Kyle Brink, who recently said "white guy" D&D gamers "can't leave soon enough for this hobby", has now declared that WoTC won't do a new Dark Sun book because it's "problematic".
#dnd #ttrpg #osr
Kyle Brink should be covered in BBQ sauce, and left in the Halfling rainforest.
He didn't say why it was problematic. He didn't elaborate on the statement.
D&D 5e didn't do a full set of Psionics rules that got the official stamp. All they have done has been half-efforts at best.
People who say "problematic" usually mean "bad." But that sounds silly and childish, so they use a word with 4 syllables to make it sound grave and serious.
I want settings that are problematic in the true meaning of the word. That's an interesting setting and the players will have lots to do!
Quote from: Darrin Kelley on February 27, 2023, 08:52:19 AM
He didn't say why it was problematic. He didn't elaborate on the statement.
We all know what he means...he probably also hates Huckleberry Finn for the same reasons, but I am sure he'd push for grade school drag shows.
Also does this even really matter at this point? WotC has jumped the shark. They're going to keep pushing this dumbass narrative to try to capture a segment of the market that spends hours a day complaining on Twitter but has zero dollars to spend on product. Alienate the real market some more...it's just corporate suicide.
They are not going to touch Dark Sun? GOOD! GREAT!
They still have their sights set on other stuff like Planescape though. That will probably be a complete fuck up.
On the bright side, this is gonna provide opportunities for competitors.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley on February 27, 2023, 08:52:19 AM
He didn't say why it was problematic. He didn't elaborate on the statement.
D&D 5e didn't do a full set of Psionics rules that got the official stamp. All they have done has been half-efforts at best.
Not hard to figure IMHO:
It's the pervasive Slavery, and various 'depictions' of the races in Dark Sun.
WotC has reached the point that they fear groups might
play the game wrong if they have such elements in a setting...
i.e. We can't have pervasive slavery because someone in some group somewhere may engage in the setting's slave trade: A
(Insert minority/POC group here) might stumble across that, and declare everything D&D to be racist bigotry!!!
Similar to Vincent Baker's reasoning on why he pulled his RPG Dog's in the Vinyard:
"Westerns can go to hell, Utah history can go to hell, and unless I can extricate Dogs from that, it can go to hell too"...
Everything is problematic.
Quote from: Omega on February 27, 2023, 12:47:53 PM
They are not going to touch Dark Sun? GOOD! GREAT!
Yeah, I'm not seeing a downside here.
"Problematic" is just the word people use when they don't like something, but they can't make a substantive criticism.
Quote from: rytrasmi on February 27, 2023, 09:59:15 AM
People who say "problematic" usually mean "bad." But that sounds silly and childish, so they use a word with 4 syllables to make it sound grave and serious.
I want settings that are problematic in the true meaning of the word. That's an interesting setting and the players will have lots to do!
Greetings!
*Laughing* So true, Rytrasmi! "so they use a word with 4 syllables to make it sound grave and serious." *Howling* You know that's right, man! All their jerking language and words around. They are sickening. It's also a reflection of their pretentiousness and love for making themselves seem oh so intellectual and deep. And they get *excited* over themselves being "superior" to all of the unwashed masses. I saw all of this same kind of pseudo-intellectual circle-jerking and posing from the Libtard kids at my university. It's also promoted and precisely taught to them by the Libtard professors. They always prattle on about how "educated" and "intellectual" they are--and how "Uneducated" the filthy, ignorant, unwashed masses are. Especially those who are *Conservative*.
WOTC and this jackass Blink guy everytime they even open their mouths anymore--it's just more of this Woke, Libtard diarrhea. I know exactly how these morons work, how they believe, and think. I had to endure this stupid kind of insanity through several required classes while I was at my university. (And yes. My fights with these students--and the Libtard professors involved--was constant, and epic. On the advice of my thankfully strong and Conservative professors--I eventually resigned myself to getting by in these classes with a C or a B grade, punching my ticket, and moving on.) The fact that I routinely did *A* work was irrelevant. My good professors explained to me that realistically, my choices were to do the work, knowing the Liberal professors were going to stab me with lesser grades; don't do the work, fight more loudly, and potentially get a D or F for the course, or withdraw from the course entirely. Withdrawing was simply impossible, per requirements, and to keep my GPA up, getting a D or F wouldn't work either, so yeah, I had to suffer. I hated every minute being in these kinds of classes though.
