TheRPGSite

Greetings; first post but long-time lurker.

Has anyone made an exhaustive list of OSR titles ranked by various factors? Honestly art and production are important to me personally to get into a rules set, but content must also be worthwhile.

Some examples of titles I consider excellent in both areas:

ACKS
Adventures in the East Mark (unfortunate there seems to be no move on English translations for remaining sets)
Castles & Crusades
Hackmaster
Beneath the Sunken Catacombs
Against the Darkmaster (D100/MERP clone, so technically not OSR)
Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperboria
Swords & Wizardry
Most of the OSR Pundit games
OSE

Lots of games I consider "middling", mainly from poor art and layout but contain decent content such as Adventures Dark & Deep, LotFP, Laybrinth Lord, Beyond the Wall. Some like Basic Fantasy I find middling in both categories.

At any rate any recommendations for hidden gems that hit the high points such as the aforementioned rules? Have tons of OSR digitally, but like to own the physical copies of rules and settings worth purchasing.

Thanks!

Of S&W derivatives, White Star is top notch.
Crypts & Things 1e is middling presentation, some decent ideas. I think Operation: Whitebox goes there too or a bit higher. Warriors of the Red Planet is pretty nice.

Quote from: S'mon on March 31, 2023, 06:54:11 PM
Of S&W derivatives, White Star is top notch.
Crypts & Things 1e is middling presentation, some decent ideas. I think Operation: Whitebox goes there too or a bit higher. Warriors of the Red Planet is pretty nice.

Odd....friend was over last night and was looking for a good Barsoom themed game, remembered had a digital copy of WotRP, he liked it so ordered a physical via DTRPG. Plan on using it for a miniature based campaign. Great rules set all around.

Will take a look at the other recommended sets, my thanks!

Greetings!

Welcome, Valhuen!

As far as OSR games go--I think while specific rules, mechanics, and art all contribute--OSR gaming is much more a style of play, a kind of "Mind set". As many know, I have run 5E campaigns that are very much OSR.

I ignore the worthless WOTC art.

I have stripped out the various stupid rules in the rulebooks that I don't like.

I have heavily restricted spells, as well as the super-power characters of the month flavours. Lots of classes, powers, races--the answer is NO.

Resource management is critically important.

Death, brutality, and terrible racism, hatred, suffering, and violence are common and ever-present throughout the campaign.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on March 31, 2023, 07:21:05 PM

As far as OSR games go--I think while specific rules, mechanics, and art all contribute--OSR gaming is much more a style of play, a kind of "Mind set". As many know, I have run 5E campaigns that are very much OSR.

Totally agree.
A lot of folks seem to equate the OSR with a nostalgia for primitive and frankly not very good game design.
Game design has come a long way over the last 50 years.

For modern design with an OSR feel and good production values, I've liked both ICRPG and Forbidden Lands.
Eager to get a look at the full version of Shadowdark.

Quote from: Festus on April 01, 2023, 02:22:11 AM

Quote from: SHARK on March 31, 2023, 07:21:05 PM

As far as OSR games go--I think while specific rules, mechanics, and art all contribute--OSR gaming is much more a style of play, a kind of "Mind set". As many know, I have run 5E campaigns that are very much OSR.

Totally agree.
A lot of folks seem to equate the OSR with a nostalgia for primitive and frankly not very good game design.
Game design has come a long way over the last 50 years.































For modern design with an OSR feel and good production values, I've liked both ICRPG and Forbidden Lands.
Eager to get a look at the full version of Shadowdark.

Pretty much a subjective question, though.  A lot of people think game design has "advanced" in the last 50 years, but that's a subjective assertion, just like anything else.  You might think CGI has advanced, but are modern movies "better?"  Not necessarily.  Is music better than in 1973?  Probably not, even if technology is better.  Is 5e D&D better than 1e?  Of course not.  And you could argue that the design is worse in many ways because it's dumbed down, like the whole game.  But in the end, it's all subjective.  So I think it's best to think of features you like, and ask about games with those, which you essentially did.  But keep in mind that we'll all have our preferences.

I love the retro/nostalgia look of both DCC and Fantastic Heroes & Witchery.

LFG deluxe has good content and looks good.

Although TBH, the (often boring) 5e art is better in quality than most OSR games.

For me, I guess its really hard to judge.

I read a bunch of different ORS systems before I landed on the one I am going to use.

Does that mean the other ones were bad? No.  They simply didn't do what I was looking for.

I guess for me, you just have to read a bunch of OSR products and find the one that works best for you.

Hi! first post but long-time lurker too =)

Quote from: SHARK on March 31, 2023, 07:21:05 PM
Greetings!

Welcome, Valhuen!

As far as OSR games go--I think while specific rules, mechanics, and art all contribute--OSR gaming is much more a style of play, a kind of "Mind set". As many know, I have run 5E campaigns that are very much OSR.

I ignore the worthless WOTC art.

I have stripped out the various stupid rules in the rulebooks that I don't like.

