Quote from: thedungeondelver;631974"Please don't forget me now that AD&D is readily available again!!!  PLEASE!"

I know you're just taking a dig at Raggi here, but anyone keen on AD&D would be far better served by OSRIC than Raggi's game (obviously).

And really, even with the fancy collectors' editions now available (copies of which I now have), the OSRIC A5 book is so compact and light, I could envision using it instead of carrying around 3+ hardbacks.

(I assume, though, that WotC eventually will make all the 1e AD&D books available as PDFs...)

Quote from: YourSwordisMine;632572Now, when someone puts out a settingless MERP retro-clone, I'll be all over that...

Me too.

Quote from: APN;632593Isn't that HARP (High Adventure Role Playing)?

No, while HARP bears many similarities to MERP, it is a different game.

Quote from: Fiasco;632921Or maybe they actually just want to play the game (says the guy currently playing in a SWN campaign).

Yes - I didn't mean to exclude people using the entire system for a campaign.  That was an omission on my part.

Quote from: ningauble;632716I might be going assholio here, but personally I see a difference between those who charge money and those who don't.

I've paid a couple of bucks for a "new old school" module now and then, but I've also downloaded a lot of free stuff that's been just as good, and in some cases better.

I mean, if the author is just looking for some beer money in exchange for some impressive work he did while immersed in his hobby, that's cool. But I find something distasteful about these questionable kickstarters, people asking for thousands of dollars for some house rules they added to a game they didn't invent, or for what amounts to little more than Some Guy's Dungeon.

It's just an idea, but maybe that's why people seemed burned out on the retroclones. They see it as yet another thing to buy that doesn't necessarily offer that much.

Why is RPG authors' work considered valueless?

Seriously, I cannot think of another medium, genre, field, industry, whatever the hell you want to call it, that still has quite such a strong attitude that the creators should not expect to be paid for their work.  Even art and music are developing in recent years a far more entrepreneurial spirit and a greater expectation that being good at them should make you a living.  But RPGs? It seems like things are getting worse.

Oh sure, you'll shell out for the book, but what I hear in posts like these, and the many others bitching about "how dare they not release their work for free" or "why is that Kickstart so expensive" and on and on, that the person who actually did the writing doesn't apparently deserve any of that bread.

You realize that writing a game is work, right?  And that work being time, and time being money, that work isn't free?  Those Kickstarters run in the thousands of dollars because that's what it costs to actually be able to afford to devote that time to writing that book.

The original IGG campaign asked for $5,000 for Hulks and Horrors.  That $5,000, after IGG and Paypal took their cut, and god knows what once I reported it in taxes, and the nearly $3,000 it was going to cost to do even the basic black and white art budget I had planned, would've left me making about a penny a word.  

A penny.

Even fucking shitty romance novelists make better than that.

No-one's forcing gamers with entitlement issues to buy games if they don't want to. I'm sure they can pirate them somewhere if they look hard enough.

Quote from: ningauble;632716It's just an idea, but maybe that's why people seemed burned out on the retroclones. They see it as yet another thing to buy that doesn't necessarily offer that much.

The best indicator is when more poorly presented Kickstarters crash before they are funded. A lot of folks bought on optimism and not a lot of evidence to show the writer can deliver. Well, we know better now.

Quote from: J Arcane;633081Why is RPG authors' work considered valueless?

Seriously, I cannot think of another medium, genre, field, industry, whatever the hell you want to call it, that still has quite such a strong attitude that the creators should not expect to be paid for their work.  Even art and music are developing in recent years a far more entrepreneurial spirit and a greater expectation that being good at them should make you a living.  But RPGs? It seems like things are getting worse.

Oh sure, you'll shell out for the book, but what I hear in posts like these, and the many others bitching about "how dare they not release their work for free" or "why is that Kickstart so expensive" and on and on, that the person who actually did the writing doesn't apparently deserve any of that bread.

You realize that writing a game is work, right?  And that work being time, and time being money, that work isn't free?  Those Kickstarters run in the thousands of dollars because that's what it costs to actually be able to afford to devote that time to writing that book.

The original IGG campaign asked for $5,000 for Hulks and Horrors.  That $5,000, after IGG and Paypal took their cut, and god knows what once I reported it in taxes, and the nearly $3,000 it was going to cost to do even the basic black and white art budget I had planned, would've left me making about a penny a word.  

A penny.

Even fucking shitty romance novelists make better than that.

The reason you wouldn't make any money at it is because it's not a business, it's a hobby. Why would you report a hobby on your taxes?

Some people are able to turn their hobby into a business, but not nearly as many as people who think they can and actually can't.

The original post referred to the oft-heard lament, "Not another retro-clone!" And certain people who sell retroclones are getting uptight about that. Well, too bad. The "market" is oversaturated with retroclones, and that's why people are crinkling their noses. That's the way it is with trends. Remember what happened to all those hair metal bands when Nirvana hit it big?

Plenty of people are releasing decent-quality free stuff, so if you're charging money, you'd better deliver, that's all I'm saying.

Quote from: Vile;633112No-one's forcing gamers with entitlement issues to buy games if they don't want to. I'm sure they can pirate them somewhere if they look hard enough.

Is it the gamers with entitlement issues, or the people charging for their product? What would make someone think that their warmed-over D&D is worth thousands of dollars of people's hard-earned money?

I guess if you're Ayn Rand or P.T. Barnum, you'd just shrug your shoulders and keep picking the pockets of suckers. Fine, that's your value system. But if you're going to run a business, remember that the customer is always right. So if the customers or potential customers start complaining that there are too many damn retro-clones, then there are probably too many damn retro-clones. So don't bristle.

