Alright, thank you both.

Quote from: Punch and Pie on March 01, 2023, 02:41:58 AM
There's two Dark Sun titles on Drivethru, "Dark Sun Boxed Set (2e)" https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17169/Dark-Sun-Boxed-Set-2e and "Dark Sun Campaign Setting (Expanded and Revised Edition) (2e)" https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17203/Dark-Sun-Campaign-Setting-Expanded-and-Revised-Edition-2e.

I've not read any Dark Sun material. Which version is the 'definitive' version to get? Given WOTC's capricious nature, all their 'problematic' titles could be pulled anytime, so I might as well get them while I can.

Pretty much...

Quote from: S'mon on March 01, 2023, 03:19:55 AM

Quote from: Punch and Pie on March 01, 2023, 02:41:58 AM
snip

Dark Sun was notorious for getting worse over time as it followed the novels, so earlier the better, even more than Forgotten Realms.

...this^, and...

Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 01, 2023, 05:43:24 AM

Quote from: Punch and Pie on March 01, 2023, 02:41:58 AM
snip

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17169/Dark-Sun-Boxed-Set-2e is the original version of the setting. The expansion Dragon Kings

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17183/Dragon-Kings-2e

is not necessary, but neat in understanding why there's only one Dragon in Tyr, and expands the game to 30th level.

The "Expanded and Revised" edition updated the metaplot with details from the novels. And arguably killed Dark Sun as a setting. Do not reccomend.

...this^

Might also recommend stuff like the Complete Gladiator's Handbook, Veiled Alliance, Elves of Athas and Dune Trader, but none of them are really necessary (mostly extra background fluff, except for the Gladiator's book, which has a bit more crunch), other than the OG boxed set.

I think they might've done some changes to Psionics by the Expanded & Revised version, which may or may not have been more playable, but it's been ages since I play them, so don't recall (Psionics in general always sucked, though).

darksun is problematic because even if you find water you don't know how to swim.

The only thing problematic with Dark Sun is the Halfling Blue Age/Green Age crap. I'll never run it, but if I did I'd excise that stuff out for sure.

I am sorry I should have read the full page thread before posting

Funny how Dark Sun is problematic, yet WOTC is selling it in print and .pdf on DriveThruRPG.

Things that make you go hmmm...

Shitlibs gonna bedshit

Quote from: Punch and Pie on March 01, 2023, 02:41:58 AM
I've not read any Dark Sun material. Which version is the 'definitive' version to get? Given WOTC's capricious nature, all their 'problematic' titles could be pulled anytime, so I might as well get them while I can.

The Original Box Set is great and more than enough, but it's still 2e, with its goods and bads. If you are down to check it out, I made a full OSR conversion to Old School Essentials for the whole setting.

Genre Rules: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZgTRsZFsWSqrv2KYU2dx4XSJei6LfIuD/view?usp=sharing
DMG: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1g4W5Qmix1h4Eur_Q5DzC5strXOyEMqlc/view?usp=sharing
Psionics: https://drive.google.com/file/d/10GYk4NU1D8va9VjAvyZh7-10GaHuYG2b/view?usp=sharing
Monsters: https://drive.google.com/file/d/11Uvu3cpXbPZ4VRMTpk5NQt2Dmh-S5KT_/view?usp=sharing

Quote from: Mistwell on February 28, 2023, 12:20:51 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 27, 2023, 08:28:14 AM
Kyle Brink, who recently said "white guy" D&D gamers "can't leave soon enough for this hobby",

Kyle didn't say that. He was referencing his unit at D&D of about 7 executives, not "D&D gamers."

And I know you knew that. We already had the discussion, which you saw and commented on. So this is you willfully lying and not just being mistaken.

People can make conjectures about it of course, but put quotes around it like you just did as if he literally said white guy D&D gamers (the gamers - not the designers) can't leave soon enough for this hobby. That's you lying. It's not a fine distinction, it's not word play, it's not being pedantic, that's you actually directly lying for clicks.

Which makes you no better than they guys you're supposedly fighting, when you resort to lying about what they said to make money from clicks.

Yes, we did cover this before. You're the one willfully lying.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 28, 2023, 06:04:05 PM

Quote from: THE_Leopold on February 28, 2023, 08:37:11 AM
Is there an alternative product that keeps to the spirit of Dark Sun that can be used in it's stead?

RPG Pundit's own World of the Last Sun supposedly has a bit in the setting that's very Dark Sun-ish. 

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/336819/RPGPundit-Presents-World-of-the-Last-Sun?cPath=126_28809

Yes, The Shithole. It's not dark sun, but it is my take on a "fantasy apocalyptic badlands" setting, complete with lots of random generators for locations, encounters, local tribes, monsters and more.

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 01, 2023, 09:48:33 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on February 28, 2023, 12:20:51 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 27, 2023, 08:28:14 AM
Kyle Brink, who recently said "white guy" D&D gamers "can't leave soon enough for this hobby",

Kyle didn't say that. He was referencing his unit at D&D of about 7 executives, not "D&D gamers."