I have heavily restricted spells, as well as the super-power characters of the month flavours. Lots of classes, powers, races--the answer is NO.

Resource management is critically important.

Death, brutality, and terrible racism, hatred, suffering, and violence are common and ever-present throughout the campaign.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Not quite correct, is more than just the gameplay, is the game mechanics. OSR was born mainly because the firsts D&D (D&D 0E, Basic D&D, through AD&D 1E, 2E?) games it could not be found, it was no longer printed, and because the recent version was something different in gameplay and rules. OSR games bring not just the original gameplay and adventures (Sword and Sorcery), but the game mechanics are mostly compatible between these games taking the advantage that people can play adventures from AD&D or Basic D&D. Each time that passes, each person gives it another OSR definition, and it changes again or try to create a new term.

I'm very new to RPG never playing one in my life until recently by myself, solo and a few times with 1 player and me (DM). I started reading D&D 0E and other version like Basic D&D 1E through 3E, (Holmes, BX, 'BE'CMI) because I wanted. It is not nostalgia, I hadn't even been born. More recent I read and play OSR games.

I can't compare it to the newer version or say it's clunky, or say "it's an old mechanic", it's all new to me, and I enjoy it equally.

To the OP. Why you Production Value/Content? I don't have a ranked list like this lol, and it is not fair to compare it with a game made by a big company like H4shbr0. These are games that I enjoy at this moment, for me, it has value and I already spend money on some of them. Because I'm new, I tried to read lots of rpg games and I notice something... lots of games are house rules of other game with new arts or different layout.

Anyway, I tend to prefer games with less fluff and less art, art should not distract me when I'm reading.

- Lamentation of the Flame Princess
- Laybrinth Lord
- Swords & Wizardry
- OD&D Single Volumen
- The Gray Book
- Mazes & Perils
- Holmes 77
- Delving Deeper
- Big Brown Book

I played other games too:
- Tunnels & Trolls
- Swords and Six-Siders
- Ancient Odysseys: Treasure Awaits
- NoteQuest

Why so many games? Because I can borrow from them. I have other games is my list to read and play.

My waitlist
- Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperboria
- Barbarians of Lemuria
- ACKS
- Seven Voyages of Zylarthen
- DCC
- Crypts and Things

Quote from: cimmer12 on April 03, 2023, 12:14:27 PM
My waitlist
- Barbarians of Lemuria

Barbarians of Lemuria is pretty cool.  Another one is Old School Essentials, currently my go to OSR product

The main thing for me is the rules changes. I'm not interested in an exact or faithful clone, as I can just as well stick to AD&D 2e that I'm familiar with it, and make houserules until it suits my personal taste.

So stuff that is actually valuable are some of the changes in Lamentations of the Flame Princess (Thief - the garbage class - is replaced with Expert, which actually is functional; only fighter gets an attack bonus and only Fighter increases in attack bonus; encumbrance is streamlined so it gets actually used). Overall Keven Crawford's setting specific games (Wolves of God, Silent Legions, Spears of the Dawn) are well integrated and come across like unusually well designed '90s era RPGs. Castles & Crusades has a familiar feel but is also mechanically sufficiently different to actually justify using a different system.

Then there are systems that aren't inspired by D&D directly, like ZeFRS, which is a faithful clone of a distinctly different system that is hard to get your hands on.

This might be a hot take, but I think I would actually pick Lamentations of the Flame Princess as having the best art and overall presentation of the OSR. The Rules & Magic book is a thing of beauty, and quite a few of their adventure books have extremely high production values as well.

For "value-for money" purposes, it's kind of hard to argue with Basic Fantasy RPG, just because the books are so incredibly cheap. Setting that aside, though, I would call attention to Fantastic Heroes and Witchery, which for $30 ish gets you an absolutely massive tome with dozens of race and class options, over 600 spells, and a complete game ruleset. The art quality is adequate (though the layout is quite good), and it gets marked down a little for lacking a bestiary, but I still don't think there's a single book in the OSR that gives more value.

For "best overall package" I would probably vote for Hyperborea, at least if you can buy the players' and referees' books together. Nice hardcover books, with a decent average level of art and presentation, that include a solid AD&D style game, with an interesting setting, maps, bestiary, spellbook. Everything you need, really. Points against them would be that the books run a little pricey, the 3rd edition added in some subpar art, and there are very few published adventures.

In the OSR-adjacent sphere: I would probably call attention to Shadow of the Demon Lord. For a reasonably priced core rulebook, you get a complete game with an innovative class mechanic, tons of player options, GM rules, and a modest but respectable bestiary. The art isn't to my personal taste, but the production value is high.

I also really like the minimalist presentation you see in things like Index Card RPG or the various derivatives of the Black Hack. It's not for everyone, but plain block text with black-and-white ink illustrations works for me. Honestly ICRPG might be the best value-for-money book on my shelf. For I think around $14 print on demand, you get the game rules, races, classes, and gazetteers for multiple settings, a small bestiary, and one of the best GM advice sections in any RPG book.

