Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 30, 2024, 02:45:22 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 30, 2024, 02:18:31 PM

Quote from: R.E. HowardThe black race was doomed. They were destroyers, not builders. When they slew the white men, progress ceased. The blacks reverted to savagery. They did not even know the art of making weapons. They had destroyed and could not rebuild. And they were going back to bestial savagery, and to a slaughtering of one another which even their animal-like rate of birth could not control.

It explicitly says "when they slew white men, progress ceased". That differentiates the races by their capacity for progress. Why wouldn't the black people make weapons and weapon factories for themselves, if they were capable?

Because "They did not even know the art of making weapons." Meaning MODERN weapons of course.

So a century after the 1920s, black people have unified, invaded Europe and then America - and they never learn how to make guns. ?!? Yes, I agree the story says that they never learned the art -- and it also says that they reverted to savagery, could not make progress, and couldn't build.

I'd submit that this is a negative portrayal of the black race as incompetent - and implausibly so to a monumental degree. By 1920, Africans had already warred with Europeans using guns for centuries. The first shots of the French conquest of Algeria, say, were the Dey directing cannon fire at blockading French ships. Yes, European guns were superior to African guns, but that doesn't mean that Africans were limited to spears.

In short, this is racist by portraying black people as inferior.


(Algerian camel gun circa 1830)

---

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 30, 2024, 02:45:22 PMBut more importantly, since you OBVIOUSLY read my posts, care to tell us WHY is TLWM in any way shape or form RELEVANT in a discussion about Conan stories?

The general thread isn't about Conan stories. It is about the Rascal article by Daniel Justice, who made a broad comment on R.E. Howard's writing in general, "especially" Conan but not exclusively.

If you don't care about "The Last White Man", don't respond. If people let it drop, then we can move on to discussion of Conan stories. I think the discussion of "The Last White Man" is interesting because it clearly highlights some of our differences in how we evaluate racism. Also, it's interesting because the character is clearly very Conan-like and it describes similar themes about the rise and fall of civilizations compared to his later work.

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 30, 2024, 07:51:37 PMYou've been using The Last White Man as a source for your argument. Yet The Last White Man is an unfinished manuscript by REH and that unfinished manuscript was never published until after he died, so how can you claim that it is representative of his works? Since it's only relation to the Conan stories is that they are by the same author, how can you claim that it is representative of the Conan stories?

I don't claim that "The Last White Man" is representative of Howard in general. It's his most racist story that I know of. I cited it because Krazz claimed that there was no evidence of racism on Howard's part, and I felt that it was clear evidence.

However, Krazz and others have strongly disagreed about that and claim there is no racism there, which I found surprising. A few of other posters (Venka, KindaMeh, and anon) have agreed that it is obviously racist.

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 30, 2024, 07:51:37 PMAnd where is your source for this quote from Howard to Tevis?

My source for that quote is the link that you yourself cited in Reply #35. I'll give it again below.

https://reh.world/stories/the-last-white-man/

Quote from: jhkim on May 30, 2024, 08:17:23 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 30, 2024, 02:45:22 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 30, 2024, 02:18:31 PM

Quote from: R.E. HowardThe black race was doomed. They were destroyers, not builders. When they slew the white men, progress ceased. The blacks reverted to savagery. They did not even know the art of making weapons. They had destroyed and could not rebuild. And they were going back to bestial savagery, and to a slaughtering of one another which even their animal-like rate of birth could not control.

It explicitly says "when they slew white men, progress ceased". That differentiates the races by their capacity for progress. Why wouldn't the black people make weapons and weapon factories for themselves, if they were capable?

Because "They did not even know the art of making weapons." Meaning MODERN weapons of course.

So a century after the 1920s, black people have unified, invaded Europe and then America - and they never learn how to make guns. ?!? Yes, I agree the story says that they never learned the art -- and it also says that they reverted to savagery, could not make progress, and couldn't build.

I'd submit that this is a negative portrayal of the black race as incompetent - and implausibly so to a monumental degree. By 1920, Africans had already warred with Europeans using guns for centuries. The first shots of the French conquest of Algeria, say, were the Dey directing cannon fire at blockading French ships. Yes, European guns were superior to African guns, but that doesn't mean that Africans were limited to spears.

In short, this is racist by portraying black people as inferior.


