whitely in the starlight. Their brutish lust shone in their ebony faces, but they knew their three cudgels could not prevail against his sword, just as he knew it.

GeekyBugle suggested that the racism here was in the use of "negro", but my intended point has nothing to do with that. The story says that black people are instantly recognizable by their "slouching gait", even if the color of their skin isn't visible. Black people don't all walk slouching, though, that's a stereotype of racist stories.

More generally, GeekyBugle suggested that the negative traits associated with the blacks in the story are specific only to the blacks of Darfar, but nothing in the story suggests a contrast between the people of Darfar and blacks in general. The specific cannibal slaves of this city are from Darfar, but much of the comments don't distinguish Darfarians. For example,

Quote from: R.E. Howard'Yes, let us hasten!' begged the girl, almost hysterical again. 'My lover is wandering somewhere in the streets alone. The negroes may take him.'

'A devil of a custom this is!' growled Conan, as he led the way toward the city, paralleling the road but keeping behind the huts and straggling trees. 'Why don't the citizens clean out these black dogs?'

I'd add how he describes the brown-skinned strangler Baal-pteor. Their contest is described explicitly as a contest of their races, but the brown-skinned Kosalan is called "inhuman".

Quote from: R.E. Howard'I think you never saw a man from the West before. Did you deem yourself strong, because you were able to twist the heads off civilized folk, poor weaklings with muscles like rotten string? Hell! Break the neck of a wild Cimmerian bull before you call yourself strong. I did that, before I was a full-grown man—like this!'

Quote from: R.E. HowardHis black hair was damp, sweat ran down his face, and his chest heaved. For all his vocal scorn of Baal-pteor's strength, he had almost met his match in the inhuman Kosalan.

The emphasis on race as the defining trait - and Kosalan as inhuman and inferior - stands out.

Quote from: jhkim on June 08, 2024, 10:19:01 AMThis is expressed in the first quote I gave:

Quote from: R.E. Howard'Aram Baksh is a demon! Nay, in this accursed city which Stygians built and which Hyrkanians rule—where white, brown and black folk mingle together to produce hybrids of all unholy hues and breeds—who can tell who is a man, and who a demon in disguise? Aram Baksh is a demon in the form of a man! At night he assumes his true guise and carries his guests off into the desert where his fellow demons from the waste meet in conclave.'

'Why does he always carry off strangers?' asked Conan skeptically.

'The people of the city would not suffer him to slay their people, but they care naught for the strangers who fall into his hands. Conan, you are of the West, and know not the secrets of this ancient land. But, since the beginning of happenings, the demons of the desert have worshipped Yog, the Lord of the Empty Abodes, with fire—fire that devours human victims.

These are the words of a character, so one could say that this character is racist, but the story is not. However, in this case, the character is foreshadowing and expressing the truth that is later borne out. The story bears out his warning exactly.

Those are the words of a character trying to pass herself off as something she's not, I wouldn't even judge her as racist. And the blacks aren't the only ones to come off badly in this story - let's not forget that the city as a whole lets strangers be killed and eaten.

Quote from: jhkim on June 08, 2024, 10:19:01 AMThroughout the story, the race of characters are all clearly emphasized. I'll point to my last quote, for example:

Quote from: R.E. HowardDrawing his foot from the stirrup he stole to the angle and peered around it. Three men were moving down the road toward the palm groves, and from their slouching gait he knew they were negroes. They halted at his low call, bunching themselves as he strode toward them, his sword in his hand. Their eyes gleamed whitely in the starlight. Their brutish lust shone in their ebony faces, but they knew their three cudgels could not prevail against his sword, just as he knew it.

GeekyBugle suggested that the racism here was in the use of "negro", but my intended point has nothing to do with that. The story says that black people are instantly recognizable by their "slouching gait", even if the color of their skin isn't visible. Black people don't all walk slouching, though, that's a stereotype of racist stories.

So the overt racism is suggesting that black people walk a little differently to other races? That's the best you can do to back up a claim that Howard's work is filled with overt racism?

Quote from: jhkim on June 08, 2024, 10:19:01 AMMore generally, GeekyBugle suggested that the negative traits associated with the blacks in the story are specific only to the blacks of Darfar, but nothing in the story suggests a contrast between the people of Darfar and blacks in general...

