Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 28, 2022, 03:49:23 PM
So much for "My culture is not a costume", look and wonder at the Gnomebelita from Radiant Citadel.

Shouldn't that be gnomebuelitX?  I mean you can't assume its gender.
Is that sword hilt made out of roasted coffee beans?

Quote from: jhkim on July 28, 2022, 08:45:37 PM
You're implying that the author doesn't actually know Mexican culture. Is that just based on the illustration? The adventure in question is "The Fiend in Hollow Mine" by Mario Ortegón. He says he started playing D&D around 2000 at his home town of Río Bravo in Mexico. Here's a 2018 interview with him about his work on "Una Partida Más", his series on Twitch for Spanish-speaking D&D players:

https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/mario-orteg%C3%B3n-dd-en-espanol

Here's his Youtube channel:

https://www.youtube.com/elwarius

And this is him talking about the adventure:

https://dnd.wizards.com/news/fiend-hollow-mine-mario-ortegon

In the latter, he sounded pleased with the illustrations. The woman NPC you posted looks just like his grandmother, he says.

EVERY game borrows from real culture. However, only publishers like WotC are sanctimonious dickheads about it.

If they had limited their editorial to "here's a bunch of adventures written by people inspired by their own cultures," that would be fine by me.

But they couldn't fucking help themselves to morally grandstand about "culture is not a costume" and funny accents. They are trying to monopolize authority on the subject: "Only we are sensitive enough to provide culturally inspired RPG materials."

It's just the icing on the cake that the art looks like the very cultural caricatures they apparently wanted to warn us about.

Quote from: DocJones on July 29, 2022, 10:12:08 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 28, 2022, 03:49:23 PM
So much for "My culture is not a costume", look and wonder at the Gnomebelita from Radiant Citadel.

Shouldn't that be gnomebuelitX?  I mean you can't assume its gender.
Is that sword hilt made out of roasted coffee beans?

It's either a real scorpion tail or made to look like one.

Quote from: VisionStorm on July 29, 2022, 01:02:32 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 28, 2022, 11:31:39 PM

Quote from: Hzilong on July 28, 2022, 09:45:31 PM
Incidentally, based on the standards set by the art, I guess they are giving permission to go ham on the cheesy Mexican accents.

But only if you got the Speedy Gonzalez route. 

Everytime Serapio comes and goes throughout the adventure you're supposed to yell, "Ándele! Ándele! Arriba! Arriba! Vámonos! Yeehaw!"

And play one of these as background, best if it's the first one.

This is the bizarre hypocrisy of woke companies - they want to stress non-white settings and characters, but gatekeep by forbidding white gamers to engage with this material at all. It's like the role-playing element is lost if you're only supposed to play your own gender, culture and ethnicity.  (But presumably the reverse isn't true because Western culture is some kind of baseline that everyone can freely plunder?)

I actually love history, culture and mythology from any and all of the world's nations. Almost all RPG settings have some element of fantasy real-world cultures and its' nice to have these contrasts.

We actually got Radiant Citadel between us, and it's... okay, I guess. The usual WotC low-effort product you'd expect in 2022. It's a little too utopian for my tastes, but you could always change it to include meaningful conflict with a little effort. It's a poor man's Sigil, yes, but honestly I never liked the 90's doomer dystopia of that setting anyway. Both Sigil and it's 2022 non-union Mexican equivalent actually have the same problem, in that the characters don't have much agency and they can't actually make changes to the setting.

The whole Radiant Citadel shtick is a just a thin excuse for stringing 13 short adventures together, all of which are in different settings and vary from decent to 'meh'. It's not the wokepocalypse I was expecting, there's not monsters based on Evil White People enslaving the virtuous natives. There's an evil corporation sure, but that's aided and abetted by one of the local tribes so it's not like the natives are all blameless. You can make decisions that hurt the locals on several occasions, but they just won't like you for it, as you'd expect.

There's surprisingly little about the actual cultures here, which is in keeping with WotC's disinterest in its settings. I'd have much preferred this to be a sourcebook with more detail on these cultures, including backgrounds that tie in to their cultural practises, making it easier to do what they supposedly want and role-play these cultures accurately. Plus, some equipment would have been nice, unless I want my Thai river warrior to walk around in platemail with a longsword from the Middle Ages. Why no magic items that are appropriate to the cultures, etc? 

As it is, it's *okay*, but it feels like empty virtue signalling, the usual exercise in 'look at how woke we are!' rather than producing an interesting product.

Our group had a bunch of discussions about what we would do to improve it as a viable setting, most of which revolved around having some meaningful conflict between the various cultures, especially among the young. We also had the idea of making somethng like Mystara's Hollow World, where all these cultures were microcosms preserved from nations that were destroyed or on the brink of collapsing, a kind of experiment or breeding program by some gods.   

I think it's possible to make use of this material in an interesting way, but you're really doing all the work yourself at that point, and borrowing from superior works on non-European cultures, of which there are many.   

This is hardly surprising. They did exactly the same thing with their kung fu adventure after slapping warnings on all their old Oriental Adventures content. They are masters of hypocrisy.

