Quote from: VisionStorm on July 28, 2022, 08:16:19 AM

Quote from: Myrdin Potter on July 27, 2022, 01:32:25 PM
In the beginning sections of the book, they give general top level advice how to thoughtfully present the materials in the book, especially since many real world cultures are represented, albeit in fantasy dressings.

The advice is somewhat pandering and annoying to read, but I think it is because it is not aimed at me.

I think it is aimed at two audiences - one the overly concerned people (I guess overly woke would be the shorthand) who are so worried about offense that they need some handholding to encourage them that they can play a non-white character even if they are white (or a black character even if they are Asian, etc.).

I think that the other audience it is aimed at is younger and less mature players. Consider this advice from the book:

"Online and Streamed Games. Just as you don't have to breathe fire in real life to play a dragonborn in D&D, you don't need to be from the cultures that inspired the adventures in this book to play characters from them. However, take care to portray characters as three-dimensional people with relatable desires and fears.

One person's culture isn't another's costume. If you dress up, simple outfits are best. Avoid leaning into stereotypes or clothing with real-world religious significance. Instead, focus on "everyday wear" from the cultures you're exploring. Don't change your skin color, alter your features, or emulate hair styles you wouldn't normally have to appear like a different real-world ethnicity. Similarly, avoid mocking real-world accents in your roleplay."

Now that looks pretty pandering and dumb when aimed at an adult. But think about the 12 year old running a game and streaming to her 5 friends but which could be picked up by anyone. In that context, the advice seems perfectly appropriate. Many of the outrage people seem to forget the 10 year olds and 12 year olds that are playing and do not have the real world experience to understand.

WoTC and the authors are just trying to help them to not make fools of themselves online.

Once I remember that all advice is not aimed at me, mid-50's DM that has been playing for over 40 years and who has twice lived in foreign countries where I was a visible minority, I can see the point of it ...

I have read statements or seen videos using language almost identical to that paragraph before and they weren't directed 12 year olds, but about chastising people with woke messaging. "One person's culture isn't another's costume", for example, is taken from the "Not Your Costume" campaign that started around a decade ago of overly sensitive people complaining about Halloween costumes. This isn't aimed at 12 year olds. It's aimed at everyone and intended to reinforce woke ideals as a cultural norm.

As I said, the message is aimed at the overly woke who in theory would be hesitant to put on a "costume" of another human race to role play and probably children.

The basic message of understand what you are wearing makes sense. It is the steps away from the very reasonable thought to extremes of definition is the problem. That is where the crazy restrictions come from. Not - don't wear the sacred clothing of their religion to don't wear a Chinese looking dress to your prom if you are not Chinese.

So much for "My culture is not a costume", look and wonder at the Gnomebelita from Radiant Citadel.

Wotc : You shouldn't use caricatures to represent other cultures
Also WotC:

(Yes, it is from the Radiant Citadel)

Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 28, 2022, 04:20:30 PM
Wotc : You shouldn't use caricatures to represent other cultures
Also WotC:

(Yes, it is from the Radiant Citadel)

You've got to be fucking kidding me.

Are... are you serious?  I don't think it's possible to get more stereotypical Mexican peasant without the guy carrying a pinata around.

Damn. That's pretty fucking stupid. Did the art department not get the memo?

Meanwhile, the idiots in charge of this product would probably call me a nazi for buying a taco from a white guy.

This is what you get when you hire some gringo danger hair just because said danger hair has the correct ethnic heritage. To the Racists at WotC Race/Ethnicity = Culture. I would rather have a huwhite gringo who knows and respects the culture doing the writting/art. But that probably means I have internalized istophobia.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 28, 2022, 05:10:44 PM
This is what you get when you hire some gringo danger hair just because said danger hair has the correct ethnic heritage. To the Racists at WotC Race/Ethnicity = Culture. I would rather have a huwhite gringo who knows and respects the culture doing the writting/art. But that probably means I have internalized istophobia.

You're implying that the author doesn't actually know Mexican culture. Is that just based on the illustration? The adventure in question is "The Fiend in Hollow Mine" by Mario Ortegón. He says he started playing D&D around 2000 at his home town of Río Bravo in Mexico. Here's a 2018 interview with him about his work on "Una Partida Más", his series on Twitch for Spanish-speaking D&D players:

https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/mario-orteg%C3%B3n-dd-en-espanol

Here's his Youtube channel:

https://www.youtube.com/elwarius

And this is him talking about the adventure:

https://dnd.wizards.com/news/fiend-hollow-mine-mario-ortegon

In the latter, he sounded pleased with the illustrations. The woman NPC you posted looks just like his grandmother, he says.