Really? Then what do these quotes from the very same story tell us?

Quote from: R.E. HowardConan ... stared down at teeth filed to points.

He understood now the mystery of the strangers who had disappeared from the house of Aram Baksh; the riddle of the black drum thrumming out there beyond the palm groves, and of that pit of charred bones—that pit where strange meat might be roasted under the stars, while black beasts squatted about to glut a hideous hunger. The man on the floor was a cannibal slave from Darfar..

Quote from: R.E. HowardA giant black man stood framed against the soft glow of a copper lamp. A quick glance showed Conan the man was not from Darfar. His teeth were unfiled and his kinky hair was cropped close to his skull. He was from the Wadai.

The pointed teeth mark the Darfaris as cannibals. The Wadai doesn't have pointed teeth. So it's just one group of blacks in the story who are cannibals.

Quote from: jhkim on June 08, 2024, 10:19:01 AMI'd add how he describes the brown-skinned strangler Baal-pteor. Their contest is described explicitly as a contest of their races, but the brown-skinned Kosalan is called "inhuman".

Quote from: R.E. Howard'I think you never saw a man from the West before. Did you deem yourself strong, because you were able to twist the heads off civilized folk, poor weaklings with muscles like rotten string? Hell! Break the neck of a wild Cimmerian bull before you call yourself strong. I did that, before I was a full-grown man—like this!'

Quote from: R.E. HowardHis black hair was damp, sweat ran down his face, and his chest heaved. For all his vocal scorn of Baal-pteor's strength, he had almost met his match in the inhuman Kosalan.

The emphasis on race as the defining trait - and Kosalan as inhuman and inferior - stands out.

Firstly, Baal-pteor isn't described as inferior. Sure, Conan beats him, but Conan beats everyone. "Almost met his match" makes it clear that he was almost as amazing as the Cimmerian. As to "inhuman", Howard doesn't always literally mean "not human" when he uses it. Earlier in the story, he makes note of Baal-pteor's "inhuman" strength. It just means far beyond what normal human's have. Here are some examples of white, human, non-magical characters with the word "inhuman" attached to them:

Quote from: R.E. Howard - A Witch Shall be BornFrom the lips of Constantius came an inhuman cry of despair and horror.

Quote from: R.E. Howard - Black ClossusWith an inhuman cry Conan caught up his fallen sword...

Quote from: R.E. Howard - The Frost Giant's DaughterWith an inhuman roar [Conan] closed in on her...

Quote from: Krazz on June 08, 2024, 03:41:35 PM

Quote from: jhkim on June 08, 2024, 10:19:01 AMThis is expressed in the first quote I gave:

Quote from: R.E. Howard'Aram Baksh is a demon! Nay, in this accursed city which Stygians built and which Hyrkanians rule—where white, brown and black folk mingle together to produce hybrids of all unholy hues and breeds—who can tell who is a man, and who a demon in disguise? Aram Baksh is a demon in the form of a man! At night he assumes his true guise and carries his guests off into the desert where his fellow demons from the waste meet in conclave.'

'Why does he always carry off strangers?' asked Conan skeptically.

'The people of the city would not suffer him to slay their people, but they care naught for the strangers who fall into his hands. Conan, you are of the West, and know not the secrets of this ancient land. But, since the beginning of happenings, the demons of the desert have worshipped Yog, the Lord of the Empty Abodes, with fire—fire that devours human victims.

These are the words of a character, so one could say that this character is racist, but the story is not. However, in this case, the character is foreshadowing and expressing the truth that is later borne out. The story bears out his warning exactly.

Those are the words of a character trying to pass herself off as something she's not, I wouldn't even judge her as racist. And the blacks aren't the only ones to come off badly in this story - let's not forget that the city as a whole lets strangers be killed and eaten.

Quote from: jhkim on June 08, 2024, 10:19:01 AMThroughout the story, the race of characters are all clearly emphasized. I'll point to my last quote, for example:

Quote from: R.E. HowardDrawing his foot from the stirrup he stole to the angle and peered around it. Three men were moving down the road toward the palm groves, and from their slouching gait he knew they were negroes. They halted at his low call, bunching themselves as he strode toward them, his sword in his hand. Their eyes gleamed whitely in the starlight. Their brutish lust shone in their ebony faces, but they knew their three cudgels could not prevail against his sword, just as he knew it.

