Quote from: RandallS;632016Given the number of OGL/Open Game Content 0e/1e/BX/BECMI games out there, it will be easy for me to piece together a starting point to modify. Once the game is "finished", there is really no reason not to make it available for free to anyone on the Internet who wants it. Do games like this "balkanize" old school gamers? Considering they are all pretty much based on the same core rules and can easily use adventures and settings from TSR and any retrogame publishers out there, I really don't think so.

I've mellowed my stance in the last few years; I'm not really "against" the creation or sale of any retroclone.  I don't think your game (or any game) posted for free on the internet is more balkanizing than any house rules put up on the internet since 1991.  But there's a difference between what you're doing, and getting a bunch of money to get your brand of D&D in every game shop for free RPG day.  Again to be clear, I am not saying that is a bad thing either.  But I would say the "balkanizing" effect is much greater with that kind of reach as compared to your project.

My point is simply that there is an opportunity cost.  3E was a huge game in part because it was supported by 3rd party publishers, able to use the exact terms, etc.  Absolutely old-school loses some of that synergy this way.

Can any reasonable gamer adapt on the fly?  Sure.  Does that mean the confusion effect is zero?  No.  

If gamers are willing to use material for any of the Baskin-Robbins 31 flavors of D&D out now, in any of the others, why are some publishers printing off separate runs of modules, for different versions of the rulesets?  If everyone was willing to buy whatever was close enough, there should be no demand for ruleset specific print runs.  (The example is Pacesetter games announcing a new, S&W-specific print run of a module).

This is not "bad", but it doesn't support the position that gamers are willing to use whatever is 85% the same at their table.

Quote from: RandallS;632016They do, of course, cut down the number of sales any one company will have because there is a lot of competition for limited old school gamer dollars. However, why should people not publish what they want to just because refraining from publishing would help companies they have no financial interest in? If company X makes a profit of one dollar or a million dollars is immaterial to me if I don't get any of those profits, so why show I adjust what I do to help them?

The point of the close clones was specifically third party publishing.  I don't think the close clones are even really making profit on the rules sets.  That seems to be the province of the 2nd/3rd generation clones.  

Was judges guild better after adopting the universal system?  Was Mayfair leaving money on the table by publishing for AD&D instead of making another Runequest?  I don't know, but I don't think those companies put out 3rd party supplements for D&D because they lost money by not having rulebooks to sell alongside of it.

Quote from: RPGPundit;631970Opinions?

There's always room for another Tékumel, or another Arduin.

Quote from: T. Foster;632023. . . I'm also glad that folks like Raggi are "off doing their own thing" and not trying to shove their square pegs into my community's round hole anymore.

:teehee:

Quote from: The Butcher;632026I'm not sure that's an issue since: (1) he's already carved out a little niche for himself as the OSR's go-to guy for grand guignol (if you'll allow for the abominable alliteration); and (2) most of the stuff he puts out is adventures and those are readily compatible with AD&D 1e. The reprints are a win-win for the OSR really.

Yes but I don't give a shit about what the OSR wants or needs, so.

I kept track of the first five or six OSR game releases, but I've lost interest at this point. The issue is bandwidth, but then that's the issue with the free/shared download model. I just don't have the time or inclination to sift through, research, and download a dozen retroclones/houseruled-D&D a year.

The sad thing is, the greatest customized version of D&D ever written could be published online tomorrow and I'll never know. It isn't a popular opinion these days, but one of the values of traditional publishing is keeping the number of products down to a number that the average fan can keep track of and assess.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;632038Yes but I don't give a shit about what the OSR wants or needs, so.

Well, then, you aren't the "we" in the thread title, then, are you?

On the other hand, that points out the big difference between "Do *I* need another Retroclone?" and "Do *we* need another Retroclone?" The first is just exercizing a little judgment and restraint ... and that's always a good thing, although it would mean the death of RPGnet. The second is an attempt to get others to join an opinion; it's pretty much implying the unspoken follow-up sentence is "let's get a rope and hang the bastards!" or "let's ride 'em out of town on a rail!"