And I know you knew that. We already had the discussion, which you saw and commented on. So this is you willfully lying and not just being mistaken.

People can make conjectures about it of course, but put quotes around it like you just did as if he literally said white guy D&D gamers (the gamers - not the designers) can't leave soon enough for this hobby. That's you lying. It's not a fine distinction, it's not word play, it's not being pedantic, that's you actually directly lying for clicks.

Which makes you no better than they guys you're supposedly fighting, when you resort to lying about what they said to make money from clicks.

Yes, we did cover this before. You're the one willfully lying.

Well sure, if you're going to trust your lying eyes and ears you'll get lots of Wrong-Think. Safer to parrot the party line.

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 01, 2023, 09:48:33 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on February 28, 2023, 12:20:51 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 27, 2023, 08:28:14 AM
Kyle Brink, who recently said "white guy" D&D gamers "can't leave soon enough for this hobby",

Kyle didn't say that. He was referencing his unit at D&D of about 7 executives, not "D&D gamers."

And I know you knew that. We already had the discussion, which you saw and commented on. So this is you willfully lying and not just being mistaken.

People can make conjectures about it of course, but put quotes around it like you just did as if he literally said white guy D&D gamers (the gamers - not the designers) can't leave soon enough for this hobby. That's you lying. It's not a fine distinction, it's not word play, it's not being pedantic, that's you actually directly lying for clicks.

Which makes you no better than they guys you're supposedly fighting, when you resort to lying about what they said to make money from clicks.

Yes, we did cover this before. You're the one willfully lying.

Thanks for this.  So what they are saying is that my white kids who game with me
In our basement should shove off?

Fuck WOTC for good.  I was a good whale and bough lots of their stuff.  Way to tell me and my KIDS to fuck off.  Well done. 

Quote from: Grognard GM on March 01, 2023, 04:01:13 PM
The only thing problematic with Dark Sun is the Halfling Blue Age/Green Age crap. I'll never run it, but if I did I'd excise that stuff out for sure.

I do. My general back/forestory for Dark Sun runs a little something like this. It follows some of the official lore, but tweaks stuff I don't like.

The Blue Age was like Pirates of Dark Water. Athas is a water world with lots of islands and small continents. The Pyreen are the dominant race, but not the only one.
The Green Age is like most typical D&D settings. Gods, wizards, etc. Rajat, who is a Pyreen in my version*, discovers/invents defiling as a way to get more power and dominate the other races.
The Red Age and Desert age pretty much follow the existing lore.
After Kalaks' death, I ignore all the novels and metaplot changes to the setting. The world is what the PC's make of it.
After the Desert Age comes the Twilight Age. Athas' sun dims to a dark purple. Magic and life become even more scarce. Mutation and disease are rampant. The first and last Avangion creates a magic portal to take the last few hundred survivors to a new world, and Athas slowly dies and crumbles to dust.

*Eh. Rajat is a Pyreen in the official lore as well. NM that.

Quote from: Lixuniverse on March 01, 2023, 09:27:35 PM

Quote from: Punch and Pie on March 01, 2023, 02:41:58 AM
I've not read any Dark Sun material. Which version is the 'definitive' version to get? Given WOTC's capricious nature, all their 'problematic' titles could be pulled anytime, so I might as well get them while I can.

The Original Box Set is great and more than enough, but it's still 2e, with its goods and bads. If you are down to check it out, I made a full OSR conversion to Old School Essentials for the whole setting.

Genre Rules: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZgTRsZFsWSqrv2KYU2dx4XSJei6LfIuD/view?usp=sharing
DMG: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1g4W5Qmix1h4Eur_Q5DzC5strXOyEMqlc/view?usp=sharing
Psionics: https://drive.google.com/file/d/10GYk4NU1D8va9VjAvyZh7-10GaHuYG2b/view?usp=sharing
Monsters: https://drive.google.com/file/d/11Uvu3cpXbPZ4VRMTpk5NQt2Dmh-S5KT_/view?usp=sharing

Nice! Thanks for sharing this.

And welcome to the site!

Quote from: Lixuniverse on March 01, 2023, 09:27:35 PM

The Original Box Set is great and more than enough, but it's still 2e, with its goods and bads. If you are down to check it out, I made a full OSR conversion to Old School Essentials for the whole setting.

Genre Rules: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZgTRsZFsWSqrv2KYU2dx4XSJei6LfIuD/view?usp=sharing
DMG: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1g4W5Qmix1h4Eur_Q5DzC5strXOyEMqlc/view?usp=sharing
Psionics: https://drive.google.com/file/d/10GYk4NU1D8va9VjAvyZh7-10GaHuYG2b/view?usp=sharing
Monsters: https://drive.google.com/file/d/11Uvu3cpXbPZ4VRMTpk5NQt2Dmh-S5KT_/view?usp=sharing

I just looked these over and they are great.  Thanks for sharing them