GeekyBugle suggested that the racism here was in the use of "negro", but my intended point has nothing to do with that. The story says that black people are instantly recognizable by their "slouching gait", even if the color of their skin isn't visible. Black people don't all walk slouching, though, that's a stereotype of racist stories.

So the overt racism is suggesting that black people walk a little differently to other races? That's the best you can do to back up a claim that Howard's work is filled with overt racism?

Quote from: jhkim on June 08, 2024, 10:19:01 AMMore generally, GeekyBugle suggested that the negative traits associated with the blacks in the story are specific only to the blacks of Darfar, but nothing in the story suggests a contrast between the people of Darfar and blacks in general...

Really? Then what do these quotes from the very same story tell us?

Quote from: R.E. HowardConan ... stared down at teeth filed to points.

He understood now the mystery of the strangers who had disappeared from the house of Aram Baksh; the riddle of the black drum thrumming out there beyond the palm groves, and of that pit of charred bones—that pit where strange meat might be roasted under the stars, while black beasts squatted about to glut a hideous hunger. The man on the floor was a cannibal slave from Darfar..

Quote from: R.E. HowardA giant black man stood framed against the soft glow of a copper lamp. A quick glance showed Conan the man was not from Darfar. His teeth were unfiled and his kinky hair was cropped close to his skull. He was from the Wadai.

The pointed teeth mark the Darfaris as cannibals. The Wadai doesn't have pointed teeth. So it's just one group of blacks in the story who are cannibals.

Quote from: jhkim on June 08, 2024, 10:19:01 AMI'd add how he describes the brown-skinned strangler Baal-pteor. Their contest is described explicitly as a contest of their races, but the brown-skinned Kosalan is called "inhuman".

Quote from: R.E. Howard'I think you never saw a man from the West before. Did you deem yourself strong, because you were able to twist the heads off civilized folk, poor weaklings with muscles like rotten string? Hell! Break the neck of a wild Cimmerian bull before you call yourself strong. I did that, before I was a full-grown man—like this!'

Quote from: R.E. HowardHis black hair was damp, sweat ran down his face, and his chest heaved. For all his vocal scorn of Baal-pteor's strength, he had almost met his match in the inhuman Kosalan.

The emphasis on race as the defining trait - and Kosalan as inhuman and inferior - stands out.

Firstly, Baal-pteor isn't described as inferior. Sure, Conan beats him, but Conan beats everyone. "Almost met his match" makes it clear that he was almost as amazing as the Cimmerian. As to "inhuman", Howard doesn't always literally mean "not human" when he uses it. Earlier in the story, he makes note of Baal-pteor's "inhuman" strength. It just means far beyond what normal human's have. Here are some examples of white, human, non-magical characters with the word "inhuman" attached to them:

Quote from: R.E. Howard - A Witch Shall be BornFrom the lips of Constantius came an inhuman cry of despair and horror.

Quote from: R.E. Howard - Black ClossusWith an inhuman cry Conan caught up his fallen sword...

Quote from: R.E. Howard - The Frost Giant's DaughterWith an inhuman roar [Conan] closed in on her...

You're wasting your time, he has come to an ideologically driven conclusion, now it's a matter of his faith to prove it right.

Facts, reason, logic be damned REH has to be a raicismist and he'll twist, cherry pick and otherwise misinterpret the writings of REH (and your own words) to prevent himself from facing the truth.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 08, 2024, 04:26:30 PM

Quote from: Krazz on June 08, 2024, 03:41:35 PM

Quote from: jhkim on June 08, 2024, 10:19:01 AMThis is expressed in the first quote I gave:

Quote from: R.E. Howard'Aram Baksh is a demon! Nay, in this accursed city which Stygians built and which Hyrkanians rule—where white, brown and black folk mingle together to produce hybrids of all unholy hues and breeds—who can tell who is a man, and who a demon in disguise? Aram Baksh is a demon in the form of a man! At night he assumes his true guise and carries his guests off into the desert where his fellow demons from the waste meet in conclave.'

'Why does he always carry off strangers?' asked Conan skeptically.