(Algerian camel gun circa 1830)

---

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 30, 2024, 02:45:22 PMBut more importantly, since you OBVIOUSLY read my posts, care to tell us WHY is TLWM in any way shape or form RELEVANT in a discussion about Conan stories?

The general thread isn't about Conan stories. It is about the Rascal article by Daniel Justice, who made a broad comment on R.E. Howard's writing in general, "especially" Conan but not exclusively.

If you don't care about "The Last White Man", don't respond. If people let it drop, then we can move on to discussion of Conan stories. I think the discussion of "The Last White Man" is interesting because it clearly highlights some of our differences in how we evaluate racism. Also, it's interesting because the character is clearly very Conan-like and it describes similar themes about the rise and fall of civilizations compared to his later work.

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 30, 2024, 07:51:37 PMYou've been using The Last White Man as a source for your argument. Yet The Last White Man is an unfinished manuscript by REH and that unfinished manuscript was never published until after he died, so how can you claim that it is representative of his works? Since it's only relation to the Conan stories is that they are by the same author, how can you claim that it is representative of the Conan stories?

I don't claim that "The Last White Man" is representative of Howard in general. It's his most racist story that I know of. I cited it because Krazz claimed that there was no evidence of racism on Howard's part, and I felt that it was clear evidence.

However, Krazz and others have strongly disagreed about that and claim there is no racism there, which I found surprising. A few of other posters (Venka, KindaMeh, and anon) have agreed that it is obviously racist.

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 30, 2024, 07:51:37 PMAnd where is your source for this quote from Howard to Tevis?

My source for that quote is the link that you yourself cited in Reply #35. I'll give it again below.

https://reh.world/stories/the-last-white-man/

Then if the unfinished manuscript The Last White Man is not representative of your claimed racism of Robert E Howard, then why do you keep using it as proof? Why do you keep saying that his Conan stories are racist?

Why do you continue to be intellectually dishonest?

Quote from: jhkim on May 30, 2024, 08:17:23 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 30, 2024, 02:45:22 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 30, 2024, 02:18:31 PM

Quote from: R.E. HowardThe black race was doomed. They were destroyers, not builders. When they slew the white men, progress ceased. The blacks reverted to savagery. They did not even know the art of making weapons. They had destroyed and could not rebuild. And they were going back to bestial savagery, and to a slaughtering of one another which even their animal-like rate of birth could not control.

It explicitly says "when they slew white men, progress ceased". That differentiates the races by their capacity for progress. Why wouldn't the black people make weapons and weapon factories for themselves, if they were capable?

Because "They did not even know the art of making weapons." Meaning MODERN weapons of course.

So a century after the 1920s, black people have unified, invaded Europe and then America - and they never learn how to make guns. ?!? Yes, I agree the story says that they never learned the art -- and it also says that they reverted to savagery, could not make progress, and couldn't build.

I'd submit that this is a negative portrayal of the black race as incompetent - and implausibly so to a monumental degree. By 1920, Africans had already warred with Europeans using guns for centuries. The first shots of the French conquest of Algeria, say, were the Dey directing cannon fire at blockading French ships. Yes, European guns were superior to African guns, but that doesn't mean that Africans were limited to spears.

In short, this is racist by portraying black people as inferior.


(Algerian camel gun circa 1830)

---

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 30, 2024, 02:45:22 PMBut more importantly, since you OBVIOUSLY read my posts, care to tell us WHY is TLWM in any way shape or form RELEVANT in a discussion about Conan stories?

The general thread isn't about Conan stories. It is about the Rascal article by Daniel Justice, who made a broad comment on R.E. Howard's writing in general, "especially" Conan but not exclusively.

If you don't care about "The Last White Man", don't respond. If people let it drop, then we can move on to discussion of Conan stories. I think the discussion of "The Last White Man" is interesting because it clearly highlights some of our differences in how we evaluate racism. Also, it's interesting because the character is clearly very Conan-like and it describes similar themes about the rise and fall of civilizations compared to his later work.

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 30, 2024, 07:51:37 PMYou've been using The Last White Man as a source for your argument. Yet The Last White Man is an unfinished manuscript by REH and that unfinished manuscript was never published until after he died, so how can you claim that it is representative of his works? Since it's only relation to the Conan stories is that they are by the same author, how can you claim that it is representative of the Conan stories?