Quote from: ForgottenF on April 03, 2023, 02:33:20 PM
This might be a hot take, but I think I would actually pick Lamentations of the Flame Princess as having the best art and overall presentation of the OSR. The Rules & Magic book is a thing of beauty, and quite a few of their adventure books have extremely high production values as well.

Agreed, and the quality of the physical book is pretty good. Very good adventures overall, I played Broodmother Skyfortress, Tower of the Stargazer and Better than Any Man.

Quote from: GhostNinja on April 03, 2023, 12:18:08 PM
Barbarians of Lemuria is pretty cool.  Another one is Old School Essentials, currently my go to OSR product

I tried, but I don't like OSE, from my newbie point of view, I found it unnecessary, it offers something new beside the layout?.

We can easily find Basic D&D now days and read it, which is not the same to read D&D 0E haha. For BX, I prefer Lamentation of the Flame Princess or Labyrinth Lord. I read the new edition of LL will be great.

Quote from: migo on April 03, 2023, 02:12:42 PM
Then there are systems that aren't inspired by D&D directly, like ZeFRS, which is a faithful clone of a distinctly different system that is hard to get your hands on.

Honestly I have the bunch of games in my waitlist. ZeFRS with Legend of Steel is one of them, but I know nothing about it. If I'm not wrong is a clone of another game from TRS. Why is hard? It's complex? haha

Quote from: Valhuen on March 31, 2023, 06:47:36 PM
Greetings; first post but long-time lurker.

Has anyone made an exhaustive list of OSR titles ranked by various factors? Honestly art and production are important to me personally to get into a rules set, but content must also be worthwhile.

Some examples of titles I consider excellent in both areas:

ACKS
Adventures in the East Mark (unfortunate there seems to be no move on English translations for remaining sets)
Castles & Crusades
Hackmaster
Beneath the Sunken Catacombs
Against the Darkmaster (D100/MERP clone, so technically not OSR)
Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperboria
Swords & Wizardry
Most of the OSR Pundit games
OSE

Lots of games I consider "middling", mainly from poor art and layout but contain decent content such as Adventures Dark & Deep, LotFP, Laybrinth Lord, Beyond the Wall. Some like Basic Fantasy I find middling in both categories.

At any rate any recommendations for hidden gems that hit the high points such as the aforementioned rules? Have tons of OSR digitally, but like to own the physical copies of rules and settings worth purchasing.

Thanks!

Based off that criteria, my list would be, in no particular order:

- LotFP (exception to the no particular order, this is #1)
- OSE
- DCC RPG
- ASSH
- C&C

However, I do not play a lot of OSR games, because I have the originals, but have run all the above with the exception of ASSH.

I will disagree with you about Lamentations of the Flame Princess. The game is solid, the production top notch, and I happen to really like the art.

As for hidden gems, check out Helvéczia. It's pretty much a work of art and I can't wait to play it some time.

Quote from: cimmer12 on April 03, 2023, 03:32:12 PM
I prefer Lamentation of the Flame Princess

I have looked at the free artless versions of Lamentations and it looks ok.  I just can't support it because I do not like James Raggi and I do not support people I do not like.

OSE works for me so thats great.  Doesn't work for you? That's cool.  Use what works for you.

Quote from: cimmer12 on April 03, 2023, 12:14:27 PM

To the OP. Why you Production Value/Content?

Short answer: The Menzter "Red Box" Basic Set with the Elmore art drew me into the game like many other Gen X gamers at the time. I have always appreciated good art work in the RPG's that I purchase. I like not only getting a feel for the mechanics, but immersion is also essential. Good art (where an apparent effort has been made), combined with at least salvageable mechanics will peak my interest in purchasing and eventually getting a game on the table. This is most important personally in fantasy and sci-fi titles. Combine this with the fact that out of the numerous games I have seen over the years, the ones with the lowest effort or no art have tended to be on the poor side. The explosion of OSR titles over the last few years has certainly not made this situation any better.

While I began gaming with the Red Box back in '83, I am also a historical miniature and board wargamer. When I simply want good mechanics I have that hobby, where mechanics take precedence over production values (unless you are prone to gaming one of the few mass produced lines like Flames of War or Bolt Action). Fantasy for me, OTOH is an escape valve, I enjoy being drawn into a writer and artists vision of the world they wish to present. Same with SF, though I personally prefer a "hard" SF approach like 2300 over sci-fantasy. Though recently "retro-futurism" has become a favorite genre with the release of the Alien and Blade Runner RPGs (where the future vision of the game is firmly rooted in the imagination of the 1970's/80's).

I have many fantasy titles purchased on the shelves because the art and concept drew me in. Symbaroum, Trudvang Chronicles, Lex Occultum, Shadows of Esteren, Lex Arcana, Brancalonia, Kult 4th Edition, the upcoming Inferno setting based on Dante's Divine Comedy....never would have picked these up without that immersion bonus. Likelihood of my ever running them with a group is admittedly minimal, and that's fine, since a decent OSR game would likely be preferable to most, but I do not mind collecting all of these titles if only for a good read.

