I will disagree with you about Lamentations of the Flame Princess. The game is solid, the production top notch, and I happen to really like the art.

As for hidden gems, check out Helvéczia. It's pretty much a work of art and I can't wait to play it some time.

Quote from: cimmer12 on April 03, 2023, 03:32:12 PM
I prefer Lamentation of the Flame Princess

I have looked at the free artless versions of Lamentations and it looks ok.  I just can't support it because I do not like James Raggi and I do not support people I do not like.

OSE works for me so thats great.  Doesn't work for you? That's cool.  Use what works for you.

Quote from: cimmer12 on April 03, 2023, 12:14:27 PM

To the OP. Why you Production Value/Content?

Short answer: The Menzter "Red Box" Basic Set with the Elmore art drew me into the game like many other Gen X gamers at the time. I have always appreciated good art work in the RPG's that I purchase. I like not only getting a feel for the mechanics, but immersion is also essential. Good art (where an apparent effort has been made), combined with at least salvageable mechanics will peak my interest in purchasing and eventually getting a game on the table. This is most important personally in fantasy and sci-fi titles. Combine this with the fact that out of the numerous games I have seen over the years, the ones with the lowest effort or no art have tended to be on the poor side. The explosion of OSR titles over the last few years has certainly not made this situation any better.

While I began gaming with the Red Box back in '83, I am also a historical miniature and board wargamer. When I simply want good mechanics I have that hobby, where mechanics take precedence over production values (unless you are prone to gaming one of the few mass produced lines like Flames of War or Bolt Action). Fantasy for me, OTOH is an escape valve, I enjoy being drawn into a writer and artists vision of the world they wish to present. Same with SF, though I personally prefer a "hard" SF approach like 2300 over sci-fantasy. Though recently "retro-futurism" has become a favorite genre with the release of the Alien and Blade Runner RPGs (where the future vision of the game is firmly rooted in the imagination of the 1970's/80's).

I have many fantasy titles purchased on the shelves because the art and concept drew me in. Symbaroum, Trudvang Chronicles, Lex Occultum, Shadows of Esteren, Lex Arcana, Brancalonia, Kult 4th Edition, the upcoming Inferno setting based on Dante's Divine Comedy....never would have picked these up without that immersion bonus. Likelihood of my ever running them with a group is admittedly minimal, and that's fine, since a decent OSR game would likely be preferable to most, but I do not mind collecting all of these titles if only for a good read.

So yes, art and presentation are essential aspects for me personally. Others don't mind a more spartan approach, and I have no issue with that (since most Gen X and Boomer grognards I know fall into this category). Fantasy has always been my go-to escapist genre, and that has carried over into adulthood, so I simply enjoy the immersion aspect more than finding the "perfect" mechanics. I can always bolt the latter to the former....

Quote from: rytrasmi on April 03, 2023, 03:54:38 PM
I will disagree with you about Lamentations of the Flame Princess. The game is solid, the production top notch, and I happen to really like the art.

As for hidden gems, check out Helvéczia. It's pretty much a work of art and I can't wait to play it some time.

Have several of the PDFs and the box set, will give them another read through tonight. Am trying to see what others do when it comes to this title, I just know my first impression was "meh" overall. It may simply be the presentation and world presented are not personally appealing (though I love Lovecraft and CoC, "weird fantasy" has simply never been a genre I enjoyed outside of the occasional Conan/Hyperboria themed game). Also unlike others, I find the art is simply unappealing. May simply be a stylistic preference. YMMV.

Quote from: cimmer12 on April 03, 2023, 03:38:44 PM

Quote from: migo on April 03, 2023, 02:12:42 PM
Then there are systems that aren't inspired by D&D directly, like ZeFRS, which is a faithful clone of a distinctly different system that is hard to get your hands on.

