Quote from: Anon Adderlan on May 27, 2024, 03:07:08 AMOf course REH's racism influenced his work. Who cares? Of course REH's story about a global race war was racist. Who cares? The only thing relevant was the possible racism in Conan, which @jhkin eventually provided a (solid) example of.

You say it's obvious that "The Last White Man" is racist. I agree, as have Venka and KindaMeh. (Apologies to KindaMeh for not catching all of it.) On the other hand, krazz, jeff37923, Omega, and SHARK have all argued that it isn't racist.

The relevance to me about "The Last White Man" is why we disagree. How is it that you (Anon) say "of course" it is racist, but others strongly argue against that conclusion? I think that core disagreement is going to also apply to any discussion of Conan stories.

I don't mean to lump posters into just two sides, though. Notably, jeff37923 that a story cannot be racist - it can only have racist characters. (reply #86) Eirikrautha had an earlier reply (#81) where he thought some stories could be racist - but this couldn't apply to Howard.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on May 24, 2024, 04:54:13 PMWere you actually capable of "in-depth" literary analysis, you would recognize that one of the, if not the, most important elements in understand a work of fiction is the theme.  You conjure The Birth of a Nation as an example in your posts above.  Well, that film can easily be said to have at its core a very racial (and racist) theme.  To define it by that theme is neither inappropriate nor reductive.  But the Conan stories?  Their themes are far different, primarily dealing with the decadence and duplicity of civilization.

I wouldn't say that "The Birth of a Nation" is defined by its racist theme. I'll admit that I only watched it because of it being famous for racism, but it was hailed as an artistic masterpiece for decades after its release - and reasonably so. It is an extremely innovative movie, with themes about the identity of the U.S. reconciling after the Civil War.

I'd say Howard's "The Last White Man" is at least as much about race as "The Birth of a Nation" is - but again, that doesn't mean that it - or any other story - is defined by racism. His other stories are less centered on race, but that doesn't mean that racism is only in this story and no others. In particular, "The Last White Man" was written years before the first Conan story, but it shows clearly the themes of civilization falling into decadence that you mention.

From "The Last White Man":

Quote from: R.E. HowardWhat heights his race had reached before luxuries, idleness and pleasures had sapped their might; had made of them a race of degenerate weaklings. He cursed beneath his breath.

There had been an age when his race had ruled the world. Their cities dotted the fertile plains. Their ships had furrowed the seas, bringing back the wealth of every land. Their armies had gone forth conquering and subjugating.

None could stand before them in the more peaceful sports. Their athletes defeated all others with ease. They were all giants, physically and mentally.

Then the decadence set in. It had been first noticeable in the sports and athletics. Fewer and fewer of the race had gained fame in the great games. More and more men of other races seized the prizes.

The ruling race forgot the art of war, forgot all except the search for newer pleasures, and in so doing, they descended to the depths of degeneracy.

Always some new strong race sprang up then, the man reflected, thinking of the hazy legends of the ancients, of great empires known as Greece, Rome, Nineveh, Sumeria.

And a new, strong race had risen. A race whose people had been enslaved for ages.

They were a mighty, a prolific race. First they overran their own continent. Rebellions swept Africa. The negroes pushed the Arab races to the north and the Arabs and Europeans slew each other, until from Cape Town to Tangiers, and from Kimberly to Suez only black men ruled.

The whites should have seen that they could not stand before them. The black race doubles itself in forty years, the brown in sixty, the white in eighty. And the white race was exhausted by dissipation; birth rate almost ceased. Moreover, the race was decimated by fierce wars, wherein white man fought white man.

First of all, I think that his theme here is racist. It projects a fundamental conflict between white people and black people, as entities, rather than race being an incidental trait. That seems obvious to me, but there are posters who disagree.

Second, I think that this is clearly connected to common themes in his later writing - especially his Conan stories.

To those who deny that this is racist, I think it's clearly ignoring a part of him - that connects into his themes of civilization.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 27, 2024, 04:49:24 PMHere's Shadows in Zamboula, now, can anyone point EXACTLY where is the racismism?