I'm coming across as standing on a soapbox here. Sorry internet forums have that effect on me. Actually I don't begrudge creative people charging for their work. But there's a difference between Goodman Games and Joe Schmo Productions.

Quote from: ningauble;633182But there's a difference between Goodman Games and Joe Schmo Productions.

The thing you are not considering is that at one point Joseph Goodman was definitely a Joe Schmo. But due to hard work and the product he produced, Joseph Goodman was able to gain the reputation he has today.

The same for anybody else, kickstarter or not. In the end the deal is that a bad project, badly handled will sink a person's reputation. Kickstarters just magnifies that truism. Kickstarter projects should not be lightly started and well-planned from the onset.

Quote from: ningauble;633180Plenty of people are releasing decent-quality free stuff, so if you're charging money, you'd better deliver, that's all I'm saying.

Thats the beauty of the internet era. Product reviews are all over the place. Those that charge money and deliver crap will have thier work roasted over the coals of the intarwebs in a heartbeat.

It has always been up to the consumer to decide what to purchase.

Quote from: ningauble;633182But if you're going to run a business, remember that the customer is always right. So if the customers or potential customers start complaining that there are too many damn retro-clones, then there are probably too many damn retro-clones. So don't bristle.

If it were so simple...

Customers are people spending money. Commentators are people posting on the Internet. These groups overlap, but only to some extent - and a sensible business will only consider the second inasmuch as it influences the behaviour of the first. A lot of people who complain will never even consider buying the thing they criticise, and the same happens with people who declare it a "10/10 OMG Must buy!" It works a lot like that on the real markets too - I have seen supposedly sane and experienced periodicals like The Financial Times and The Economist fall victim to wishful thinking (or worse, bending the facts to serve an agenda) a few times too many, while real buyers and sellers did something completely different than what the news might have suggested.

And of course, a lot of game publishing happens outside the concerns of economic rationality. Some do this because they are idiots, others do it because they can afford the luxury of treating it as a hobby.

Quote from: estar;633185The thing you are not considering is that at one point Joseph Goodman was definitely a Joe Schmo. But due to hard work and the product he produced, Joseph Goodman was able to gain the reputation he has today.

The same for anybody else, kickstarter or not. In the end the deal is that a bad project, badly handled will sink a person's reputation. Kickstarters just magnifies that truism. Kickstarter projects should not be lightly started and well-planned from the onset.

Yes, this is all true. I should be careful what I say because many people here probably sell products. Again, I don't have a problem with that. I like what you're saying about kickstarters not being started lightly, it's partly what I'm getting at here.

Quote from: Melan;633191If it were so simple...

Customers are people spending money. Commentators are people posting on the Internet. These groups overlap, but only to some extent - and a sensible business will only consider the second inasmuch as it influences the behaviour of the first. A lot of people who complain will never even consider buying the thing they criticise, and the same happens with people who declare it a "10/10 OMG Must buy!" It works a lot like that on the real markets too - I have seen supposedly sane and experienced periodicals like The Financial Times and The Economist fall victim to wishful thinking (or worse, bending the facts to serve an agenda) a few times too many, while real buyers and sellers did something completely different than what the news might have suggested.

And of course, a lot of game publishing happens outside the concerns of economic rationality. Some do this because they are idiots, others do it because they can afford the luxury of treating it as a hobby.

You make some good points. What I'm suggesting is - why not remove the economics from amateur RPG publishing entirely? If you're only going to make $200 in profit off of your RPG work in 2013, then why not just cut it out with the business plan and publish for free or for beer money? That's basically what you're making anyway. Do it for the good of the hobby. If your reputation goes through the roof because you're that talented, maybe then it's time to bust out the business suit.

Quote from: ningauble;633199You make some good points. What I'm suggesting is - why not remove the economics from amateur RPG publishing entirely? If you're only going to make $200 in profit off of your RPG work in 2013, then why not just cut it out with the business plan and publish for free or for beer money?

That's one of the main reasons my Microlite74 games (and my new project, Lords & Wizards) are free. I simply would not make enough money selling them to make it worth my while to deal with carefully tracking the income selling them would generate and paying taxes on it. The hassle of doing this isn't worth it, especially when I could spend the time I would spend on this  either working (which pays more per hour), writing M74 material, playing games, or doing other things I enjoy more that bookkeeping.

Quote from: ningauble;633199You make some good points. What I'm suggesting is - why not remove the economics from amateur RPG publishing entirely? If you're only going to make $200 in profit off of your RPG work in 2013, then why not just cut it out with the business plan and publish for free or for beer money? That's basically what you're making anyway. Do it for the good of the hobby. If your reputation goes through the roof because you're that talented, maybe then it's time to bust out the business suit.

There is no potential upside in "free".

It's like the old joke about the pious woman praying to God that she might win the lottery. God can do something about it, but first she has to buy a ticket. If you charge nothing, you will make nothing. Odds are that your particular offering will move 50 copies over its lifetime and vanish without a ripple, but maybe you'll get somewhere with it after all. Moreover, the more money you pour into the book in production values, the better your chances of getting somewhere with it- not much bigger chances, but noticeably so. Thus, the profit motive encourages producers to dish up higher-quality material than we'd get if they just slapped it all in a word doc and tossed it up on their blog.

I like the hobby as much as the next guy, but if it wants me to spend my time sweating kerning details, adjusting page gutters, doing proofreading, negotiating contracts with artists, handling project management, and figuring out how to send money to Nigerian illustrators then it's gonna have to show me the money. If I charge for it, I can at least find out if the hobby really wants me to do this stuff or if I'm just deluding myself that it does.