'The people of the city would not suffer him to slay their people, but they care naught for the strangers who fall into his hands. Conan, you are of the West, and know not the secrets of this ancient land. But, since the beginning of happenings, the demons of the desert have worshipped Yog, the Lord of the Empty Abodes, with fire—fire that devours human victims.

These are the words of a character, so one could say that this character is racist, but the story is not. However, in this case, the character is foreshadowing and expressing the truth that is later borne out. The story bears out his warning exactly.

Those are the words of a character trying to pass herself off as something she's not, I wouldn't even judge her as racist. And the blacks aren't the only ones to come off badly in this story - let's not forget that the city as a whole lets strangers be killed and eaten.

Quote from: jhkim on June 08, 2024, 10:19:01 AMThroughout the story, the race of characters are all clearly emphasized. I'll point to my last quote, for example:

Quote from: R.E. HowardDrawing his foot from the stirrup he stole to the angle and peered around it. Three men were moving down the road toward the palm groves, and from their slouching gait he knew they were negroes. They halted at his low call, bunching themselves as he strode toward them, his sword in his hand. Their eyes gleamed whitely in the starlight. Their brutish lust shone in their ebony faces, but they knew their three cudgels could not prevail against his sword, just as he knew it.

GeekyBugle suggested that the racism here was in the use of "negro", but my intended point has nothing to do with that. The story says that black people are instantly recognizable by their "slouching gait", even if the color of their skin isn't visible. Black people don't all walk slouching, though, that's a stereotype of racist stories.

So the overt racism is suggesting that black people walk a little differently to other races? That's the best you can do to back up a claim that Howard's work is filled with overt racism?

Quote from: jhkim on June 08, 2024, 10:19:01 AMMore generally, GeekyBugle suggested that the negative traits associated with the blacks in the story are specific only to the blacks of Darfar, but nothing in the story suggests a contrast between the people of Darfar and blacks in general...

Really? Then what do these quotes from the very same story tell us?

Quote from: R.E. HowardConan ... stared down at teeth filed to points.

He understood now the mystery of the strangers who had disappeared from the house of Aram Baksh; the riddle of the black drum thrumming out there beyond the palm groves, and of that pit of charred bones—that pit where strange meat might be roasted under the stars, while black beasts squatted about to glut a hideous hunger. The man on the floor was a cannibal slave from Darfar..

Quote from: R.E. HowardA giant black man stood framed against the soft glow of a copper lamp. A quick glance showed Conan the man was not from Darfar. His teeth were unfiled and his kinky hair was cropped close to his skull. He was from the Wadai.

The pointed teeth mark the Darfaris as cannibals. The Wadai doesn't have pointed teeth. So it's just one group of blacks in the story who are cannibals.

Quote from: jhkim on June 08, 2024, 10:19:01 AMI'd add how he describes the brown-skinned strangler Baal-pteor. Their contest is described explicitly as a contest of their races, but the brown-skinned Kosalan is called "inhuman".

Quote from: R.E. Howard'I think you never saw a man from the West before. Did you deem yourself strong, because you were able to twist the heads off civilized folk, poor weaklings with muscles like rotten string? Hell! Break the neck of a wild Cimmerian bull before you call yourself strong. I did that, before I was a full-grown man—like this!'

Quote from: R.E. HowardHis black hair was damp, sweat ran down his face, and his chest heaved. For all his vocal scorn of Baal-pteor's strength, he had almost met his match in the inhuman Kosalan.

The emphasis on race as the defining trait - and Kosalan as inhuman and inferior - stands out.

Firstly, Baal-pteor isn't described as inferior. Sure, Conan beats him, but Conan beats everyone. "Almost met his match" makes it clear that he was almost as amazing as the Cimmerian. As to "inhuman", Howard doesn't always literally mean "not human" when he uses it. Earlier in the story, he makes note of Baal-pteor's "inhuman" strength. It just means far beyond what normal human's have. Here are some examples of white, human, non-magical characters with the word "inhuman" attached to them:

Quote from: R.E. Howard - A Witch Shall be BornFrom the lips of Constantius came an inhuman cry of despair and horror.

Quote from: R.E. Howard - Black ClossusWith an inhuman cry Conan caught up his fallen sword...

Quote from: R.E. Howard - The Frost Giant's DaughterWith an inhuman roar [Conan] closed in on her...

You're wasting your time, he has come to an ideologically driven conclusion, now it's a matter of his faith to prove it right.