I don't claim that "The Last White Man" is representative of Howard in general. It's his most racist story that I know of. I cited it because Krazz claimed that there was no evidence of racism on Howard's part, and I felt that it was clear evidence.

However, Krazz and others have strongly disagreed about that and claim there is no racism there, which I found surprising. A few of other posters (Venka, KindaMeh, and anon) have agreed that it is obviously racist.

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 30, 2024, 07:51:37 PMAnd where is your source for this quote from Howard to Tevis?

My source for that quote is the link that you yourself cited in Reply #35. I'll give it again below.

https://reh.world/stories/the-last-white-man/

And a little over a century after 1920 how many gun manufacturers are in Africa? With ANY quality as to compete with the rest of the world?

Building a makeshift gun is relatively easy, manufacturing an AR-15 not quite.

How many of you Americans would buy guns made by the Mexican manufacturer?

Ours are obviously inferior, not because of our "race" but lack of competition and free market.

But lets say you're 100% correct on your lecture of an unfinished manuscript, so, whatever character a writer creates is nothing but the writer's self insert? Or is this reserved for those you want to tar with charges of istophobia?

So, REH, having written more than one female led story was really trans?

Therefore, Simon and Kirby by creating the Red Skull & Captain America were at the same time (Jewish) nazis and anti-nazis?

Ergo Garth Ennis & Darick Robertson by creating The Boys are a couple of sociopaths?

And YOU by creating whatever evil NPC AND roleplaying it are nothing but whatever type of evil said NPCs were, right?

ALSO:

QuoteAnd soon the Tolkienesque template of D&D began to chafe, as did the varied inheritors of Tolkien's literary imaginings. (The other great influence on D&D's world-building, Robert E. Howard, especially his Conan works, held no appeal for me whatsoever, as there was no beauty, no grace, no romance—just blood, brutality, butchery, and overt racism.) As much as I loved Middle-earth, it was still a world where lordship was borne in the blood, where inheriting country gentry were served faithfully by loving and dutiful servants, of the uncertain triumph of "Western civilization" over the dark and fallen peoples who stood against it. And while Tolkien's orcs and their filmic, gaming, and media iterations have been shaped by and expanded on savagist anti-Black and anti-Asian stereotypes, they're also informed by stereotypical ideas about Indigenous primitivism (as are his Drúedain, the reclusive Woses who aid the Rohirrim on their way to the Battle of the Pelennor Fields).

Why you always lying?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 30, 2024, 07:46:49 PMAnd this is RELEVANT in a discussion about Conan HOW?

It's not and he knows its not. He's basically threadcrapping.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 30, 2024, 09:24:25 PMALSO:

QuoteAnd soon the Tolkienesque template of D&D began to chafe, as did the varied inheritors of Tolkien's literary imaginings. (The other great influence on D&D's world-building, Robert E. Howard, especially his Conan works, held no appeal for me whatsoever, as there was no beauty, no grace, no romance—just blood, brutality, butchery, and overt racism.) As much as I loved Middle-earth, it was still a world where lordship was borne in the blood, where inheriting country gentry were served faithfully by loving and dutiful servants, of the uncertain triumph of "Western civilization" over the dark and fallen peoples who stood against it. And while Tolkien's orcs and their filmic, gaming, and media iterations have been shaped by and expanded on savagist anti-Black and anti-Asian stereotypes, they're also informed by stereotypical ideas about Indigenous primitivism (as are his Drúedain, the reclusive Woses who aid the Rohirrim on their way to the Battle of the Pelennor Fields).

I just clocked this now, but the fact that he calls Howard "The other great influence on D&D's worldbuilding" as if Tolkien and Howard are the only two, or they stand head and shoulders above other influences, betrays a profound ignorance of the influences of D&D. You have to wonder if this guy is totally ignorant of Fritz Leiber, Poul Anderson and Jack Vance, all of whom are as influential on D&D if not moreso.

At any rate, this thread does have a silver lining: it got me to pull out my REH collection again to fill in the gaps in my reading. Cracked open "Sword Woman and other Historical Tales" last night, and have been enjoying the Bran Mak Morn audiobook in the car all day.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 30, 2024, 09:24:25 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 30, 2024, 08:17:23 PM

Quote from: R.E. HowardThe black race was doomed. They were destroyers, not builders. When they slew the white men, progress ceased. The blacks reverted to savagery. They did not even know the art of making weapons. They had destroyed and could not rebuild. And they were going back to bestial savagery, and to a slaughtering of one another which even their animal-like rate of birth could not control.