Honestly I have the bunch of games in my waitlist. ZeFRS with Legend of Steel is one of them, but I know nothing about it. If I'm not wrong is a clone of another game from TRS. Why is hard? It's complex? haha

It's based on TSR's Conan. I mean it's difficult to acquire because there aren't many copies of the original for sale. This is in contrast with older versions of D&D that most of us already have in our libraries anyway. So even though it's a faithful clone, it offers something to those of us who can't get the originals.

Quote from: Valhuen on April 03, 2023, 04:50:01 PM
Combine this with the fact that out of the numerous games I have seen over the years, the ones with the lowest effort or no art have tended to be on the poor side. The explosion of OSR titles over the last few years has certainly not made this situation any better.

The game that came to my mind reading this, Mork Borg, it seems people play it just for the art and design, which I found shitty. I read some reviews mentioning that the rules are shitty too. Either way I'll take a look in the future.

Hey Valhuen I started with the Red Box too (Basic D&D 3E) haha but in 2021-22 true. I was trying to learn how to play RPG, specific old school D&D and none of the games people recommended really teach me or were too modern for what I was looking. Someone said, why you don't learn like we all learned during 70 and 80 with no internet, just read the damn book, interpret, takes note and play. I did it.

Mentzer explanation was wonderful, next was James Raggi with Lamentation of the Flame Princess tutorial, and some of his modules/adventures, next game was Basic D&D 1E Holmes and my first DM game

Valhuen after reading your last two replies, it seems you're not into the game as a game to having fun playing it, but the art, design, and concept. You may try to look out of the OSR sphere as well.

Take a look

- https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/298580/Rangers-of-Shadow-Deep-Deluxe-Edition
- https://www.exaltedfuneral.com/products/disciples-of-bone-shadow-conquered-sun-edition-pdf

Quote from: Valhuen on April 03, 2023, 04:50:01 PM

Quote from: cimmer12 on April 03, 2023, 12:14:27 PM
To the OP. Why you Production Value/Content?

Short answer: The Menzter "Red Box" Basic Set with the Elmore art drew me into the game like many other Gen X gamers at the time. I have always appreciated good art work in the RPG's that I purchase. I like not only getting a feel for the mechanics, but immersion is also essential. Good art (where an apparent effort has been made), combined with at least salvageable mechanics will peak my interest in purchasing and eventually getting a game on the table. This is most important personally in fantasy and sci-fi titles. Combine this with the fact that out of the numerous games I have seen over the years, the ones with the lowest effort or no art have tended to be on the poor side. The explosion of OSR titles over the last few years has certainly not made this situation any better.

It's funny because in line with this topic, today I was trying to think about which of the books on my RPG shelf has all-over the best art in it, and the Red Box Player's Guide is probably top three.

Quote from: Valhuen on April 03, 2023, 04:50:01 PM
I have many fantasy titles purchased on the shelves because the art and concept drew me in. Symbaroum, Trudvang Chronicles, Lex Occultum, Shadows of Esteren, Lex Arcana, Brancalonia, Kult 4th Edition, the upcoming Inferno setting based on Dante's Divine Comedy....never would have picked these up without that immersion bonus. Likelihood of my ever running them with a group is admittedly minimal, and that's fine, since a decent OSR game would likely be preferable to most, but I do not mind collecting all of these titles if only for a good read.

Trudvang Chronicles has some absolutely amazing art in it. I don't own that book in hard copy, or else it'd probably be the best I own. Outside of the Larry Elmore Basic Edition, the best book I do own for pure presentation is probably Black Void, which is a Modiphius product. Not a great game, but it's a really nice book. A lot of Free League's books are extremely high quality too. 

Generally, you're not going to get that kind of production value in the OSR, partially for budget reasons, and partially because slightly janky black-&-white art is part of the OSR aesthetic.

Quote from: Valhuen on April 03, 2023, 05:19:11 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on April 03, 2023, 03:54:38 PM
I will disagree with you about Lamentations of the Flame Princess. The game is solid, the production top notch, and I happen to really like the art.