Quote from: talysman;632041it's pretty much implying the unspoken follow-up sentence is "let's get a rope and hang the bastards!" or "let's ride 'em out of town on a rail!"

Not only is that unspoken, I would say it is often unthought.  There are many reasons to consider the original question.

Need? No. The OGL opened up the floodgates, WOTC may close them to a certain degree with the PDFs and reprints. If the point of the retroclones was to keep out of print games alive, what then the point when the out of print games are back in print?

What we *might* need are retroclones of out of print games, and by that I mean non D&D. DC Heroes (Megs), maybe Silver Age Sentinels, Marvel Saga (Card based) Marvel Universe (Diceless) RPG (see a theme? All supers games. Sure, we have plenty of supers games in print right now but there's little wrong with some of the old ones, bar that they are hard to find). You don't even need to apply the systems to Supers games - just put out the system and have different settings. Minisix showed the way.

Maybe more can be done with the D6 system. Tweaks, changes, speed things up. How about the DC Universe (Legend) game system? That's out there as a PDF, no one does anything with it. Can't have been all that bad - or can it...

Space Opera? I can't access RPGNow at the moment, but how many of the old FGU games are still out there to buy? Which ones were good? If the fluff is copyright and hands off, what about the systems for these games?

What we *do* need is more adventures, settings and collaborative forum based efforts. We are all fairly intelligent, creative and imaginative people I assume. Turn out a line of RPGSite adventures starting with dungeon crawls. Have people post their ideas for a plot and vote. Once decided on, pick a system or make it multi system.

Turn a system to a different genre completely. We've seen the Marvel Faserip game do Conan. I'd like to see a decent take on Tunnels and Trolls with Superheroes. Ken St Andre did one and it was crap. It would not be hard to improve on.

No one is going to make piles of money out of doing this, but I suspect most of us have day jobs anyway. A lot of people must turn out the retroclones and put them on the internet and sit back to say "I did that" with the warm glow inside and knowledge of having started a project, struggled, given up, then finished the damn thing and put it out there. God knows how Blacky finished his Dark Dungeons RC clone, but its one of the most impressive one man efforts in the RPG scene I've ever seen. And yet it barely gets a mention on forums.

Still, no one can take that 'glow' and satisfaction from him... And I have a hardback copy on my desk as I type this, and all I can do is nod in admiration. Sod it. Might have to find time and some players to run this thing.

Just mine!  

But seriously, the reason I've done so little with Dark Passages is that there isn't really a need for it.  It's also why I don't have any additional content for sale.

Now if I had the money to put it out in the market the way I would want it done then I think it'd be worth the bother.  But that would mean I'd have enough money to buy D&D from WotC* and produce boxed adventures with the plastic miniatures and cardboard scenery needed to run them.

Even then I'd move Dark Passages a little further from D&D since the market would follow if I did it right.  

*Which I believe would mean enough money to produce a hot new toy line that would be desirable enough to Hasbro to make the trade.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;631974"Please don't forget me now that AD&D is readily available again!!!  PLEASE!"

Yeah, this.

Quote from: Haffrung;632040The sad thing is, the greatest customized version of D&D ever written could be published online tomorrow and I'll never know. It isn't a popular opinion these days, but one of the values of traditional publishing is keeping the number of products down to a number that the average fan can keep track of and assess.

This is a problem, which IMO is made worse by the decline of professional reviews, or the flood of amateur reviews. Whose opinion do you trust?

But I think we muddle through, and if something is really great, you'll hear about it or be invited into a game of it. We just have be a little more educated and smart about looking to the source--just as, for example, I've learned to discount the hype of RPGnet or Storygames/Forge darlings. (Not ignore entirely, but discount about 95%.)

I think it's also true that you don't need most of the stuff out there as much as you need the time and a group of people to game with. To me, the real pitfall is thinking that getting products is going to improve your gaming. They might but not if you aren't gaming to begin with.

At least that's what I tell myself to avoid adding to the burden of my already-sagging bookshelves.