So a century after the 1920s, black people have unified, invaded Europe and then America - and they never learn how to make guns. ?!? Yes, I agree the story says that they never learned the art -- and it also says that they reverted to savagery, could not make progress, and couldn't build.

I'd submit that this is a negative portrayal of the black race as incompetent - and implausibly so to a monumental degree. By 1920, Africans had already warred with Europeans using guns for centuries. The first shots of the French conquest of Algeria, say, were the Dey directing cannon fire at blockading French ships. Yes, European guns were superior to African guns, but that doesn't mean that Africans were limited to spears.

And a little over a century after 1920 how many gun manufacturers are in Africa? With ANY quality as to compete with the rest of the world?

Building a makeshift gun is relatively easy, manufacturing an AR-15 not quite.

How many of you Americans would buy guns made by the Mexican manufacturer?

There are vast oceans between the claims:

(A) Local African gun makers aren't competitive on the global market with American and Russian gun makers.

(B) The black race doesn't know how to make guns, and if whites stopped supplying them they would go back to chucking spears.

The latter is what the story says, and you're trying to support it by pointing out (A).

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 30, 2024, 09:24:25 PMBut lets say you're 100% correct on your lecture of an unfinished manuscript, so, whatever character a writer creates is nothing but the writer's self insert? Or is this reserved for those you want to tar with charges of istophobia?

None of my arguments have rested on the nature of the character. The key is events of the world history -- like Africans having to go back to spears when they can't get guns from the white man.

Are you claiming that the world events are unreliable narration -- that the blacks really had guns, and it was just the main character's racism that made him think they were using spears?

Quote from: jhkim on May 31, 2024, 12:47:48 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 30, 2024, 09:24:25 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 30, 2024, 08:17:23 PM

Quote from: R.E. HowardThe black race was doomed. They were destroyers, not builders. When they slew the white men, progress ceased. The blacks reverted to savagery. They did not even know the art of making weapons. They had destroyed and could not rebuild. And they were going back to bestial savagery, and to a slaughtering of one another which even their animal-like rate of birth could not control.

So a century after the 1920s, black people have unified, invaded Europe and then America - and they never learn how to make guns. ?!? Yes, I agree the story says that they never learned the art -- and it also says that they reverted to savagery, could not make progress, and couldn't build.

I'd submit that this is a negative portrayal of the black race as incompetent - and implausibly so to a monumental degree. By 1920, Africans had already warred with Europeans using guns for centuries. The first shots of the French conquest of Algeria, say, were the Dey directing cannon fire at blockading French ships. Yes, European guns were superior to African guns, but that doesn't mean that Africans were limited to spears.

And a little over a century after 1920 how many gun manufacturers are in Africa? With ANY quality as to compete with the rest of the world?

Building a makeshift gun is relatively easy, manufacturing an AR-15 not quite.

How many of you Americans would buy guns made by the Mexican manufacturer?

There are vast oceans between the claims:

(A) Local African gun makers aren't competitive on the global market with American and Russian gun makers.

(B) The black race doesn't know how to make guns, and if whites stopped supplying them they would go back to chucking spears.

The latter is what the story says, and you're trying to support it by pointing out (A).

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 30, 2024, 09:24:25 PMBut lets say you're 100% correct on your lecture of an unfinished manuscript, so, whatever character a writer creates is nothing but the writer's self insert? Or is this reserved for those you want to tar with charges of istophobia?

None of my arguments have rested on the nature of the character. The key is events of the world history -- like Africans having to go back to spears when they can't get guns from the white man.

Are you claiming that the world events are unreliable narration -- that the blacks really had guns, and it was just the main character's racism that made him think they were using spears?

Enough with your threadcrapping, i'm just gonna ignore you in this or any other thread you choose to derail.

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on May 30, 2024, 11:16:12 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 30, 2024, 07:46:49 PMAnd this is RELEVANT in a discussion about Conan HOW?

It's not and he knows its not. He's basically threadcrapping.

And I'm guilty for playing along, but no more.

Quote from: jhkim on May 30, 2024, 08:17:23 PMThe general thread isn't about Conan stories. It is about the Rascal article by Daniel Justice, who made a broad comment on R.E. Howard's writing in general, "especially" Conan but not exclusively.