As for hidden gems, check out Helvéczia. It's pretty much a work of art and I can't wait to play it some time.

Have several of the PDFs and the box set, will give them another read through tonight. Am trying to see what others do when it comes to this title, I just know my first impression was "meh" overall. It may simply be the presentation and world presented are not personally appealing (though I love Lovecraft and CoC, "weird fantasy" has simply never been a genre I enjoyed outside of the occasional Conan/Hyperboria themed game). Also unlike others, I find the art is simply unappealing. May simply be a stylistic preference. YMMV.

The Lamentations aesthetic is going to be a love-it-or-hate-it for most people. To me it rides the line between legitimately interesting and tryhard cringe, sometimes falling on one side or the other. I'll happily argue though that the average art quality in Lamentations product is above the rest of the OSR, at least the games I'm aware of. The paper quality, formatting, etc. is also well above average in all the Lamentations products I've owned hard copies of, too.

Mechanically, I'm not going to argue that Lamentations is amazing. The encumbrance system is really good, and the skill system is better than what you get in most OD&D/Basic derivatives. But for the most part, it's just a very neat, well-organized version of the same game you can get in a large number of other OSR games.

What are people's feelings on Swords and Wizardry?  I have it and I am curious to hear people's thoughts on this.

LotFP has probably the best rules in the bunch (especially because thief and cleric, and equipment) and great looks, too, IMO (but I still prefer DCC here).

If I didn't have my own OSR game (which I didn't mention because the production value is comparatively low), that is what I'd be playing.

But the adventures are hit-and-miss. Some are really great, others not so much.

Quote from: GhostNinja on April 04, 2023, 09:42:43 AM
What are people's feelings on Swords and Wizardry?  I have it and I am curious to hear people's thoughts on this.

I like it a lot, mostly for the Unified Save, and the many derivatives. My current fav is White Box: Fantastic Medieval Adventure Game, and White Star for SF.

Quote from: S'mon on April 04, 2023, 12:11:58 PM
I like it a lot, mostly for the Unified Save, and the many derivatives. My current fav is White Box: Fantastic Medieval Adventure Game, and White Star for SF.

It looks good.  I am planning to give it a read through and if it works maybe use it as well.

Quote from: GhostNinja on April 04, 2023, 09:42:43 AM
What are people's feelings on Swords and Wizardry?  I have it and I am curious to hear people's thoughts on this.

It's become my current favorite OSR game.  It has enough options regarding class and race and plays like a simpler version of AD&D, which it pretty much is.  The rulebook is sleek and well-written.  They're currently running a Kickstarter for a new edition with a few tweaks. See: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/adventuredesigntome/swords-and-wizardry-complete-revised-rulebook

The single save mechanic is fantastic.  Plus, there are several really good monster books, filled with a range of interesting creatures, some new, some from older editions of D&D.  Monster stat blocks are even shorter than in B/X.  They also have a large number of available published adventures for all character levels, including high level play.  Personal favorites include the megadungeon Rappan Athuk, the reboot of Tegel Manor, and the campaign adventure City of Brass.

Their rulebook used to be free as a pdf; not sure if that still applies under Mythmere.  I do know they've got a free preview of the new book on the KS page.

Yeah, S&W is great. Lots of options, monsters, single save, and a great SRD.

Quote from: GhostNinja on April 04, 2023, 09:42:43 AM
What are people's feelings on Swords and Wizardry?  I have it and I am curious to hear people's thoughts on this.

I suspect you are more of a beginner than me I'll try to quickly explain

- Old School Essential (OSE) is a clone for a specific D&D edition, for this game is: Basic D&D 2E (1981) also known as B/X (Basic and Expert) which you can get easily the original book. Already exist clones for B/X and B/X with novel features (Lamentation of the Flame Pricess) or you can get a good DM screen and replace OSE.
- Swords and Wizardry (S&W) is another clone for a specific D&D edition, for this game is: D&D (1974) or Original D&D or D&D 0E (Zero Edition) which you can get easily the original book. But in this case to understand the game is difficult if you already don't have experience or someone explains to you. For 0E is more than welcome to have a clone with an easy-to-understand writing.