So yes, art and presentation are essential aspects for me personally. Others don't mind a more spartan approach, and I have no issue with that (since most Gen X and Boomer grognards I know fall into this category). Fantasy has always been my go-to escapist genre, and that has carried over into adulthood, so I simply enjoy the immersion aspect more than finding the "perfect" mechanics. I can always bolt the latter to the former....

Quote from: rytrasmi on April 03, 2023, 03:54:38 PM
I will disagree with you about Lamentations of the Flame Princess. The game is solid, the production top notch, and I happen to really like the art.

As for hidden gems, check out Helvéczia. It's pretty much a work of art and I can't wait to play it some time.

Have several of the PDFs and the box set, will give them another read through tonight. Am trying to see what others do when it comes to this title, I just know my first impression was "meh" overall. It may simply be the presentation and world presented are not personally appealing (though I love Lovecraft and CoC, "weird fantasy" has simply never been a genre I enjoyed outside of the occasional Conan/Hyperboria themed game). Also unlike others, I find the art is simply unappealing. May simply be a stylistic preference. YMMV.

Quote from: cimmer12 on April 03, 2023, 03:38:44 PM

Quote from: migo on April 03, 2023, 02:12:42 PM
Then there are systems that aren't inspired by D&D directly, like ZeFRS, which is a faithful clone of a distinctly different system that is hard to get your hands on.

Honestly I have the bunch of games in my waitlist. ZeFRS with Legend of Steel is one of them, but I know nothing about it. If I'm not wrong is a clone of another game from TRS. Why is hard? It's complex? haha

It's based on TSR's Conan. I mean it's difficult to acquire because there aren't many copies of the original for sale. This is in contrast with older versions of D&D that most of us already have in our libraries anyway. So even though it's a faithful clone, it offers something to those of us who can't get the originals.

Quote from: Valhuen on April 03, 2023, 04:50:01 PM
Combine this with the fact that out of the numerous games I have seen over the years, the ones with the lowest effort or no art have tended to be on the poor side. The explosion of OSR titles over the last few years has certainly not made this situation any better.

The game that came to my mind reading this, Mork Borg, it seems people play it just for the art and design, which I found shitty. I read some reviews mentioning that the rules are shitty too. Either way I'll take a look in the future.

Hey Valhuen I started with the Red Box too (Basic D&D 3E) haha but in 2021-22 :D true. I was trying to learn how to play RPG, specific old school D&D and none of the games people recommended really teach me or were too modern for what I was looking. Someone said, why you don't learn like we all learned during 70 and 80 with no internet, just read the damn book, interpret, takes note and play. I did it.

Mentzer explanation was wonderful, next was James Raggi with Lamentation of the Flame Princess tutorial, and some of his modules/adventures, next game was Basic D&D 1E Holmes and my first DM game :D

Valhuen after reading your last two replies, it seems you're not into the game as a game to having fun playing it, but the art, design, and concept. You may try to look out of the OSR sphere as well.

Take a look

- https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/298580/Rangers-of-Shadow-Deep-Deluxe-Edition
- https://www.exaltedfuneral.com/products/disciples-of-bone-shadow-conquered-sun-edition-pdf

Quote from: Valhuen on April 03, 2023, 04:50:01 PM

Quote from: cimmer12 on April 03, 2023, 12:14:27 PM
To the OP. Why you Production Value/Content?

Short answer: The Menzter "Red Box" Basic Set with the Elmore art drew me into the game like many other Gen X gamers at the time. I have always appreciated good art work in the RPG's that I purchase. I like not only getting a feel for the mechanics, but immersion is also essential. Good art (where an apparent effort has been made), combined with at least salvageable mechanics will peak my interest in purchasing and eventually getting a game on the table. This is most important personally in fantasy and sci-fi titles. Combine this with the fact that out of the numerous games I have seen over the years, the ones with the lowest effort or no art have tended to be on the poor side. The explosion of OSR titles over the last few years has certainly not made this situation any better.

It's funny because in line with this topic, today I was trying to think about which of the books on my RPG shelf has all-over the best art in it, and the Red Box Player's Guide is probably top three.

Quote from: Valhuen on April 03, 2023, 04:50:01 PM
I have many fantasy titles purchased on the shelves because the art and concept drew me in. Symbaroum, Trudvang Chronicles, Lex Occultum, Shadows of Esteren, Lex Arcana, Brancalonia, Kult 4th Edition, the upcoming Inferno setting based on Dante's Divine Comedy....never would have picked these up without that immersion bonus. Likelihood of my ever running them with a group is admittedly minimal, and that's fine, since a decent OSR game would likely be preferable to most, but I do not mind collecting all of these titles if only for a good read.

Trudvang Chronicles has some absolutely amazing art in it. I don't own that book in hard copy, or else it'd probably be the best I own. Outside of the Larry Elmore Basic Edition, the best book I do own for pure presentation is probably Black Void, which is a Modiphius product. Not a great game, but it's a really nice book. A lot of Free League's books are extremely high quality too. 