The claim he made and that you are defending is that Howard's work, especially his Conan stories, are full of overt racism.  If that were true, it should be easy to find several example of this especially from the Conan stories.  You haven't done that though.  You haven't even attempted to do that.  You have cherry-picked a single story that's not a Conan story and talked incessantly about that one story.  It's a story that he wrote when he was 17 years old.  It's a story that was not published until nearly three decades after his death.  It's a story that only survives as an unfinished manuscript.  How about this.  Give me 5 examples of overt racism in Conan stories that survive in complete form and were published during his life time.  If Howard's work is as full of overt racism as this guy claims, there should be plenty of examples.  There shouldn't be any need to talk solely about a single marginal example

You aren't doing something like this because you can't and you know it.  An actual, fair examination of Howard's work would show that it is not full of overt racism as claimed.  That's why you are doing everything you can to talk about this one story and only this one story and avoid talking about the actual topic under discussion.  This is just more of your usual disingenuous antics.   

Quote from: jhkim on May 30, 2024, 08:17:23 PMI cited it because Krazz claimed that there was no evidence of racism on Howard's part.

I did no such thing. The question of whether Howard was racist is:

1) Off-topic
2) Something I have made no claims about
3) Something I'm not interested in

Let's move the goalposts back where they started, shall we? If you want to discuss whether Howard was racist, I suggest making a new thread outside the RPG area.

So the quote that started this off was:

QuoteThe other great influence on D&D's world-building, Robert E. Howard, especially his Conan works, held no appeal for me whatsoever, as there was no beauty, no grace, no romance—just blood, brutality, butchery, and overt racism.

So it's not a claim that Howard was racist, but that his works that influenced D&D, especially the Conan stories, were overtly racist.

My statement, made on page 2, was that I'd never seen any evidence of these claims of Howard's works being overtly racist. I still stand by that statement.

What would make me change my mind? Quotes from those stories showing overt racism. Instead, we have discussion of an unfinished manuscript which has suggestions of racism in it. But nothing overt. The blacks in the story can't make guns. Is that because they're too stupid to, or because the factories are destroyed? We don't know. Overt racism would make that clear, and we'd have a line such as "the blacks were too stupid to make guns like the whites before them". We don't have any such line.

So 10 pages further into the discussion, and my statement still stands: I've yet to see any evidence of Howard's work being overtly racist. If such quotes existed, I strongly suspect we'd have seen them in this thread by now.

Quote from: Brad on May 30, 2024, 05:12:17 PM

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on May 30, 2024, 02:05:04 PMIronically they feel exactly the same way about folks like you.

Imagine thinking I give a fuck what Satanic pedophiles think of me...

EDIT: Also immaterial bullshit, as I've already said multiple times. Marxists can't allow any sort of discussion to take place that they're not in control of, hence the constant injection of "isms" into every single fucking conversation. Your "both sides" nonsense is arguably worse than their moronic positions.

 Ditto.  The time for tolerance is coming to an end.

As for racism in Conan stories...guess what in any time period where Conan-like things were happening everyone was very racist.  I am fine with calling Conan and REH racists.  I am also fine with reading and enjoying his stories more now than ever.

  Of course REH was flawed in his examination of Africa and how it was functioning in his time (if we assume the character's statements are a metaphor for what Howard was seeing-or thought he saw in the real world).  If only he could see now how the continent has become a shining beacon of civilization and technological advancement.  Too bad he died before he could witness that. 

Quote from: yosemitemike on May 31, 2024, 02:20:23 AMAn actual, fair examination of Howard's work would show that it is not full of overt racism as claimed.  That's why you are doing everything you can to talk about this one story and only this one story and avoid talking about the actual topic under discussion.

The problem is how to identify overt racism in a story. I believe that "The Last White Man" has overt racism that is blatant and obvious. There were at least a few posters who agreed with me on this point (Venka, KindaMeh, anon).

But a bunch of other posters have shot back that there is no evidence of overt racism in "The Last White Man".

According to them, I haven't shown anything and the story isn't overtly racist. I still think that the stuff that I've pointed to in the story *is* overtly racist -- we are just disagreeing over this point.

Since we're continuing to disagree over the first example that I brought up, whatever we're disagreeing on in this story is most certainly going to be an issue in any other story by Howard.