Don't you get it Geekybugle? It's totally ok for LEFTISTS to make stereotypes about Mexicans, and call them "breakfast tacos", because they are the pure and virtuous. Like the "Perfecti" of the Cathar Heresy, they can do no wrong.

But if you do it, you have internalized racism. If I did it, I'm not a real Latino. And if someone non-leftist who's not Mexican does it, they're a Klansman.

The EXACT SAME DRAWING is either racist or not racist based on a combination of Magic Blood and Correct Political Worship. 

Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 28, 2022, 09:34:36 PM
If this same art was in a product by a company that's not virtue signaling about how much they are against stereotypes and you as a GM/Player shouldn't portray people of other cultures as such I would even celebrate (if moking that it doesn't fit into pseudo-medieval setting) it.

Now, lets see if for once you can stop being a disingenuous twat and we can have a honest conversation. Can you? I doubt it.

Dont worry.

Wither the current iteration or the 2030 iteration of this mental disease will point at that art and declare it wacist! and insert-your-deity-here only kknows what else.

Quote from: Valatar on July 28, 2022, 04:25:34 PM
Are... are you serious?  I don't think it's possible to get more stereotypical Mexican peasant without the guy carrying a pinata around.

Its disgustingly racist. Moreso because of course its being touted as "inclusive".

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 29, 2022, 06:16:35 PM
Don't you get it Geekybugle? It's totally ok for LEFTISTS to make stereotypes about Mexicans, and call them "breakfast tacos", because they are the pure and virtuous. Like the "Perfecti" of the Cathar Heresy, they can do no wrong.

But if you do it, you have internalized racism. If I did it, I'm not a real Latino. And if someone non-leftist who's not Mexican does it, they're a Klansman.

The EXACT SAME DRAWING is either racist or not racist based on a combination of Magic Blood and Correct Political Worship.

Lets not forget that Hispanic people are only a minority when it is convenient. And then they arent.

Quote from: Continental on July 29, 2022, 12:47:20 PM
We actually got Radiant Citadel between us, and it's... okay, I guess. The usual WotC low-effort product you'd expect in 2022. It's a little too utopian for my tastes, but you could always change it to include meaningful conflict with a little effort. It's a poor man's Sigil, yes, but honestly I never liked the 90's doomer dystopia of that setting anyway. Both Sigil and it's 2022 non-union Mexican equivalent actually have the same problem, in that the characters don't have much agency and they can't actually make changes to the setting.

The whole Radiant Citadel shtick is a just a thin excuse for stringing 13 short adventures together, all of which are in different settings and vary from decent to 'meh'. It's not the wokepocalypse I was expecting, there's not monsters based on Evil White People enslaving the virtuous natives. There's an evil corporation sure, but that's aided and abetted by one of the local tribes so it's not like the natives are all blameless. You can make decisions that hurt the locals on several occasions, but they just won't like you for it, as you'd expect.

I agree with the latter. The Radiant Citadel mini-setting is supposed to be an excuse to string the adventures and their mini-settings together, but I don't think it works very well for that purpose. I'd be tempted to replace it with something completely different rather than adapting it - like a dimension-hopping item or curse.

The meat of the book is the 13 scenarios and mini-settings. Overall, I feel like there's a lot more of interest here than in the earlier 5E hardcover adventures like Horde of the Dragon Queen or Out of the Abyss. Did you like those earlier adventures? I found them mediocre at best. Yes, all 13 of these scenarios are short and the settings are only briefly covered - but that's the concept of a lot of dimension-hopping adventures. I haven't finished going over them, but I notably like "Written in Blood" as a horror scenario, and "Shadow of the Sun" as political/religious intrigue.

Quote from: Continental on July 29, 2022, 12:47:20 PM
Our group had a bunch of discussions about what we would do to improve it as a viable setting, most of which revolved around having some meaningful conflict between the various cultures, especially among the young. We also had the idea of making somethng like Mystara's Hollow World, where all these cultures were microcosms preserved from nations that were destroyed or on the brink of collapsing, a kind of experiment or breeding program by some gods.   

I think it's possible to make use of this material in an interesting way, but you're really doing all the work yourself at that point, and borrowing from superior works on non-European cultures, of which there are many.

I think a dimension-jumping or globe-jumping wrapper story would work better with the adventures. Having the civilizations interacting directly adds a lot of complication, and I'm not sure of the payoff.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 28, 2022, 09:34:36 PM
IDGAFF about the art, I'm a fan of Speedy Gonzales, something white progressive gringos got offended in my behalf.
...
If this same art was in a product by a company that's not virtue signaling about how much they are against stereotypes and you as a GM/Player shouldn't portray people of other cultures as such I would even celebrate (if moking that it doesn't fit into pseudo-medieval setting) it.

It sounds like to you, the important thing is what politics the company espouses - not the content of the adventure.

For me, I'm mostly interested in content for playing games with my friends. The art matters slightly, as I'll probably hold up the book and cover the text to show them a picture of an NPC, but it's not a big deal.