Generally, you're not going to get that kind of production value in the OSR, partially for budget reasons, and partially because slightly janky black-&-white art is part of the OSR aesthetic.

Quote from: Valhuen on April 03, 2023, 05:19:11 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on April 03, 2023, 03:54:38 PM
I will disagree with you about Lamentations of the Flame Princess. The game is solid, the production top notch, and I happen to really like the art.

As for hidden gems, check out Helvéczia. It's pretty much a work of art and I can't wait to play it some time.

Have several of the PDFs and the box set, will give them another read through tonight. Am trying to see what others do when it comes to this title, I just know my first impression was "meh" overall. It may simply be the presentation and world presented are not personally appealing (though I love Lovecraft and CoC, "weird fantasy" has simply never been a genre I enjoyed outside of the occasional Conan/Hyperboria themed game). Also unlike others, I find the art is simply unappealing. May simply be a stylistic preference. YMMV.

The Lamentations aesthetic is going to be a love-it-or-hate-it for most people. To me it rides the line between legitimately interesting and tryhard cringe, sometimes falling on one side or the other. I'll happily argue though that the average art quality in Lamentations product is above the rest of the OSR, at least the games I'm aware of. The paper quality, formatting, etc. is also well above average in all the Lamentations products I've owned hard copies of, too.

Mechanically, I'm not going to argue that Lamentations is amazing. The encumbrance system is really good, and the skill system is better than what you get in most OD&D/Basic derivatives. But for the most part, it's just a very neat, well-organized version of the same game you can get in a large number of other OSR games.

What are people's feelings on Swords and Wizardry?  I have it and I am curious to hear people's thoughts on this.

LotFP has probably the best rules in the bunch (especially because thief and cleric, and equipment) and great looks, too, IMO (but I still prefer DCC here).

If I didn't have my own OSR game (which I didn't mention because the production value is comparatively low), that is what I'd be playing.

But the adventures are hit-and-miss. Some are really great, others not so much.

Quote from: GhostNinja on April 04, 2023, 09:42:43 AM
What are people's feelings on Swords and Wizardry?  I have it and I am curious to hear people's thoughts on this.

I like it a lot, mostly for the Unified Save, and the many derivatives. My current fav is White Box: Fantastic Medieval Adventure Game, and White Star for SF.

Quote from: S'mon on April 04, 2023, 12:11:58 PM
I like it a lot, mostly for the Unified Save, and the many derivatives. My current fav is White Box: Fantastic Medieval Adventure Game, and White Star for SF.

It looks good.  I am planning to give it a read through and if it works maybe use it as well.

Quote from: GhostNinja on April 04, 2023, 09:42:43 AM
What are people's feelings on Swords and Wizardry?  I have it and I am curious to hear people's thoughts on this.

It's become my current favorite OSR game.  It has enough options regarding class and race and plays like a simpler version of AD&D, which it pretty much is.  The rulebook is sleek and well-written.  They're currently running a Kickstarter for a new edition with a few tweaks. See: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/adventuredesigntome/swords-and-wizardry-complete-revised-rulebook

The single save mechanic is fantastic.  Plus, there are several really good monster books, filled with a range of interesting creatures, some new, some from older editions of D&D.  Monster stat blocks are even shorter than in B/X.  They also have a large number of available published adventures for all character levels, including high level play.  Personal favorites include the megadungeon Rappan Athuk, the reboot of Tegel Manor, and the campaign adventure City of Brass.

Their rulebook used to be free as a pdf; not sure if that still applies under Mythmere.  I do know they've got a free preview of the new book on the KS page.

Yeah, S&W is great. Lots of options, monsters, single save, and a great SRD.

Quote from: GhostNinja on April 04, 2023, 09:42:43 AM
What are people's feelings on Swords and Wizardry?  I have it and I am curious to hear people's thoughts on this.

I suspect you are more of a beginner than me ;D I'll try to quickly explain

- Old School Essential (OSE) is a clone for a specific D&D edition, for this game is: Basic D&D 2E (1981) also known as B/X (Basic and Expert) which you can get easily the original book. Already exist clones for B/X and B/X with novel features (Lamentation of the Flame Pricess) or you can get a good DM screen and replace OSE.
- Swords and Wizardry (S&W) is another clone for a specific D&D edition, for this game is: D&D (1974) or Original D&D or D&D 0E (Zero Edition) which you can get easily the original book. But in this case to understand the game is difficult if you already don't have experience or someone explains to you. For 0E is more than welcome to have a clone with an easy-to-understand writing.

1) In the OSR movement/community you'll found clone or retroclone or also known as "simulacrum". What you need to understand here is the definition of clone: To produce a copy of; imitate closely.