GeekyBugle, I quoted a number of sections in Reply #29. I can discuss the individual quotes more.

But to clarify first, do you think that there is racism in Howard's story "The Last White Man"? If so, how would you point out where that racism is to posters who disagree?

Quote from: jhkim on May 29, 2024, 02:21:12 AM

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on May 27, 2024, 03:07:08 AMOf course REH's racism influenced his work. Who cares? Of course REH's story about a global race war was racist. Who cares? The only thing relevant was the possible racism in Conan, which @jhkin eventually provided a (solid) example of.

You say it's obvious that "The Last White Man" is racist. I agree, as have Venka and KindaMeh. (Apologies to KindaMeh for not catching all of it.) On the other hand, krazz, jeff37923, Omega, and SHARK have all argued that it isn't racist.

The relevance to me about "The Last White Man" is why we disagree. How is it that you (Anon) say "of course" it is racist, but others strongly argue against that conclusion? I think that core disagreement is going to also apply to any discussion of Conan stories.

I don't mean to lump posters into just two sides, though. Notably, jeff37923 that a story cannot be racist - it can only have racist characters. (reply #86) Eirikrautha had an earlier reply (#81) where he thought some stories could be racist - but this couldn't apply to Howard.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on May 24, 2024, 04:54:13 PMWere you actually capable of "in-depth" literary analysis, you would recognize that one of the, if not the, most important elements in understand a work of fiction is the theme.  You conjure The Birth of a Nation as an example in your posts above.  Well, that film can easily be said to have at its core a very racial (and racist) theme.  To define it by that theme is neither inappropriate nor reductive.  But the Conan stories?  Their themes are far different, primarily dealing with the decadence and duplicity of civilization.

I wouldn't say that "The Birth of a Nation" is defined by its racist theme. I'll admit that I only watched it because of it being famous for racism, but it was hailed as an artistic masterpiece for decades after its release - and reasonably so. It is an extremely innovative movie, with themes about the identity of the U.S. reconciling after the Civil War.

I'd say Howard's "The Last White Man" is at least as much about race as "The Birth of a Nation" is - but again, that doesn't mean that it - or any other story - is defined by racism. His other stories are less centered on race, but that doesn't mean that racism is only in this story and no others. In particular, "The Last White Man" was written years before the first Conan story, but it shows clearly the themes of civilization falling into decadence that you mention.

From "The Last White Man":

Quote from: R.E. HowardWhat heights his race had reached before luxuries, idleness and pleasures had sapped their might; had made of them a race of degenerate weaklings. He cursed beneath his breath.

There had been an age when his race had ruled the world. Their cities dotted the fertile plains. Their ships had furrowed the seas, bringing back the wealth of every land. Their armies had gone forth conquering and subjugating.

None could stand before them in the more peaceful sports. Their athletes defeated all others with ease. They were all giants, physically and mentally.

Then the decadence set in. It had been first noticeable in the sports and athletics. Fewer and fewer of the race had gained fame in the great games. More and more men of other races seized the prizes.

The ruling race forgot the art of war, forgot all except the search for newer pleasures, and in so doing, they descended to the depths of degeneracy.

Always some new strong race sprang up then, the man reflected, thinking of the hazy legends of the ancients, of great empires known as Greece, Rome, Nineveh, Sumeria.

And a new, strong race had risen. A race whose people had been enslaved for ages.

They were a mighty, a prolific race. First they overran their own continent. Rebellions swept Africa. The negroes pushed the Arab races to the north and the Arabs and Europeans slew each other, until from Cape Town to Tangiers, and from Kimberly to Suez only black men ruled.

The whites should have seen that they could not stand before them. The black race doubles itself in forty years, the brown in sixty, the white in eighty. And the white race was exhausted by dissipation; birth rate almost ceased. Moreover, the race was decimated by fierce wars, wherein white man fought white man.

First of all, I think that his theme here is racist. It projects a fundamental conflict between white people and black people, as entities, rather than race being an incidental trait. That seems obvious to me, but there are posters who disagree.