Facts, reason, logic be damned REH has to be a raicismist and he'll twist, cherry pick and otherwise misinterpret the writings of REH (and your own words) to prevent himself from facing the truth.

Greetings!

Yeah, GeekyBugle! It is a matter of ideology for him. REH simply *must be* racimist, otherwise the main AI doesn't accept it, and goes crazy. All of his quotes simply reflect a fantastic, well-written fantasy world and fantasy characters, societies and cultures. There simply isn't any overt racism concerning REH in any of his Conan stories. However, I see parallels and reflections of the dynamic so often found with Leftists--they have a huge dysfunctional inability to parse reality from fantasy. Leftists purposely *look* for anything, no matter how remote, in popular, cherished, or historical stories to cry about and be offended by, and otherwise to villainize, smear, and destroy. Leftists do this with everything. History, fiction books, TV, Movies, and on and on.

I've read some third-rate women academics, from over there in Britain, write critiques of Tolkien, proclaiming Tolkien is racist and misogynist. Their arguments about Tolkien are rubbish. Just like the Leftists that have cried about Howard's Conan forever. Just like them, Jhkim tries to paint with the same brush, and uses similar weak arguments and interpretations.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

And here is another hit piece on older D&D. This time Keep on the Borderlands with gems of wisdom like this.

QuoteOne of the modules major failings, and something to pay attention to in our own design, is to do with diversity of his NPCs. Out of every single listed NPC in the module, there are no women that are not wives. Zero. Well, okay, there's a Medusa who betrays you, but that really drives home the point further. Every NPC is assumed to be a man. This is bad design.

https://theweepingstag.wordpress.com/2024/05/29/battle-scarred-yet-still-standing-keep-on-the-borderlands-today/

Anyone want to explain to this fucking clown that being an unmarried woman has generally implied you were a whore?

Quote from: Omega on June 08, 2024, 07:23:14 PMAnd here is another hit piece on older D&D. This time Keep on the Borderlands with gems of wisdom like this.

QuoteOne of the modules major failings, and something to pay attention to in our own design, is to do with diversity of his NPCs. Out of every single listed NPC in the module, there are no women that are not wives. Zero. Well, okay, there's a Medusa who betrays you, but that really drives home the point further. Every NPC is assumed to be a man. This is bad design.

https://theweepingstag.wordpress.com/2024/05/29/battle-scarred-yet-still-standing-keep-on-the-borderlands-today/

There is a serving wench at the tavern. Several of the NPCs have daughters. 
It's on the borderlands which is not a place for women not under the protection of men. ;-)

Quote from: Omega on June 08, 2024, 07:23:14 PMAnd here is another hit piece on older D&D. This time Keep on the Borderlands with gems of wisdom like this.

QuoteOne of the modules major failings, and something to pay attention to in our own design, is to do with diversity of his NPCs. Out of every single listed NPC in the module, there are no women that are not wives. Zero. Well, okay, there's a Medusa who betrays you, but that really drives home the point further. Every NPC is assumed to be a man. This is bad design.

https://theweepingstag.wordpress.com/2024/05/29/battle-scarred-yet-still-standing-keep-on-the-borderlands-today/

QuoteBy the end of this article, we'll address the most important question one can ask about a module: Does The Keep on the Borderlands succeed at helping the GM convey a plot at the table?

Bad question immediatley disqualifies article as garbage. I'm not even going to address the identity politics nonsense.

Quote from: Krazz on June 08, 2024, 03:41:35 PMsnip

Thanks.  That saved me the trouble of reading those stories to see how they were being misrepresented to make them seem racist.

Quote from: yosemitemike on June 08, 2024, 10:03:14 PM

Quote from: Krazz on June 08, 2024, 03:41:35 PMsnip

Thanks.  That saved me the trouble of reading those stories to see how they were being misrepresented to make them seem racist.

Dude, you make it sound like it's bad thing to read - but they're R.E. Howard stories, one of the classic authors of fantasy. And "The Last White Man" is very short - shorter than what you've read of this thread. Shadows in Zamboula is a little longer, but if you like Conan stories, it's not an imposition.

Here's the links again:

https://archive.org/details/howard-collector-05-1964-summer/page/22/mode/2up

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/42196/42196-h/42196-h.htm