2) Other kind of OSR games, these games are not clone, these games are descended from and similar to the progenitor... D&D you guessed it, sharing the same game mechanics as D&D from TSR era. From Original D&D (1974), all the Basic D&D editions 1E (Holmes), 2E (B/X), 3E (BECMI) and 4E (Black Box and Rules Cyclopedia (1991)) and the two Advanced D&D editions (1E & 2E (1989)). Some game mechanics (but not all) are different, completely new (not D&D related) or some copy from other games. This is where you see innovation and novel features at the same time being compatible between TSR D&D games.

3) Other generation of OSR Games that innovate taking a different path, "what if.... D&D keeps the wargaming style of play", "what if... D&D keeps using Swords and Sorcery with a better experience instead of High Fantasy", "what if... D&D has a better dungeon crawler gameplay". Here is where you see more innovation and novel features, and you need a little of work in your behalf if you want to make it compatible with other OSR games, but should be possible.

There are other games that are not OSR but game developers trying to make money labeling their game as OSR to get on the "OSR Wagon", labels like "Modernized Old school" or whatever. I'm not saying this are bad games, but are not OSR and one of the advantage is the compatibility with the thousand of games/adventures out there, as you guess it these games are not D&D descendant.

Back to your original question:

Quote from: GhostNinja on April 04, 2023, 09:42:43 AM
What are people's feelings on Swords and Wizardry?  I have it and I am curious to hear people's thoughts on this.

The game is as good as the original D&D (D&D 0E) because it's a clone, uses the same rules, and is good as the explanation from authors of rules. I'll repeat "imitate closely" some clones are 90% from the original, and this is not a bad thing, it may fill a gab or something, or simplify a complex rule.

Yes S&W is great!

Quote from: Cathal on April 03, 2023, 07:47:24 PM

Quote from: Valhuen on April 03, 2023, 04:50:01 PM
Combine this with the fact that out of the numerous games I have seen over the years, the ones with the lowest effort or no art have tended to be on the poor side. The explosion of OSR titles over the last few years has certainly not made this situation any better.

The game that came to my mind reading this, Mork Borg, it seems people play it just for the art and design, which I found shitty. I read some reviews mentioning that the rules are shitty too. Either way I'll take a look in the future.

Hey Valhuen I started with the Red Box too (Basic D&D 3E) haha but in 2021-22 :D true. I was trying to learn how to play RPG, specific old school D&D and none of the games people recommended really teach me or were too modern for what I was looking. Someone said, why you don't learn like we all learned during 70 and 80 with no internet, just read the damn book, interpret, takes note and play. I did it.

Mentzer explanation was wonderful, next was James Raggi with Lamentation of the Flame Princess tutorial, and some of his modules/adventures, next game was Basic D&D 1E Holmes and my first DM game :D

Valhuen after reading your last two replies, it seems you're not into the game as a game to having fun playing it, but the art, design, and concept. You may try to look out of the OSR sphere as well.

My apologies if I have given the wrong impression, been in a bit of a fog the last week or so.

I fully understand the aesthetics of the OSR movement, and as per my original post I do find many OSR titles fit the bill with both great art and layout along with stellar rules presentation. The examples of other RPG's I gave outside the OSR sphere were to illustrate those games I find at the "top of the heap" with regards to art and presentation styles. However there are several OSR titles that fill the niche with regards to both art effort and "fun" quotient, such as Hyperboria, ACKS, OSE, etc. There are unfortunately many more that come across as much more amateurish efforts being shilled as premium games. Was merely looking for some more options with regards to the former so as to avoid the latter.   

Quote from: ForgottenF on April 03, 2023, 09:13:42 PM

Quote from: Valhuen on April 03, 2023, 04:50:01 PM

Quote from: cimmer12 on April 03, 2023, 12:14:27 PM
To the OP. Why you Production Value/Content?

Short answer: The Menzter "Red Box" Basic Set with the Elmore art drew me into the game like many other Gen X gamers at the time. I have always appreciated good art work in the RPG's that I purchase. I like not only getting a feel for the mechanics, but immersion is also essential. Good art (where an apparent effort has been made), combined with at least salvageable mechanics will peak my interest in purchasing and eventually getting a game on the table. This is most important personally in fantasy and sci-fi titles. Combine this with the fact that out of the numerous games I have seen over the years, the ones with the lowest effort or no art have tended to be on the poor side. The explosion of OSR titles over the last few years has certainly not made this situation any better.

It's funny because in line with this topic, today I was trying to think about which of the books on my RPG shelf has all-over the best art in it, and the Red Box Player's Guide is probably top three.

Quote from: Valhuen on April 03, 2023, 04:50:01 PM
I have many fantasy titles purchased on the shelves because the art and concept drew me in. Symbaroum, Trudvang Chronicles, Lex Occultum, Shadows of Esteren, Lex Arcana, Brancalonia, Kult 4th Edition, the upcoming Inferno setting based on Dante's Divine Comedy....never would have picked these up without that immersion bonus. Likelihood of my ever running them with a group is admittedly minimal, and that's fine, since a decent OSR game would likely be preferable to most, but I do not mind collecting all of these titles if only for a good read.