Second, I think that this is clearly connected to common themes in his later writing - especially his Conan stories.

To those who deny that this is racist, I think it's clearly ignoring a part of him - that connects into his themes of civilization.

Since jhkim is adamant about The Last White Man being racist and not just a story using racist characters to further the plot, obviously jhkim is also racist for only seeing this aspect.

Do you now see how your own logic works?

Quote from: jhkim on May 29, 2024, 02:21:12 AMI don't mean to lump posters into just two sides, though. Notably, jeff37923 that a story cannot be racist - it can only have racist characters. (reply #86) Eirikrautha had an earlier reply (#81) where he thought some stories could be racist - but this couldn't apply to Howard.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on May 24, 2024, 04:54:13 PMWere you actually capable of "in-depth" literary analysis, you would recognize that one of the, if not the, most important elements in understand a work of fiction is the theme.  You conjure The Birth of a Nation as an example in your posts above.  Well, that film can easily be said to have at its core a very racial (and racist) theme.  To define it by that theme is neither inappropriate nor reductive.  But the Conan stories?  Their themes are far different, primarily dealing with the decadence and duplicity of civilization.

I wouldn't say that "The Birth of a Nation" is defined by its racist theme. I'll admit that I only watched it because of it being famous for racism, but it was hailed as an artistic masterpiece for decades after its release - and reasonably so. It is an extremely innovative movie, with themes about the identity of the U.S. reconciling after the Civil War.

I'd say Howard's "The Last White Man" is at least as much about race as "The Birth of a Nation" is - but again, that doesn't mean that it - or any other story - is defined by racism. His other stories are less centered on race, but that doesn't mean that racism is only in this story and no others. In particular, "The Last White Man" was written years before the first Conan story, but it shows clearly the themes of civilization falling into decadence that you mention.

From "The Last White Man":

Quote from: R.E. HowardWhat heights his race had reached before luxuries, idleness and pleasures had sapped their might; had made of them a race of degenerate weaklings. He cursed beneath his breath.

There had been an age when his race had ruled the world. Their cities dotted the fertile plains. Their ships had furrowed the seas, bringing back the wealth of every land. Their armies had gone forth conquering and subjugating.

None could stand before them in the more peaceful sports. Their athletes defeated all others with ease. They were all giants, physically and mentally.

Then the decadence set in. It had been first noticeable in the sports and athletics. Fewer and fewer of the race had gained fame in the great games. More and more men of other races seized the prizes.

The ruling race forgot the art of war, forgot all except the search for newer pleasures, and in so doing, they descended to the depths of degeneracy.

Always some new strong race sprang up then, the man reflected, thinking of the hazy legends of the ancients, of great empires known as Greece, Rome, Nineveh, Sumeria.

And a new, strong race had risen. A race whose people had been enslaved for ages.

They were a mighty, a prolific race. First they overran their own continent. Rebellions swept Africa. The negroes pushed the Arab races to the north and the Arabs and Europeans slew each other, until from Cape Town to Tangiers, and from Kimberly to Suez only black men ruled.

The whites should have seen that they could not stand before them. The black race doubles itself in forty years, the brown in sixty, the white in eighty. And the white race was exhausted by dissipation; birth rate almost ceased. Moreover, the race was decimated by fierce wars, wherein white man fought white man.

First of all, I think that his theme here is racist. It projects a fundamental conflict between white people and black people, as entities, rather than race being an incidental trait. That seems obvious to me, but there are posters who disagree.

Second, I think that this is clearly connected to common themes in his later writing - especially his Conan stories.

To those who deny that this is racist, I think it's clearly ignoring a part of him - that connects into his themes of civilization.

Bullshit.  I'm not letting you get away with your duplicity.  First, point out where in my quote I said "some stories could be racist - but this couldn't apply to Howard."  This is a blatant misrepresentation, and you know it.  Nowhere in that did I say Howard couldn't be racist.  In fact, right below the passage you quoted, I said,

QuoteWere there passages in REH works that would be considered racist today?  Yes.

