Quote from: SineNomine;632794My customers buy more core rule sets than modules...I'm putting out a module for Spears of the Dawn within the next month, and honestly, I'm not expecting more than half the sales I'm making on the core game because that's how the numbers have shaped up in the earlier cases.

...But if you're not in the market for new grist then the odds are that you're buying less stuff than the guy who is.

My impression is that your customer base is squarely in the camp of those that, if ten popular OSR folks were to put out ten new 2nd/3rd generation retroclone core rules, they would buy as many of them as possible.  Perhaps they are buying core rules to get tweaks to add into their home rules goulash, and they home brew all their adventures while gaming the ever-loving crap out of it.  Or, maybe they are just addicted to buying core rules and the reason modules don't sell as well is because the rules go up on the shelf with the others and never see actual play.  It's probably a mix of both.  

But I think that modules can provide lots of new grist - see Lost Caverns of Tsojconth.

Quote from: T. Foster;632841With me its a combination of laziness and unwillingness to devote that much time or effort to a dumb elfgame. Coming up with good adventures - coming up with fresh and interesting challenges that are neither too easy nor too difficult, drawing maps, writing flavorful descriptive text, etc. - is both difficult and time-consuming. I'd much rather someone else did all of that for me so all I had to do was read what they'd written, perhaps put a bit of individual spin on it, and present it to a tableful of players while we share salty snacks and sugary drinks and make dick-jokes.

The problem is that the overwhelming majority of published adventures aren't any damn good - they're either bland and generic, or poorly designed and written, or are so idiosyncratic to the creator's own game-world and vision that I can't easily integrate them into my preferred flavor of D&D. I desperately wish there were more published modules I liked as much as The Abduction of Good King Despot and The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth and Ghost Tower of Inverness and Dark Tower and Caverns of Thracia and Necropolis and Temple of Elemental Evil, because given the choice I'd MUCH rather just sit down and run one of those than have to create something like them myself.

Ok, I'll bite... so are there actually any NEW adventure/modules that have been done by the OSR (rather than by TSR, back in the gygax days) that you think are really great and live up to that level of quality?

RPGPundit

Quote from: T. Foster;632841The problem is that the overwhelming majority of published adventures aren't any damn good - they're either bland and generic, or poorly designed and written, or are so idiosyncratic to the creator's own game-world and vision that I can't easily integrate them into my preferred flavor of D&D. I desperately wish there were more published modules I liked as much as The Abduction of Good King Despot and The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth and Ghost Tower of Inverness and Dark Tower and Caverns of Thracia and Necropolis and Temple of Elemental Evil, because given the choice I'd MUCH rather just sit down and run one of those than have to create something like them myself.

That's the thing. Even with thorough research, and flat-out rejecting 95 per cent of the adventures I come across, I end up being disappointed. Paizo are supposed to be the best in the business, but their presumed setting and tone - a kitchen sink of of renaissance/cliche/horror fantasy, all sanitized with a modern 21st century sensibility, really turns me off. Even the artwork and the names of NPCs can just turn me right off an adventure or setting book. I bought the first two installments of two adventure paths - Second Darkness and Serpent's Skull - and they just didn't do anything for me.

I think today's fantasy sensibilities are so different from my own that I just can't make the jump. Just like Pathfinder and 4E D&D are aimed at a different audience with different backgrounds and expectations than mine, so are popular modern adventures.  

And the old school stuff seems to be generic monster motels. I'd like something that took modern adventure design approach, with fleshed out NPCs, story hooks, and plot webs (not to mention production values), with a genuinely old-school feel regarding fantasy settings and attitudes.

Quote from: Haffrung;632895And the old school stuff seems to be generic monster motels. I'd like something that took modern adventure design approach, with fleshed out NPCs, story hooks, and plot webs (not to mention production values), with a genuinely old-school feel regarding fantasy settings and attitudes.

If you haven't already, check out L2 Assassins Knot by Len Lakofka. It was way ahead of its time.