Trudvang Chronicles has some absolutely amazing art in it. I don't own that book in hard copy, or else it'd probably be the best I own. Outside of the Larry Elmore Basic Edition, the best book I do own for pure presentation is probably Black Void, which is a Modiphius product. Not a great game, but it's a really nice book. A lot of Free League's books are extremely high quality too. 

Generally, you're not going to get that kind of production value in the OSR, partially for budget reasons, and partially because slightly janky black-&-white art is part of the OSR aesthetic.

Quote from: Valhuen on April 03, 2023, 05:19:11 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on April 03, 2023, 03:54:38 PM
I will disagree with you about Lamentations of the Flame Princess. The game is solid, the production top notch, and I happen to really like the art.

As for hidden gems, check out Helvéczia. It's pretty much a work of art and I can't wait to play it some time.

Have several of the PDFs and the box set, will give them another read through tonight. Am trying to see what others do when it comes to this title, I just know my first impression was "meh" overall. It may simply be the presentation and world presented are not personally appealing (though I love Lovecraft and CoC, "weird fantasy" has simply never been a genre I enjoyed outside of the occasional Conan/Hyperboria themed game). Also unlike others, I find the art is simply unappealing. May simply be a stylistic preference. YMMV.

The Lamentations aesthetic is going to be a love-it-or-hate-it for most people. To me it rides the line between legitimately interesting and tryhard cringe, sometimes falling on one side or the other. I'll happily argue though that the average art quality in Lamentations product is above the rest of the OSR, at least the games I'm aware of. The paper quality, formatting, etc. is also well above average in all the Lamentations products I've owned hard copies of, too.

Mechanically, I'm not going to argue that Lamentations is amazing. The encumbrance system is really good, and the skill system is better than what you get in most OD&D/Basic derivatives. But for the most part, it's just a very neat, well-organized version of the same game you can get in a large number of other OSR games.

I believe that is my primary issue with the game, I much prefer a more straightforward presentation and it does at times cross that line into "cringe". I guess it merely rubs me the wrong way, but I in no way disparage those that have no issue with its approach. If nothing else at least you can say that Raggi is indeed unwoke, so there is that at least.... :)

Quote from: Eric Diaz on April 04, 2023, 10:42:50 PM
Yeah, S&W is great. Lots of options, monsters, single save, and a great SRD.

Ok well I will take a look at it.

Quote from: Cathal on April 05, 2023, 12:44:46 PM
I suspect you are more of a beginner than me ;D I'll try to quickly explain

With the OSR? Yes, I am new.  Role Playing? No, been doing it for 30 years.

Quote from: Cathal on April 05, 2023, 12:44:46 PM
The game is as good as the original D&D (D&D 0E) because it's a clone, uses the same rules, and is good as the explanation from authors of rules. I'll repeat "imitate closely" some clones are 90% from the original, and this is not a bad thing, it may fill a gab or something, or simplify a complex rule.

Yes S&W is great!

Interesting.  Going to check it out.

Quote from: GhostNinja on April 06, 2023, 09:03:33 AM
With the OSR? Yes, I am new.  Role Playing? No, been doing it for 30 years.

Really? so sorry man. I was trying to help :-X I'm very, very new, studying and reading for the last couple of months everything about TTRPG. Hopes it helps someone else reading that.

Back to the main topic

I like the Art Cover from this game Planes of Perils, from Pigames. I don't have the game yet.

https://www.pigames.net/store/default.php?cPath=152

(cover below)
(https://www.pigames.net/store/images_fullcovers/cover_1078.jpg)


And the Art from this game Swords & Chaos From Blackspire Fantasy. Take a look at the PDF preview.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/416477/Swords--Chaos

(cover below)
(https://d1vzi28wh99zvq.cloudfront.net/images/23287/416477.png)

Quote from: Cathal on April 06, 2023, 02:44:14 PM
Really? so sorry man. I was trying to help :-X I'm very, very new, studying and reading for the last couple of months everything about TTRPG. Hopes it helps someone else reading that.

No problem.  No offense taken.

Quote from: Cathal on April 06, 2023, 02:44:14 PM
Back to the main topic

I like the Art Cover from this game Planes of Perils, from Pigames. I don't have the game yet.

https://www.pigames.net/store/default.php?cPath=152

(cover below)
(https://www.pigames.net/store/images_fullcovers/cover_1078.jpg)


And the Art from this game Swords & Chaos From Blackspire Fantasy. Take a look at the PDF preview.

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/416477/Swords--Chaos

(cover below)
(https://d1vzi28wh99zvq.cloudfront.net/images/23287/416477.png)

Thanks for the link.  I will check these game out.

Unfortunately, Swords & Chaos is kind of a dog, despite its cool cover.  I backed the KS because it promised to be a Swords & Sorcery game using Castles & Crusades' Siege Engine as the base.  Technically, it does that, but it's really just mildly house-ruled C&C.  No particularly interesting classes, mechanics, etc.  Even most of the spells are simply renamed D&D or C&C spells.  I read it once and flipped it online.  My shelf space is too limited to waste on mediocre games like that.