I think someone could make a reasonable argument that "The Last White Man" does have overt racism, but that Howard's stories in general don't have enough overt racism to be worth noting. (yosemitemike - you use the term "full of" but that isn't the language that Daniel Justice used.) Thus far, no one has taken up that banner, though.

Quote from: Krazz on May 31, 2024, 06:19:14 AM

Quote from: jhkim on May 30, 2024, 08:17:23 PMI cited it because Krazz claimed that there was no evidence of racism on Howard's part.

So 10 pages further into the discussion, and my statement still stands: I've yet to see any evidence of Howard's work being overtly racist. If such quotes existed, I strongly suspect we'd have seen them in this thread by now.

My apologies about leaving out the "overt" regarding your position. I do still believe that "The Last White Man" contains overt racism that I've already pointed to, but I understand that you don't agree.

Since you thought this correction was important, do you think there is evidence of non-overt racism in Howard's works? i.e. If the comment said "racism" instead of "overt racism", would that change things?

Quote from: jhkim on May 31, 2024, 11:59:00 AM

Quote from: yosemitemike on May 31, 2024, 02:20:23 AMAn actual, fair examination of Howard's work would show that it is not full of overt racism as claimed.  That's why you are doing everything you can to talk about this one story and only this one story and avoid talking about the actual topic under discussion.

The problem is how to identify overt racism in a story. I believe that "The Last White Man" has overt racism that is blatant and obvious. There were at least a few posters who agreed with me on this point (Venka, KindaMeh, anon).

But a bunch of other posters have shot back that there is no evidence of overt racism in "The Last White Man".

According to them, I haven't shown anything and the story isn't overtly racist. I still think that the stuff that I've pointed to in the story *is* overtly racist -- we are just disagreeing over this point.

Since we're continuing to disagree over the first example that I brought up, whatever we're disagreeing on in this story is most certainly going to be an issue in any other story by Howard.

I think someone could make a reasonable argument that "The Last White Man" does have overt racism, but that Howard's stories in general don't have enough overt racism to be worth noting. (yosemitemike - you use the term "full of" but that isn't the language that Daniel Justice used.) Thus far, no one has taken up that banner, though.

Quote from: Krazz on May 31, 2024, 06:19:14 AM

Quote from: jhkim on May 30, 2024, 08:17:23 PMI cited it because Krazz claimed that there was no evidence of racism on Howard's part.

So 10 pages further into the discussion, and my statement still stands: I've yet to see any evidence of Howard's work being overtly racist. If such quotes existed, I strongly suspect we'd have seen them in this thread by now.

My apologies about leaving out the "overt" regarding your position. I do still believe that "The Last White Man" contains overt racism that I've already pointed to, but I understand that you don't agree.

Since you thought this correction was important, do you think there is evidence of non-overt racism in Howard's works? i.e. If the comment said "racism" instead of "overt racism", would that change things?

So now that you are starting to use the term overt racism, you must believe that there is covert racism. You know covert racism, the belief that certain nebulous indicators demonstrate racism. Like how you keep claiming that REH was a racist to hide the fact that it is actually jhkim who is racist!

Quote from: jhkim on May 31, 2024, 11:59:00 AM

Quote from: Krazz on May 31, 2024, 06:19:14 AMSo 10 pages further into the discussion, and my statement still stands: I've yet to see any evidence of Howard's work being overtly racist. If such quotes existed, I strongly suspect we'd have seen them in this thread by now.

My apologies about leaving out the "overt" regarding your position. I do still believe that "The Last White Man" contains overt racism that I've already pointed to, but I understand that you don't agree.

Since you thought this correction was important, do you think there is evidence of non-overt racism in Howard's works? i.e. If the comment said "racism" instead of "overt racism", would that change things?

So, to give the first definition of overt that I found online:

Quotedone or shown openly; plainly apparent:

That's a very important modifier in the original Justice quote, and one I've been at pains to keep in all my reactions to it. So this is racism that's shown openly. And I maintain that there's nothing of that in The Last White Man; if there were, we'd all reasonably agree. I didn't read it and see anywhere that Howard openly showed that blacks were mentally or morally inferior to whites.

As to whether there's covert racism - that's an entirely different question, and off-topic for this thread about Justice's claim of overt racism. The nature of it being covert means that people will disagree as to whether its existence can be inferred. Add to that that we live in a time when claims of covert racism are very high, and I don't want to touch that question with a bargepole.