1) In the OSR movement/community you'll found clone or retroclone or also known as "simulacrum". What you need to understand here is the definition of clone: To produce a copy of; imitate closely.

2) Other kind of OSR games, these games are not clone, these games are descended from and similar to the progenitor... D&D you guessed it, sharing the same game mechanics as D&D from TSR era. From Original D&D (1974), all the Basic D&D editions 1E (Holmes), 2E (B/X), 3E (BECMI) and 4E (Black Box and Rules Cyclopedia (1991)) and the two Advanced D&D editions (1E & 2E (1989)). Some game mechanics (but not all) are different, completely new (not D&D related) or some copy from other games. This is where you see innovation and novel features at the same time being compatible between TSR D&D games.

3) Other generation of OSR Games that innovate taking a different path, "what if.... D&D keeps the wargaming style of play", "what if... D&D keeps using Swords and Sorcery with a better experience instead of High Fantasy", "what if... D&D has a better dungeon crawler gameplay". Here is where you see more innovation and novel features, and you need a little of work in your behalf if you want to make it compatible with other OSR games, but should be possible.

There are other games that are not OSR but game developers trying to make money labeling their game as OSR to get on the "OSR Wagon", labels like "Modernized Old school" or whatever. I'm not saying this are bad games, but are not OSR and one of the advantage is the compatibility with the thousand of games/adventures out there, as you guess it these games are not D&D descendant.

Back to your original question:

Quote from: GhostNinja on April 04, 2023, 09:42:43 AM
What are people's feelings on Swords and Wizardry?  I have it and I am curious to hear people's thoughts on this.

The game is as good as the original D&D (D&D 0E) because it's a clone, uses the same rules, and is good as the explanation from authors of rules. I'll repeat "imitate closely" some clones are 90% from the original, and this is not a bad thing, it may fill a gab or something, or simplify a complex rule.

Yes S&W is great!

Quote from: Cathal on April 03, 2023, 07:47:24 PM

Quote from: Valhuen on April 03, 2023, 04:50:01 PM
Combine this with the fact that out of the numerous games I have seen over the years, the ones with the lowest effort or no art have tended to be on the poor side. The explosion of OSR titles over the last few years has certainly not made this situation any better.

The game that came to my mind reading this, Mork Borg, it seems people play it just for the art and design, which I found shitty. I read some reviews mentioning that the rules are shitty too. Either way I'll take a look in the future.

Hey Valhuen I started with the Red Box too (Basic D&D 3E) haha but in 2021-22 true. I was trying to learn how to play RPG, specific old school D&D and none of the games people recommended really teach me or were too modern for what I was looking. Someone said, why you don't learn like we all learned during 70 and 80 with no internet, just read the damn book, interpret, takes note and play. I did it.

Mentzer explanation was wonderful, next was James Raggi with Lamentation of the Flame Princess tutorial, and some of his modules/adventures, next game was Basic D&D 1E Holmes and my first DM game

Valhuen after reading your last two replies, it seems you're not into the game as a game to having fun playing it, but the art, design, and concept. You may try to look out of the OSR sphere as well.

My apologies if I have given the wrong impression, been in a bit of a fog the last week or so.

I fully understand the aesthetics of the OSR movement, and as per my original post I do find many OSR titles fit the bill with both great art and layout along with stellar rules presentation. The examples of other RPG's I gave outside the OSR sphere were to illustrate those games I find at the "top of the heap" with regards to art and presentation styles. However there are several OSR titles that fill the niche with regards to both art effort and "fun" quotient, such as Hyperboria, ACKS, OSE, etc. There are unfortunately many more that come across as much more amateurish efforts being shilled as premium games. Was merely looking for some more options with regards to the former so as to avoid the latter.