Quote from: T. Foster;632023On the one hand I wish the community of "folks who play 1E AD&D more-or-less the same way I do" was bigger than it currently is (i.e. more than the dozen or so regular posters at the Knights & Knaves Alehouse), so there were more people I could share ideas with and get valuable feedback from (and, let's be honest, flat out steal stuff from), but OTOH I'm also glad that folks like Raggi are "off doing their own thing" and not trying to shove their square pegs into my community's round hole anymore.

Yeah, that's pretty much my thinking as well at this point.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;632059This is a problem, which IMO is made worse by the decline of professional reviews, or the flood of amateur reviews. Whose opinion do you trust?

The problem is especially acute in a small mutually-supportive scene like the OSR. It's similar to the local band scene in a mid-sized city - all of the musicians feel obliged to support one another by attending each others' shows, out of fear that if their peers don't return the favour nobody will attend.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;632059I think it's also true that you don't need most of the stuff out there as much as you need the time and a group of people to game with. To me, the real pitfall is thinking that getting products is going to improve your gaming. They might but not if you aren't gaming to begin with.

There's the kicker. Downloading your 9th OSR game system doesn't make sense if you own them with the intent to play them. Though of course, buying and learning RPGs is a widespread alternative to actually playing.

I need to publish my retrowhatever because I must sate my vanity.

In the course of appeasing my out of control ego, I hope to provide some cool and interesting bits for other RPGers.

AKA, the reason anyone self-publishes anything.

Quote from: Elliot WilenThis is a problem, which IMO is made worse by the decline of professional reviews, or the flood of amateur reviews. Whose opinion do you trust?

Quote from: Haffrung;632064The problem is especially acute in a small mutually-supportive scene like the OSR. It's similar to the local band scene in a mid-sized city - all of the musicians feel obliged to support one another by attending each others' shows, out of fear that if their peers don't return the favour nobody will attend.

These problems exist, but there is more. There is a selection bias right there in choosing products to review, since people buy things that fall within their field of interest; and after that, in proceeding to review them: reviews are more likely to focus on the narrow range of products the reviewer finds either excellent or (less often) outright horrible. I know I am more motivated to write about something that hits a chord than something that leaves me utterly cold. Tearing down something is not just about favours being returned, but also being more reluctant about tearing down something people do for fun and beer money.

In reality, most adventures I see nowadays from old school people are neither hot nor cold, but a blandish, functional average (other product categories tend to have way worse, but adventures are what I buy). They are not bad in the way a lot of 2e era junk belonged right in a landfill and was actively detrimental for gaming. From that angle, we live in a blessed time because 80% of the small press / blogosphere content would have looked outstanding in 1995. At the same time, reviewing average products needs stamina beyond the ability and willingness to criticise, and right now, only Bryce Lynch has that stamina. Mostly, when I buy something and it turns out to be disappointing, I don't even read them in full, but put them on the shelf and later unload them at a game convention for free takeaway.

Lately, I got interested in checking out RPGNow for adventures that looked interesting, and since the site has a deservedly bad reputation for junk (see the next post), I forced myself to read and review even those that were no good for the common good. Here are the results so far:

• The Maze of Nuromen is a homage to Holmes-era intro adventures, and would play well at the table, especially if you have a table full of new players. At the same time, it is basically an I Can't Believe It's Not Elvis kind of remix, and doesn't add its own twist to the basic B1 formula.
  
• The Hungry Undead was written by Jolly Blackburn, an industry vet, and as I have learned after posting my review, comes from the late 90s. It is a monster lair with very good imagery but almost completely lacking in inventive dungeon encounters which were present in even the weaker TSR and Judges Guild modules.
  
• Bone Hoard of the Dancing Horror suffers from overwriting, but it is imaginative, and shows its origins in actual play. Not outstanding but solid, good fun.
  
• Sepulcher of the Mountain God has interesting ideas marred by a combination of railroading and dungeon roadblocks (which are extremely dangerous when used together).
  
• Assault on the Menace of the Mountain is plain bad from the start, and has nothing to show but boxed text written by H.P. Lovecraft (someone who hated games).