Quote from: Persimmon on April 06, 2023, 06:01:35 PM
Unfortunately, Swords & Chaos is kind of a dog, despite its cool cover.  I backed the KS because it promised to be a Swords & Sorcery game using Castles & Crusades' Siege Engine as the base.  Technically, it does that, but it's really just mildly house-ruled C&C.  No particularly interesting classes, mechanics, etc.  Even most of the spells are simply renamed D&D or C&C spells.  I read it once and flipped it online.  My shelf space is too limited to waste on mediocre games like that.

That's too bad.  Sounds like a dont recommend.

Quote from: Persimmon on April 06, 2023, 06:01:35 PM
I backed the KS because it promised to be a Swords & Sorcery game using Castles & Crusades' Siege Engine as the base.  Technically, it does that, but it's really just mildly house-ruled C&C.  No particularly interesting classes, mechanics, etc.  Even most of the spells are simply renamed D&D or C&C spells.  I read it once and flipped it online.  My shelf space is too limited to waste on mediocre games like that.

This is the real bane of the OSR - taking an existing OSR game, renaming & reprinting it, claiming you've made a new game. An example that annoyed me was Tales from the Sorcerer Under the Mountain, which is just S&W with an optional Luck mechanic.

Quote from: S'mon on April 07, 2023, 02:24:15 AM
This is the real bane of the OSR - taking an existing OSR game, renaming & reprinting it, claiming you've made a new game. An example that annoyed me was Tales from the Sorcerer Under the Mountain, which is just S&W with an optional Luck mechanic.

How often does this happen? I am curious as I was unaware of it.

Quote from: GhostNinja on April 07, 2023, 08:55:30 AM

Quote from: S'mon on April 07, 2023, 02:24:15 AM
This is the real bane of the OSR - taking an existing OSR game, renaming & reprinting it, claiming you've made a new game. An example that annoyed me was Tales from the Sorcerer Under the Mountain, which is just S&W with an optional Luck mechanic.

How often does this happen? I am curious as I was unaware of it.

Pretty much, right now lots of OSR games are like this. That was I trying to say before, using other words ;D, when we talked about B/X and one of my anger with lots of OSR games. As a beginner with not attached nostalgia I only see repeated games, labeled as something new, and at the same time is difficult for me to quickly identify game like this.

What I know, the first generation OSR games were or mostly retroclones which mean "almost the same legally" for specific versions of D&D from the range of years I mentioned before. Broadly speaking, these games had specific goals, better writing, better interpretation, to fill some gaps here and there, new adventures, and to allow people to play those editions of D&D.

Years ago it was hard to find or buy D&D for those specific editions, the company stopped supporting and releasing adventures many years ago. Keep in mind that these games are not like video games that don't run on the newest operating system, you can perfectly play these editions of D&D.

Broadly speaking second generation of OSR games was, not just cool art or better wording, it has innovation and new mechanics, interesting/gonzo new settings etc

At some point, people started releasing every D&D edition to make money when it is no longer necessary. PDF of the original and first editions are already available, taking advantage of nostalgia for some, and taking advantage of the OSR popularity (mess). Now, with better legal understanding, is a chaos now everyone copies each other to make quick money, with no novel feature. Oh! Don't forget that some people twist the words and definition to include their game into the "OSR"  ::)

Quote from: Cathal on April 07, 2023, 10:53:25 AM
Pretty much, right now lots of OSR games are like this. That was I trying to say before, using other words ;D, when we talked about B/X and one of my anger with lots of OSR games. As a beginner with not attached nostalgia I only see repeated games, labeled as something new, and at the same time is difficult for me to quickly identify game like this.

What I know, the first generation OSR games were or mostly retroclones which mean "almost the same legally" for specific versions of D&D from the range of years I mentioned before. Broadly speaking, these games had specific goals, better writing, better interpretation, to fill some gaps here and there, new adventures, and to allow people to play those editions of D&D.

I knew when I got Old School Essentials that was what I was getting, a retroclone that was basically already published rules that were packaged in a way that was clear, instead of trying to dig through many different books trying to piece it all together.

Quote from: Cathal on April 07, 2023, 10:53:25 AM
Years ago it was hard to find or buy D&D for those specific editions, the company stopped supporting and releasing adventures many years ago. Keep in mind that these games are not like video games that don't run on the newest operating system, you can perfectly play these editions of D&D.

So True.

Quote from: Cathal on April 07, 2023, 10:53:25 AM
Broadly speaking second generation of OSR games was, not just cool art or better wording, it has innovation and new mechanics, interesting/gonzo new settings etc

At some point, people started releasing every D&D edition to make money when it is no longer necessary. PDF of the original and first editions are already available, taking advantage of nostalgia for some, and taking advantage of the OSR popularity (mess). Now, with better legal understanding, is a chaos now everyone copies each other to make quick money, with no novel feature. Oh! Don't forget that some people twist the words and definition to include their game into the "OSR"  ::)

Hmm, interesting.