So you know your statement is a lie.  Of course Howard's work could be racist.  Especially depending on whose sensibilities you use.  The point is that Howard's Conan stories had other major themes, and that racism was not a major theme, or even a minor one, in Conan.  The fact that you would try and rehabilitate The Birth of a Nation to try and buttress your argument is ludicrous.  One of the primary themes of the whole film is racial distrust!  But you are claiming that that's not a main theme of the movie?  You sound like a white supremacist with these excuses!  (Just for your info, the primary reason The Birth of a Nation is considered a "classic" today and studied is because of its cinematography, direction, and editing innovations (like the fade cut, etc.), and not for its themes).  So, no, Conan is NOT thematically comparable to The Birth of a Nation.

But you're not going to use a brief mention (and misrepresentation) to avoid the main questions I asked.  So, here it is a THIRD time:

QuoteYou are normally the person here who objects to gross generalizations and reductive statements, yet suddenly [Daniel Justice's evaluation] is accurate and acceptable?

...Daniel Justice's "analysis" of the Conan stories is superficial and reductive.  It cherry-picks a few elements, ignoring the overarching themes, and is the kind of thing one would expect from a first year lit student.  I.e., it's garbage "analysis.  Do you agree?"

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 29, 2024, 05:59:12 AMSince jhkim is adamant about The Last White Man being racist and not just a story using racist characters to further the plot, obviously jhkim is also racist for only seeing this aspect.

Do you now see how your own logic works?

I think it has been firmly established that Marxists are, indeed, insanely racist and hide it under the guise of "inclusion". They remove all "problematic" material which results in actual cultural erasure so they can implement their own version of the truth.

ANYWAY, I think at this point we can assume anything released for D&D(tm) in the future is going to be a complete waste of money. SAD!

Quote from: Brad on May 29, 2024, 09:18:07 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on May 29, 2024, 05:59:12 AMSince jhkim is adamant about The Last White Man being racist and not just a story using racist characters to further the plot, obviously jhkim is also racist for only seeing this aspect.

Do you now see how your own logic works?

I think it has been firmly established that Marxists are, indeed, insanely racist and hide it under the guise of "inclusion". They remove all "problematic" material which results in actual cultural erasure so they can implement their own version of the truth.

ANYWAY, I think at this point we can assume anything released for D&D(tm) in the future is going to be a complete waste of money. SAD!

Please add "post-modernism is a load a fetid dingo's kidneys" in regards to this discussion as well.

Why?

When talking about REH and HPL, is very easy for someone to impose post-modernist ideas onto their writings, points-of-view etc. which as a historian I despise. Taking REH and HPL out of the context of the time they lived and wrote does a disservice to them. Yes, they may be viewed from a "modern" standpoint, but it doesn't matter. Their view on race for the time period was considered normal. It doesn't make it right or wrong. It's a product of it's time. So, those of you saying REH and HPL racists are taking them out of historical context, no matter how truthful and uncomfortable that makes you feel.

It's about facts, not feelings.

Quote from: jhkim on May 29, 2024, 02:21:12 AMYou say it's obvious that "The Last White Man" is racist. I agree, as have Venka and KindaMeh. (Apologies to KindaMeh for not catching all of it.) On the other hand, krazz, jeff37923, Omega, and SHARK have all argued that it isn't racist.

I've done nothing of the sort. I've not even read the story, so I wouldn't argue one way or the other, and I've not discussed it prior to this post. From what you've written, it sounds as racist as Planet of the Apes is anti-ape for showing a conflict along species lines. It's a story.

Unfortunately, I bear responsibility for knocking this whole discussion off track when I posted this:

QuoteI'm pretty sure he's never read any Howard either. No beauty? Good luck finding an ugly woman in Howard's works. They're there, but few and far between. No grace? In Conan's first story, he's saved at the will of a god to save the world from evil. No romance? Conan often gave up his dreams to save a woman. And these claims of "overt racism" never seem to have any evidence.

