Quote from: estar;632012The number of retro-clones never a true issue. Full rulesets are dwarfed by the variety and number of other types of OSR projects released.

Only 31 out of 700 odd projects that targeted a an older edition of D&D are full rule systems.

The issue was over blown and over hyped from the get go.

Indeed.  Thanks for pointing this out.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;632059This is a problem, which IMO is made worse by the decline of professional reviews, or the flood of amateur reviews. Whose opinion do you trust?

Mine, obviously. Not just a top reviewer but one that for various reasons has no debts to pay back with the OSR.

RPGPundit

The attitude I take is that if I, the publisher, want to sell to you, the customer, the burden is on me to figure out how to complete the sale. Sure I wish it could easier but it is what is today.

And part of that is what you describe below, realizing that customers are overwhelmed with choices and taking that into account into one's sales plans.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;632059This is a problem, which IMO is made worse by the decline of professional reviews, or the flood of amateur reviews. Whose opinion do you trust?

But I think we muddle through, and if something is really great, you'll hear about it or be invited into a game of it. We just have be a little more educated and smart about looking to the source--just as, for example, I've learned to discount the hype of RPGnet or Storygames/Forge darlings. (Not ignore entirely, but discount about 95%.)

Quote from: estar;632012The number of retro-clones never a true issue. Full rulesets are dwarfed by the variety and number of other types of OSR projects released.

Only 31 out of 700 odd projects that targeted a an older edition of D&D are full rule systems.

The issue was over blown and over hyped from the get go.

You've brought this up in the past, but as I've pointed out, that's not really an accurate way to assess impact.  I mean, if you look at the whole of TSR's products, "rule sets" would be only tiny proportion of everything they've published; and yet those are the central product that everyone remembers and participated in.  Certain very popular adventures, sure, but you'll find way more discussion (for example) about rules in the PHB than you will about any single module, or even than all modules put together.

The OSR may have only made 31 rules-sets out of 700 products, but those 31 rules-sets are likely to have garnered at least 51% of the discussion, versus the other 669.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;632557Mine, obviously. Not just a top reviewer but one that for various reasons has no debts to pay back with the OSR.

RPGPundit

The idea that as the author of a retroclone I should feel somehow "beholden" to sites like DF and KKA is absurd.  

I have scarcely even promoted H&H on the old-guard forums, because the last time I attempted it the reception was icy at best and mostly ignored, and just figuring out whether or not my post was even welcome there was a nightmare.

If the gaming Khmer Rouge like T.Foster and Benoist don't want my contribution to old-school gaming, that's tough fucking luck for them.  

Ultimately, I agree with Raggi.  I made Hulks and Horrors because it's a game I wanted to exist that should've existed 30 years ago.  So I wrote it.  I am glad to see that so far I'm not the only person interested, but I sure as hell wasn't going to put it to public vote, nor was I going to have my idea peer-reviewed by the Dragonsfoot set before I put pen to paper.

The idea is absurd.  I wrote what I wrote, and if people don't want to buy it, they don't have to.  The idea that I'm somehow harming the market just by making another game they might not want to buy is so unbelievably laughable it is hard for me to address with a straight face.

Quote from: RPGPundit;632557Mine, obviously.

I always trust your reviews, i.e. if you like it I know for certain that I wouldn't.

Quote from: J Arcane;632567Ultimately, I agree with Raggi.  I made Hulks and Horrors because it's a game I wanted to exist that should've existed 30 years ago.  So I wrote it.  I am glad to see that so far I'm not the only person interested, but I sure as hell wasn't going to put it to public vote, nor was I going to have my idea peer-reviewed by the Dragonsfoot set before I put pen to paper.

Personally I've no clue what OSR means and even less desire to find out, too busy gaming and all that.

I think the theory is that if you weren't writing a retro-clone nobody will use, then you might be writing a module, setting or pantheon that people really will use.

Tangent:  Why has nobody published a pantheon?  Or is it that someone has, but I've just missed it?  It strikes me that all you've got to do is write Cults of Prax but for the obvious D&Desque pantheons (at least Norse and Greek).  That's not easy, but it is easier than writing a decent retro-clone.

QuoteI think the theory is that if you weren't writing a retro-clone nobody will use, then you might be writing a module, setting or pantheon that people really will use.

In theory, maybe, but will they really?  

I think there is probably room in the market for more proper sandbox modules of the old-school, but from what I've seen if there's any part of the market at risk of saturation, it's the modules.  There are so many awful modules for sale now, and filtering through them is all but impossible.  But you don't hear me whinging about "do we really NEED anymore sandbox modules?!"

Of course, I frankly have always been sort of baffled by the appeal of pre-made modules. To me part of the fun of DMing is that it's a creative endeavour, and building my own maps and settings is part of the whole appeal. Without it one really is just a glorified referee.

As far as B/X retro-clones go, I have ACKs now. I dont think I'll "need" or "want" another.


Now, when someone puts out a settingless MERP retro-clone, I'll be all over that...

Quote from: J Arcane;632571In theory, maybe, but will they really?

I doubt it; everyone seems to want to write a ruleset.  Or more accurately, to be a person who has written an acclaimed ruleset.

Quote from: P&P;632578I doubt it; everyone seems to want to write a ruleset.  Or more accurately, to be a person who has written an acclaimed ruleset.

That wasn't what I meant.

What I meant to ask was: do people really buy all that many modules?  Because it seems like an awful lot are out there already.

Quote from: J Arcane;632580What I meant to ask was: do people really buy all that many modules?  Because it seems like an awful lot are out there already.

People buy more modules than rulesets.

Quote from: J Arcane;632580That wasn't what I meant.

What I meant to ask was: do people really buy all that many modules?  Because it seems like an awful lot are out there already.

I buy a lot of mods and supps, but I've bought my last ruleset.  Then again, I didn't play 1E uninterrupted for 25 years because I was looking for a replacement, or felt it was in need of fixing in some way, either.

I'm not slamming you for writing your own game.  My point is that silent majority of the old school players are not the people either writing, or buying, (or endlessly gabbing about) recently-published rulesets.  Instead, it's the people actually playing TSR-editions of (A)D&D.  That's the "big" market - those who like the game so much they've been playing it uninterrupted for 30 years.  

But sure; free country and all that.  The other option is to chase the market of people who've bought 6 rulesets in the past year and can't seem to develop a campaign in any of them that lasts over 8 weeks.  There's nothing wrong with that creatively - I'm just confused why there are so many people who seem to think that's actually the smart business decision (if any part of old-school RPG publishing could be called "a smart business decision", granted).

Quote from: YourSwordisMine;632572Now, when someone puts out a settingless MERP retro-clone, I'll be all over that...

Isn't that HARP (High Adventure Role Playing)? Not played HARP but back in the day (when MERP first appeared in what, 1984? Something like that) the first thing I did was ditch Middle Earth as a setting, and do away with the metaplot. The players made characters and went dungeon delving and it worked out great. The criticals were an absolute breath of fresh air compared to slicing away at hit point cubes and it was worth the extra hassle of writing out the character sheet and making characters.

I don't think we were playing it right as the 1st edition MERP book is confusing in places, but that didn't matter - we had great fun, and even more so when the Players used Olog Hai as characters. They were badass, and carved their way across the world in a haze of red mist and E criticals.

We moved back to D&D but I have fond memories of MERP.