I am comfortable calling the last two modules bad, because that's what they are. Bone Hoard is an obvious case of doing things right. On the other hand, there are many adventures like The Maze of Nuromen and The Hungry Undead (including some of mine), which are guilty of little more than being average. It is much harder to deal with them because they do not have obvious game-breaking flaws, they evidently held up in play, and a lot of people want good, honest meat-and-potatoes support for their games that's just like that. Tearing them down for representing a common taste wouldn't make much sense. At the same time, how much can you say about them?
"It is a lot like the Keep on the Borderlands except the innkeepers have names and the dungeons are different"?
"This time, it is the Mud Giants"?
"An everyday epic quest"?
"It has a lot of emptyish rooms with 3000 cp and 2d6 giant rats in them."?
And then: is that a threat, or a promise?

At the same time, here is a post I wrote about OSR shovelware on RPGNet; the genuinely bottom of the barrel stuff:

My idea of shovelware is more like stuff by Ronin Arts, self-identified as "The publisher responsible for the most PDF products currently being sold at RPGNow." Products which are either the results of a cynical publishing strategy, or the dreadful stuff people trying to earn a living from roleplaying games tend to commit in the throes of existential despair. This describes products such as:

• Humanoid lair, tomb or other mini-dungeon with a handful areas containing elementary area descriptions, monsters and treasure, but lacking imaginative encounters, tactical opportunities or anything above the potential of a random generator. Into the Mite Lair (unsurprisingly, published by Ronin Arts) is a typical example.
  
• List or 100 (50, 30, whatever) things you can use for your campaign but shouldn't, because they are actually totally obvious. See 1000 Street and Road Names,100 Book Titles or 100 More Calamitous Curses (in case the first 100 weren't calamitous enough).
  
• A semi-random collection of new player or GM options, usually restating the more than obvious. In the d20 era, it was new feats and prestige classes; for old school games, new classes or monster races are common, but more annoyingly, there used to be a lot of people republishing random content left out of OSRIC / Labyrinth Lord in case someone really needed an AD&D-to-OSRIC conversion (nobody did). Ratlings and Wildlings looks the part; Ogres in the Olden Lands, with "new and expanded information on ogre magi, ogres, and half-ogres of the Olden Lands", is not much more promising.
  
• Treatises on mundane Wikipedia-level fields of knowledge with a sparkle of fantasy on the top. Metals and Materials, "A detailed summary of Fantasy, Science Fiction and real world metals, alloys and meterials [sic] taken from books, lore and history." and The Book of Harlots, " intended for Game Masters to assist them in running encounters with harlots and their entourage in surburban settings", are equally promising; Gemology - Gemstones in Magic is way too charming to leave out due to its "real magick" thing, so I've put the full product description in a footnote.*
  
• "Publisher resources" like collections of stock art or layout templates. You are either a publisher and don't use these, or you aren't so you shouldn't. Apparently, they still sell.

This is not some absolute indicator of quality. Sometimes there is the odd book of tables which is actually inspired, and I'm sure it is possible to write a good low-level humanoid lair even if I haven't seen any recently. Also, stuff can be genuinely, painfully, passionately bad without being shovelware. But if you look at a lot of the cheaper products on RPGNow, well, there they are.
_______________
*

Quote from: GemologyThe following pages include information gathered from many sources and other books that I have read. Some of the information is from difficult to obtain grimoires and magical practices that were considered of great value in long forgotten places. I have created a kind of Encyclopedia of Gemstones for the modern day Gamesmaster and also added much additional information based upon real lapidary practices. I feel this adds more realism to the game and provides real knowledge to you, the reader. Towards the end of the booklet is information relating to gemstone usage in swords, necklaces, breastplates, rings and general knowledge on gemstones themselves.

I hope that you enjoy reading this as I intend to follow a tradition of publishing informative booklets on many subjects that can relate to the RPG community and provide knowledge, context and insight as well.

Truthfully - The Bronze Dragon

In this case, it's probably better to list the rare outlier and write the rest off as irredeemably bad.