Quote from: SineNomine;632794Core rules provide the possibility of an entirely new set of options, a new setting, a new pile of mental grist to grind for the buyer. Modules don't offer that kind of hope.

I don't buy SF modules because my preferences for SF worlds run contrary to the way people tend to imagine them. Most people go for heavily militarised settings with a lot of cool gadgets, advanced technology and aliens, with adventures in the obligatory 'abandoned starship' or revolving around military conflicts and exploring hostile planets. Their imaginations are shaped by Star Wars, Star Trek, Aliens and Firefly.

If I ran an SF campaign, it wouldn't have any computers more complicated than pocket calculators (or huge things the size of city blocks doing heavy-duty number crunching), handguns and simple lasers would be the kind of weapons people would lug around, and action would take place around space casinos and crowded administrative districts, focusing entirely on human conflicts and investigation with exotic SF backdrops. So, basically, Demon Princes the Campaign. SWN would be a great vehicle for this game and the only reason I am not running it right now is that I am already running two other campaigns.

But the real point is, SF can be a lot more specific about its assumptions than fantasy, which, even with difficulties, translates fairly well across different worlds. And that's why it is very hard to write modules for it that aren't Space Dungeons.

Quote from: EOTB;632886My impression is that your customer base is squarely in the camp of those that, if ten popular OSR folks were to put out ten new 2nd/3rd generation retroclone core rules, they would buy as many of them as possible.  Perhaps they are buying core rules to get tweaks to add into their home rules goulash, and they home brew all their adventures while gaming the ever-loving crap out of it.  Or, maybe they are just addicted to buying core rules and the reason modules don't sell as well is because the rules go up on the shelf with the others and never see actual play.  It's probably a mix of both.  

But I think that modules can provide lots of new grist - see Lost Caverns of Tsojconth.

Or maybe they actually just want to play the game (says the guy currently playing in a SWN campaign).

Quote from: Melan;632912If I ran an SF campaign, it wouldn't have any computers more complicated than pocket calculators (or huge things the size of city blocks doing heavy-duty number crunching), handguns and simple lasers would be the kind of weapons people would lug around, and action would take place around space casinos and crowded administrative districts, focusing entirely on human conflicts and investigation with exotic SF backdrops. So, basically, Demon Princes the Campaign. SWN would be a great vehicle for this game and the only reason I am not running it right now is that I am already running two other campaigns.

I'll save Mr. Crawford the embarassment of pointing out that he has product that's perfectly suited to your needs (in addition to SWN core) right here.

Also, that's pretty much how my short-lived Traveller campaign rolled. Heavy on intrigue and investigation, not a lot of derelict delving or laser gunfights. (maybe that's what I was doing wrong?) ANd I could have sworn this was fairly usual for a Trav game.

Quote from: Melan;632912But the real point is, SF can be a lot more specific about its assumptions than fantasy, which, even with difficulties, translates fairly well across different worlds. And that's why it is very hard to write modules for it that aren't Space Dungeons.

SWN does a fairly good job of getting out of the GM's way when it comes to getting the show on the road; there's no "implied" or "default" mode of play. Contrast with Mongoose Traveller which is very clear about "space smugglers" being the "standard" game.

Quote from: Fiasco;632921Or maybe they actually just want to play the game (says the guy currently playing in a SWN campaign).

Or maybe a SWN module speaks primarily to people who already bought the core rules.

Quote from: The Butcher;632924I'll save Mr. Crawford the embarassment of pointing out that he has product that's perfectly suited to your needs (in addition to SWN core) right here.
...
SWN does a fairly good job of getting out of the GM's way when it comes to getting the show on the road; there's no "implied" or "default" mode of play. Contrast with Mongoose Traveller which is very clear about "space smugglers" being the "standard" game.

What do you know, that does look like a useful product (although not an adventure module). And I agree that SWN would be very well suited for that sort of game. That's why I even considered it (okay, I briefly considered black box Traveller, which is also pleasingly low-tech).

Quote from: Exploderwizard;632908If you haven't already, check out L2 Assassins Knot by Len Lakofka. It was way ahead of its time.