Quote from: jhkim on July 28, 2022, 08:45:37 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 28, 2022, 05:10:44 PM
This is what you get when you hire some gringo danger hair just because said danger hair has the correct ethnic heritage. To the Racists at WotC Race/Ethnicity = Culture. I would rather have a huwhite gringo who knows and respects the culture doing the writting/art. But that probably means I have internalized istophobia.

You're implying that the author doesn't actually know Mexican culture. Is that just based on the illustration? The adventure in question is "The Fiend in Hollow Mine" by Mario Ortegón. He says he started playing D&D around 2000 at his home town of Río Bravo in Mexico. Here's a 2018 interview with him about his work on "Una Partida Más", his series on Twitch for Spanish-speaking D&D players:

https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/mario-orteg%C3%B3n-dd-en-espanol

Here's his Youtube channel:

https://www.youtube.com/elwarius

And this is him talking about the adventure:

https://dnd.wizards.com/news/fiend-hollow-mine-mario-ortegon

In the latter, he sounded pleased with the illustrations. The woman NPC you posted looks just like his grandmother, he says.

Are you implying the artist knows and respects my culture? Because this is about the art. Or are you being your usual disingenuous twat?

This is also about WotC virtue signaling about stereotypes and then doing nothing but.

I guess you also didn't notice that.

I'm surprized, the artist kissed the author's ass by making the art look like his grandma and the author liked it? Why I've never!

IDGAFF about the art, I'm a fan of Speedy Gonzales, something white progressive gringos got offended in my behalf.

But WotC can say they are against stereotypes and dump the art or they can keep the art and shut their whore mouths. what they can't do is have their cake and eat it too.

If this same art was in a product by a company that's not virtue signaling about how much they are against stereotypes and you as a GM/Player shouldn't portray people of other cultures as such I would even celebrate (if moking that it doesn't fit into pseudo-medieval setting) it.

Now, lets see if for once you can stop being a disingenuous twat and we can have a honest conversation. Can you? I doubt it.

Incidentally, based on the standards set by the art, I guess they are giving permission to go ham on the cheesy Mexican accents.

Quote from: Hzilong on July 28, 2022, 09:45:31 PM
Incidentally, based on the standards set by the art, I guess they are giving permission to go ham on the cheesy Mexican accents.

But only if you got the Speedy Gonzalez route. 

Quote from: jhkim on July 28, 2022, 08:45:37 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 28, 2022, 05:10:44 PM
This is what you get when you hire some gringo danger hair just because said danger hair has the correct ethnic heritage. To the Racists at WotC Race/Ethnicity = Culture. I would rather have a huwhite gringo who knows and respects the culture doing the writting/art. But that probably means I have internalized istophobia.

You're implying that the author doesn't actually know Mexican culture. Is that just based on the illustration? The adventure in question is "The Fiend in Hollow Mine" by Mario Ortegón. He says he started playing D&D around 2000 at his home town of Río Bravo in Mexico. Here's a 2018 interview with him about his work on "Una Partida Más", his series on Twitch for Spanish-speaking D&D players:

https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/mario-orteg%C3%B3n-dd-en-espanol

Here's his Youtube channel:

https://www.youtube.com/elwarius

And this is him talking about the adventure:

https://dnd.wizards.com/news/fiend-hollow-mine-mario-ortegon

In the latter, he sounded pleased with the illustrations. The woman NPC you posted looks just like his grandmother, he says.

Sounds like that guy has internalized racism and needs to be more offended that they let a gnome dress up like his grandma.

He's supposed to say, "Mi abuelita is not a costume! This is not OK!" *wide eyed indignant look with pouty mouth*

Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 28, 2022, 11:31:39 PM

Quote from: Hzilong on July 28, 2022, 09:45:31 PM
Incidentally, based on the standards set by the art, I guess they are giving permission to go ham on the cheesy Mexican accents.

But only if you got the Speedy Gonzalez route. 

Everytime Serapio comes and goes throughout the adventure you're supposed to yell, "Ándele! Ándele! Arriba! Arriba! Vámonos! Yeehaw!"

I always liked Slowpoke Rodriguez though. He may not be as fast as Speedy, but he carries a gun.

In any case, though, that art is astonishing levels of cringe and watching our resident Nork apologist try to cover for it is kind of sad.

That depiction of a Mexican is pretty Archie Bunker.  Shame on WotC.  By the way, great, informative video.