I still think that does a good job of destroying what I was arguing against, regardless of racism.

I was referring to the Conan stories, and I was a little sloppy talking about "any Howard". And note the quote: "overt racism". So not "I know what he had in mind, and trust me, he was racist". The claim was that there was overt racism in Howard's works, particularly his Conan stories. I still maintain that nobody has provided evidence of overt racism in any of Howard's works, and in particular his Conan stories, which were what was under discussion.

Here's a quote from HP Lovecraft that contains overt racism:

QuoteThe organic things—Italo-Semitico-Mongoloid—inhabiting that awful cesspool could not by any stretch of the imagination be call'd human.

Since people are arguing that overt racism is in Howard's works, could someone post something similar from a Howard story? Preferably a Conan one, to at least keep this thread vaguely on-track.

Quote from: jhkim on May 29, 2024, 02:25:14 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 27, 2024, 04:49:24 PMHere's Shadows in Zamboula, now, can anyone point EXACTLY where is the racismism?

GeekyBugle, I quoted a number of sections in Reply #29. I can discuss the individual quotes more.

But to clarify first, do you think that there is racism in Howard's story "The Last White Man"? If so, how would you point out where that racism is to posters who disagree?

IDGAFF about "The Last White Man", the discussion is about Conan.

In your quotes it's obscured that the one complaining about interacial breeding is a Zuagir, themselves not white but Middle Eastern, who also calls Conan his brother.

You quote several pasages with "negroes" guess that's raicismism too, but omit the part where Conan looks at the BROWN legs of a woman with healthy appreciation.

You also want to conflate the Darffar cannibals with ALL the black people from Conan's world.

I guess you chose that story to isolate BECAUSE it contains bad words for your modern sensibilities. Being a Mexican and having first read Conan in Spanish I don't carry the same cultural baggage as you, nor do I feel the need to blame myself for the sins of people who happen to look like me.

Now, is the Zuagir being raicismist? YES, does this mean the AUTHOR himself is racist? I guess to you it does.

So, if someone writes ANY character with some istophobia that makes them istophobes to you, but not to me.

I've read all of Conan's stuff, from the originals to the pastiches to the new stuff that has only the names in common.

I guess by your logic that makes REH racist against white people for writing the Hyperboreans as he did.

But to you commiefornians he should have written as a modern day seattleite.

Quote from: blackstone on May 29, 2024, 11:26:54 AMTaking REH and HPL out of the context of the time they live and wrote does a disservice to them. Yes, they may have been racist viewed from a "modern" standpoint, but it doesn't matter. Their view on race for the time period was considered normal. It doesn't make it right or wrong. It's a product of it's time. So, those of you saying REH and HPL racists are taking them out of historical context, no matter how truthful and uncomfortable that makes you feel.

It's about facts, not feelings.

It's not postmodernist to think words like "racism" should have a consistent and objective meaning. Yes, racism was common in REH's time -- but even at the time, there were people who used the term "racism" and opposed it. When "The Birth of a Nation" (1915) was released, there were huge protests over its racism - and it was banned in several major cities including Chicago and St. Louis.

It's moral relativism to say that the same terms don't apply to people from a different society.

Just because someone comes from a communist society, that doesn't mean that they're not communist. They're still a communist - it's just that their reasons for being communist should be considered to fully understand them. The same applies for racism.

If I read a story and don't know who the author is or when it was written, I can still describe it objectively and factually using words, including "racism".

---

Quote from: Eirikrautha on May 29, 2024, 07:22:16 AMFirst, point out where in my quote I said "some stories could be racist - but this couldn't apply to Howard."  This is a blatant misrepresentation, and you know it.  Nowhere in that did I say Howard couldn't be racist.  In fact, right below the passage you quoted, I said,

QuoteWere there passages in REH works that would be considered racist today?  Yes.

So you know your statement is a lie.  Of course Howard's work could be racist.  Especially depending on whose sensibilities you use.

Because of the passive voice, I read your quote as saying "Other people today would consider REH to be racist" - with the implication that they were wrong. I didn't think it defined your opinion.