Definitely a classic. My buddy DMed that adventure (and the Secret of Bone Hill) back in the day, and they were a lot of fun.

Quote from: RPGPundit;632891Ok, I'll bite... so are there actually any NEW adventure/modules that have been done by the OSR (rather than by TSR, back in the gygax days) that you think are really great and live up to that level of quality?

If there are I haven't seen them yet. A few years ago when OSRIC/1E-stats stuff was first starting to be released I bought and/or downloaded a lot of the more-heavily-hyped adventures and while there were a few decent-ish "meat and potatoes"-style adventures (mostly by James Boney and thedungeondelver, who are both good at capturing the "default 1E" feel of stuff like the Giants modules), there weren't any that I considered to be a "modern classic" that I felt I absolutely HAD to run, and most of them - even well-reviewed stuff like the DCC 1E-conversions and a lot of the dragonsfoot modules and various "megadungeons" - did nothing for me at all. When I was radically downsizing my rpg collection earlier this year I wasn't even tempted to save any of it. The only newly-published quasi-OSR module I kept was Bottle City by Rob Kuntz, and that was solely for its interest as an historical artifact, not because I have any desire to actually run it.

After that I decided it wasn't worth my time or money to go through all this stuff on the chance I might eventually stumble across something I really and truly liked. Nowadays something would have to get an absolute rave review from one of the small handful of people whose opinion I really trust for me to be willing to even take a look at something, much less drop any money on it. And so far, within the last couple-three years, nothing has risen to that level. Which isn't to say it isn't out there, below my friends' radar, but I haven't seen it.

The last setting/adventure I came across that I had to run was Ancient Kingdoms: Mesopotamia. Sadly, I haven't actually run it because it's hard to fit in a mid-level Conan-esque sword and sorcery desert setting into the games I've been running the last few years.

So if there's anyone out there who loves AK:M, I'd appreciate any recommendations of similar material.

Quote from: RPGPundit;631970Opinions?

Raggi is ignoring the second question.  I'll grant him a need for more and more varied retroclones (moar=better), but will he explain why each must be a whole new game?

There is surely a point to economy.  Consider saving a tree, and don't pretend you've designed a game if you're really just publishing a set of house rules.

The Complete Fighter's Handbook didn't include a whole new PHB, either.

QuoteRaggi is ignoring the second question. I'll grant him a need for more and more varied retroclones (moar=better), but will he explain why each must be a whole new game?

Depends on the project.  By the time I got done writing all the new material in a game like Hulks and Horrors, it would be almost silly not to just go ahead and include a full ruleset.

Even in a fantasy game, once you've gone so far as writing up all new classes, monsters, spells, equipment ... why stop there?  It's pretty much little effort to add a system to all that content by then.

Quote from: AteTheHeckUp;632954Raggi is ignoring the second question.  I'll grant him a need for more and more varied retroclones (moar=better), but will he explain why each must be a whole new game?

For the most part, I agree.

I came up with a set of house rules for Swords & Wizardry (easily use-able with 0e D&D, Basic/Expert D&D).  My goal was to come up with something for D&D-ish games with a strong 'sword and sorcery' feel to them.  

Some of those house rules were published as articles in Knockspell and Fight On!.  I eventually posted them all on my blog, and considered putting them together as a supplement.

Much to my delight, Benoist compiled them into a convenient PDF.  (It's still available for free my blog.)

Then Newt Newport of d101 Games took many of those house rules and incorporated them into his quasi-clone Crypts and Things.

I would not have written C&T myself -- although, I should emphasize, I am delighted with it, and am grateful to have everything in a single book.  Left to my own devices, I simply would have made available the rules as a supplement for S&W.

(That said, I think that C&T can be treated as a set of options for S&W, or really, any OSR D&D-ish game, as well as a stand-alone game.)

My own preference would be for supplements and adventures for a small number of OSR clones.  But I certainly do not begrudge anyone who wants to put together their own complete quasi-clone (including Raggi, even though LotfP is not really to my taste).