I find stereotypes are very useful for conveying concepts quickly in a game, so I'll tend to incorporate stereotypes in my own games. However, that doesn't mean making all of a given culture stereotypical. When I ran my Dragons of the Yellow Sea campaign, for example, I had a number of NPCs who fit typical Korean stereotypes - but also many NPCs who didn't - often fitting other stereotypes. For me, an important thing is mixing things up - so while some aspects use stereotypes, that isn't the whole or a reliable guide.

Going back to the stereotypes in the art here, others commented:

Quote from: Omega on July 29, 2022, 07:20:27 PM

Quote from: Valatar on July 28, 2022, 04:25:34 PM
Are... are you serious?  I don't think it's possible to get more stereotypical Mexican peasant without the guy carrying a pinata around.

Its disgustingly racist. Moreso because of course its being touted as "inclusive".

I don't feel that, particularly from the adventure in context. I note that GeekyBugle says he would celebrate the same art if it was in a product from a different company.

Quote from: jhkim on July 29, 2022, 09:40:34 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 28, 2022, 09:34:36 PM
IDGAFF about the art, I'm a fan of Speedy Gonzales, something white progressive gringos got offended in my behalf.
...
If this same art was in a product by a company that's not virtue signaling about how much they are against stereotypes and you as a GM/Player shouldn't portray people of other cultures as such I would even celebrate (if moking that it doesn't fit into pseudo-medieval setting) it.

It sounds like to you, the important thing is what politics the company espouses - not the content of the adventure.

For me, I'm mostly interested in content for playing games with my friends. The art matters slightly, as I'll probably hold up the book and cover the text to show them a picture of an NPC, but it's not a big deal.

I find stereotypes are very useful for conveying concepts quickly in a game, so I'll tend to incorporate stereotypes in my own games. However, that doesn't mean making all of a given culture stereotypical. When I ran my Dragons of the Yellow Sea campaign, for example, I had a number of NPCs who fit typical Korean stereotypes - but also many NPCs who didn't - often fitting other stereotypes. For me, an important thing is mixing things up - so while some aspects use stereotypes, that isn't the whole or a reliable guide.

Going back to the stereotypes in the art here, others commented:

Quote from: Omega on July 29, 2022, 07:20:27 PM

Quote from: Valatar on July 28, 2022, 04:25:34 PM
Are... are you serious?  I don't think it's possible to get more stereotypical Mexican peasant without the guy carrying a pinata around.

Its disgustingly racist. Moreso because of course its being touted as "inclusive".

I don't feel that, particularly from the adventure in context. I note that GeekyBugle says he would celebrate the same art if it was in a product from a different company.

The problem here is the hypocrisy and browbeating we have to endure from WotC telling us not to engage in stereotypes and all the "my culture is not a costume" whining, only to turn around and create stereotypical AF art. It's almost like stereotypes sometimes help in conveying a particular culture.

If WotC and the political side they've aligned themselves with didn't go around scolding people for this stuff and pretending that everything is culturally insensitive and racist, and they've got to call it ALL out, no one would've noticed or cared. But since they did, their art sticks out like a fart in an elevator.

Quote from: VisionStorm on July 29, 2022, 10:25:31 PM
The problem here is the hypocrisy and browbeating we have to endure from WotC telling us not to engage in stereotypes and all the "my culture is not a costume" whining, only to turn around and create stereotypical AF art. It's almost like stereotypes sometimes help in conveying a particular culture.

If WotC and the political side they've aligned themselves with didn't go around scolding people for this stuff and pretending that everything is culturally insensitive and racist, and they've got to call it ALL out, no one would've noticed or cared. But since they did, their art sticks out like a fart in an elevator.

In this case, though, it is posters here who are scolding about how art is racist and insensitive. If we were talking about a case where WotC was scolding someone about other art being racist and insensitive, then I'd be judging that.

But regardless of who does it, I try to have a consistent opinion. I won't flip my opinion of stereotypes and/or art based on the politics of the producer. I agree that stereotypes can be helpful in conveying culture, but they can also misrepresent it.

In the case of the two pictures from "The Fiend of Hollow Mine", I didn't find them racist. They're stereotypical, but I don't see that they misrepresent Mexican culture. GeekyBugle says that if they were made by another company he would be celebrating them.

Quote from: Omega on July 29, 2022, 07:26:08 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 29, 2022, 06:16:35 PM
Don't you get it Geekybugle? It's totally ok for LEFTISTS to make stereotypes about Mexicans, and call them "breakfast tacos", because they are the pure and virtuous. Like the "Perfecti" of the Cathar Heresy, they can do no wrong.

But if you do it, you have internalized racism. If I did it, I'm not a real Latino. And if someone non-leftist who's not Mexican does it, they're a Klansman.

The EXACT SAME DRAWING is either racist or not racist based on a combination of Magic Blood and Correct Political Worship.

Lets not forget that Hispanic people are only a minority when it is convenient. And then they arent.

It's what I termed "Schrodinger's White". Any given person of Latino descent is a "person of color" when it is convenient to the Left, and an Evil White Man when it's convenient to the Left.