But I don't want to put words in your mouth, so I'd ask for clarification. Do you think that any of Howard's work is racist? As in, you would consider them racist by your understanding of the true meaning of the word?

Quote from: jhkim on May 29, 2024, 01:05:18 PM

Quote from: blackstone on May 29, 2024, 11:26:54 AMTaking REH and HPL out of the context of the time they live and wrote does a disservice to them. Yes, they may have been racist viewed from a "modern" standpoint, but it doesn't matter. Their view on race for the time period was considered normal. It doesn't make it right or wrong. It's a product of it's time. So, those of you saying REH and HPL racists are taking them out of historical context, no matter how truthful and uncomfortable that makes you feel.

It's about facts, not feelings.

It's not postmodernist to think words like "racism" should have a consistent and objective meaning. Yes, racism was common in REH's time -- but even at the time, there were people who used the term "racism" and opposed it. When "The Birth of a Nation" (1915) was released, there were huge protests over its racism - and it was banned in several major cities including Chicago and St. Louis.

It's moral relativism to say that the same terms don't apply to people from a different society.

Just because someone comes from a communist society, that doesn't mean that they're not communist. They're still a communist - it's just that their reasons for being communist should be considered to fully understand them. The same applies for racism.

If I read a story and don't know who the author is or when it was written, I can still describe it objectively and factually using words, including "racism".

---

Quote from: Eirikrautha on May 29, 2024, 07:22:16 AMFirst, point out where in my quote I said "some stories could be racist - but this couldn't apply to Howard."  This is a blatant misrepresentation, and you know it.  Nowhere in that did I say Howard couldn't be racist.  In fact, right below the passage you quoted, I said,

QuoteWere there passages in REH works that would be considered racist today?  Yes.

So you know your statement is a lie.  Of course Howard's work could be racist.  Especially depending on whose sensibilities you use.

Because of the passive voice, I read your quote as saying "Other people today would consider REH to be racist" - with the implication that they were wrong. I didn't think it defined your opinion.

But I don't want to put words in your mouth, so I'd ask for clarification. Do you think that any of Howard's work is racist? As in, you would consider them racist by your understanding of the true meaning of the word?

Answer my question about Daniel Justice's analysis, and I'll be happy to answer yours.  I'm just tired of your disingenuous derailing...

Quote from: Eirikrautha on May 29, 2024, 07:22:16 AMYou are normally the person here who objects to gross generalizations and reductive statements, yet suddenly [Daniel Justice's evaluation] is accurate and acceptable?

...Daniel Justice's "analysis" of the Conan stories is superficial and reductive.  It cherry-picks a few elements, ignoring the overarching themes, and is the kind of thing one would expect from a first year lit student.  I.e., it's garbage "analysis.  Do you agree?"

That's a fair request. I'll quote Justice's comment on Howard again for clarity.

Quote from: Daniel Justice(The other great influence on D&D's world-building, Robert E. Howard, especially his Conan works, held no appeal for me whatsoever, as there was no beauty, no grace, no romance—just blood, brutality, butchery, and overt racism.)

I disagree that this is intended as analysis of any sort. It is a single sentence in explicit parentheses, and it is phrased as a personal reaction -- i.e. "held no appeal for me".

As a personal statement of his reaction, it sounds like that was genuinely his reaction to REH's writing. Based on that, I'm pretty sure that he hasn't read the entire REH corpus, given that he didn't like it.

I enjoy much of Howard's writing, but I don't feel any need to say that people are objectively wrong if they don't like it. For example, I can understand how a gay man like Justice finds no romance or beauty in the Conan stories.

I might respond that I enjoy Howard's stories to a fair degree because they are brutal and unromantic, and also primal and visceral and sensual, expressing in a powerful and iconic way key male fantasies. I don't agree with Howard's racism, and especially as a Christian, I don't endorse the savagery that he extols as a philosophy in real life, but I can still enjoy it as fantasy.

Quote from: jhkim on May 29, 2024, 01:05:18 PM

Quote from: blackstone on May 29, 2024, 11:26:54 AMTaking REH and HPL out of the context of the time they live and wrote does a disservice to them. Yes, they may have been racist viewed from a "modern" standpoint, but it doesn't matter. Their view on race for the time period was considered normal. It doesn't make it right or wrong. It's a product of it's time. So, those of you saying REH and HPL racists are taking them out of historical context, no matter how truthful and uncomfortable that makes you feel.

It's about facts, not feelings.

It's not postmodernist to think words like "racism" should have a consistent and objective meaning. Yes, racism was common in REH's time -- but even at the time, there were people who used the term "racism" and opposed it. When "The Birth of a Nation" (1915) was released, there were huge protests over its racism - and it was banned in several major cities including Chicago and St. Louis.

It's moral relativism to say that the same terms don't apply to people from a different society.

Just because someone comes from a communist society, that doesn't mean that they're not communist. They're still a communist - it's just that their reasons for being communist should be considered to fully understand them. The same applies for racism.

If I read a story and don't know who the author is or when it was written, I can still describe it objectively and factually using words, including "racism".

---

Quote from: Eirikrautha on May 29, 2024, 07:22:16 AMFirst, point out where in my quote I said "some stories could be racist - but this couldn't apply to Howard."  This is a blatant misrepresentation, and you know it.  Nowhere in that did I say Howard couldn't be racist.  In fact, right below the passage you quoted, I said,

QuoteWere there passages in REH works that would be considered racist today?  Yes.

So you know your statement is a lie.  Of course Howard's work could be racist.  Especially depending on whose sensibilities you use.

Because of the passive voice, I read your quote as saying "Other people today would consider REH to be racist" - with the implication that they were wrong. I didn't think it defined your opinion.

But I don't want to put words in your mouth, so I'd ask for clarification. Do you think that any of Howard's work is racist? As in, you would consider them racist by your understanding of the true meaning of the word?

You do you jhkim....you do you...

Quote from: Krazz on May 29, 2024, 12:12:07 PM

Quote from: jhkim on May 29, 2024, 02:21:12 AMYou say it's obvious that "The Last White Man" is racist. I agree, as have Venka and KindaMeh. (Apologies to KindaMeh for not catching all of it.) On the other hand, krazz, jeff37923, Omega, and SHARK have all argued that it isn't racist.

I've done nothing of the sort. I've not even read the story, so I wouldn't argue one way or the other, and I've not discussed it prior to this post.

Quote from: Krazz on May 29, 2024, 12:12:07 PMThe claim was that there was overt racism in Howard's works, particularly his Conan stories. I still maintain that nobody has provided evidence of overt racism in any of Howard's works, and in particular his Conan stories, which were what was under discussion.

OK, I'm confused by this. It sounds like you're saying that I haven't provided evidence of racism in any of Howard's works, when I thought I had -- which is why I included you with others who have been explicitly arguing that "The Last White Man" isn't racist.

Could you read "The Last White Man"? It's much shorter in word count than either the Rascal article or this thread, and it's by R.E. Howard so it should be interesting if you like his writing. Here's the link again:

https://archive.org/details/howard-collector-05-1964-summer/page/22/mode/2up


I can understand a position of "_The Last White Man_ is racist, but none of Howard's Conan stories are racist." But if you make a claim that there's no evidence of racism, but then refuse to read cited evidence of racism, that feels like intentional ignorance.

EDIT: corrected misspelling

Quote from: jhkim on May 29, 2024, 02:37:54 PMOK, I'm confused by this. It sounds like you're saying that I haven't provided evidence of racism in any of Howard's works, when I thought I had -- which is why I included you with others who have been explicitly arguing that "The Last White Man" isn't racist.

I said what I did before The Last White Man was mentioned. So, no, I didn't argue that that story didn't contain overt racism. I said that, although I'd heard claims of overt racism in Howard's works (and I was talking about the Conan ones specifically), I'd never seen those claims backed up. Disclaimer: many of Howard's works are copyrighted and hard-to-find, so I've not read them all. Even some of the copyrighted Conan stories I haven't read in decades, so they might contain overt racism that I don't recall. My point was that I wasn't taking such claims seriously without evidence.

Quote from: jhkim on May 29, 2024, 02:37:54 PMCould you read "The Last White Man"? It's much shorter in word count than either the Rascal article or this thread, and it's by R.E. Howard so it should be interesting if you like his writing. Here's the link again:

I can understand a position of "_The Last White Man_ is racist, but none of Howard's Conan stories are racism." But if you make a claim that there's no evidence of racism, but then refuse to read cited evidence of racism, that feels like intentional ignorance.

I made the claim that nobody had ever provided me with evidence of overt racism in the stories, not that it didn't exist. The discussion was about the Conan stories and other influences on D&D, and this is derailing the thread. But fine, I've now read TLWM. Not Howard's best work, but the Conan canon tends to far outshine everything else he wrote, in my opinion. The story is about racism. That doesn't make the story racist. And rereading the original Daniel Justice quote I disagreed with, it's not clear whether it refers to in-world racism, or that the stories themselves are racist.

So fine, let me give an updated response to:

Quote(The other great influence on D&D's world-building, Robert E. Howard, especially his Conan works, held no appeal for me whatsoever, as there was no beauty, no grace, no romance—just blood, brutality, butchery, and overt racism.)

The stories by Howard that influenced D&D, especially his Conan works, have oodles of explicit beauty and romance, as well as some grace. They also contain blood, brutality and butchery, which to many adds to their charm. I've not seen any evidence of any of Howard's stories being overtly racist, though some contain in-world racism.

There. Do you disagree with any of that?

I sometimes think we need like a 20 year moratorium on the word "racism", until we can all chill out and agree on what it actually means.

Anybody who reads much REH is likely to come away with the impression that the concept of race loomed pretty large in his thought (as it did of many authors of his time), and he had a particularly high opinion of the Celtic and Anglo-Saxon races. I think it's completely fair to say that "The Last White Man" expresses a degree of animosity and/or fear to what Howard would have thought of as "the African Race", but from what I can find, the version we have is an unfinished manuscript, and we don't know what Howard submitted to Weird Tales as a finished product. It's also interesting that the story appears to have been written in or around 1925, very early in Howard's career. That would mean it was followed shortly thereafter with the Solomon Kane stories (published 1928-32, with the first probably being written in 1927), which are probably the Howard stories in which Africans are most positively portrayed.

As far as the Conan stories go, I'd be reluctant to ascribe racial animosity to anything in them, simply because Howard pretty universally stereotypes and/or caricatures real world cultures to come up with their Hyborian analogues, and he can be surprisingly even-handed. Just as the Africans who get a pretty rough characterization in "Shadows in Zamboula" get a much more sympathetic one in something like "Wings in the Night" or "The Footfalls Within", Howard's own beloved Picts get remade from the Kull stories, in which they are noble savages par excellence, to the Conan ones, where they are made out savages of the least noble kind, and then get kind of rehabilitated via the Bran Mak Morn stories.

All of that is a long way round to go to say that I'm not enough of a Howard scholar to pronounce judgment on his racial views. What I will say is this: Howard is usually discussed in the same breath as HP Lovecraft. The stance I've long taken on Lovecraft is that whatever his suspect attitudes on topics like race might have been, he deserves some extra leeway because he was a spectacularly neurotic person, and we probably owe that neuroticism in no small degree for the extraordinary imagination that gave us his best work. I generally get a lot of agreement on that point. Howard hasn't been anywhere near as thoroughly psychoanalyzed in the years since his death, but given that he committed suicide at age 30, he probably deserves some of the same charity.

At any rate, there's something pretty distasteful about spitting on a man's grave while profiting hugely from his life's work. Any one who appreciates fantasy, horror, historical fiction, or sword-and-sorcery should probably be prepared to cut REH an immense amount of slack on whatever his personal failings might have been, out of regard for his contributions to the culture.