I'm glad though that WOTC won't be touching Dark Sun. As others have mentioned, can you just imagine what morons like Jeremy Crawford and the rest of these *Invasion of the Body Snatchers* pod people would do to the campaign setting? (Cue the brilliant Donald Sutherland into view). ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: RPGPundit on February 27, 2023, 08:28:14 AM
Kyle Brink, who recently said "white guy" D&D gamers "can't leave soon enough for this hobby",
Kyle didn't say that. He was referencing his unit at D&D of about 7 executives, not "D&D gamers."
And I know you knew that. We already had the discussion, which you saw and commented on. So this is you willfully lying and not just being mistaken.
People can make conjectures about it of course, but put quotes around it like you just did as if he literally said white guy D&D gamers (the gamers - not the designers) can't leave soon enough for this hobby. That's you lying. It's not a fine distinction, it's not word play, it's not being pedantic, that's you actually directly lying for clicks.
Which makes you no better than they guys you're supposedly fighting, when you resort to lying about what they said to make money from clicks.
Quote from: Omega on February 27, 2023, 12:47:53 PM
GOOD! GREAT!
Yep. All things considered, this is probably a good thing for all.
Quote from: Mistwell on February 28, 2023, 12:20:51 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on February 27, 2023, 08:28:14 AM
Kyle Brink, who recently said "white guy" D&D gamers "can't leave soon enough for this hobby",
Kyle didn't say that. He was referencing his unit at D&D of about 7 executives, not "D&D gamers."
And I know you knew that. We already had the discussion, which you saw and commented on. So this is you willfully lying and not just being mistaken.
People can make conjectures about it of course, but put quotes around it like you just did as if he literally said white guy D&D gamers (the gamers - not the designers) can't leave soon enough for this hobby. That's you lying. It's not a fine distinction, it's not word play, it's not being pedantic, that's you actually directly lying for clicks.
Which makes you no better than they guys you're supposedly fighting, when you resort to lying about what they said to make money from clicks.
Greetings!
*Laughing* Mistwell, come on, man. Put down the Kool Aid. There are literally DOZENS of videos talking about all of this BS from WOTC and Blink. Tenkar's Tavern, Clownfish, on and on. I stopped watching after about half a dozen or so. ALL of them essentially agree with PUNDIT.
To hear you talk, by implication, all of them are lying jackasses and frauds, Blink is innocent, WOTC blows rainbow sparkles out their asses, and Pundit and ALL THE MANY MANY OTHER creators and commentators are all a bunch of lying grifters gulping for "Clicks".
I've seen the quotes. Over and over and over. I don't care if WOTC or Blink was talking about the "entire hobby", or just designers. It's all racist, Woke BS.
Sorry, Mistwell. Put the Kool Aid down, man.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I prefer the original Dark Sun overall, but the 4e Dark Sun books were surprisingly good and looked quite fun. Shame I never got to run it.
Quote from: Spinachcat on February 28, 2023, 04:28:35 AM
I prefer the original Dark Sun overall, but the 4e Dark Sun books were surprisingly good and looked quite fun. Shame I never got to run it.
I had fun DMing 4th ed Dark Sun. The version benefited from a lot of the clunkiness of 4e getting worked out by then.
I prefer 2nd ed Dark Sun, of course, but 4th ed was a decent version.
Problematic is the best word EVER for lefty shitbags. They can toss it out there and let their lefty pals figure out all the problems and use all their bandwidth on that, because most of them would be so concerned they dont know the "main problem" they would just keep coming up with "problems" till they get all their tribe to nod in agreement. Load of horse shit. I do like we still have people wanting to run interference for that shit bag though...."He really really meant only THIS guys!!!" Swap out a few words and those same people would be lighting torches.
Is there an alternative product that keeps to the spirit of Dark Sun that can be used in it's stead?
I am in the process of writing a setting for use in my D&D game so I don't have to use their crap vanilla setting.
I hadn't thought about adding a region where there was slavery until now. Now I am thinking about it to give my players to fight against.
Come for my setting WOTC. I DARE YOU
Quote from: Mistwell on February 28, 2023, 12:20:51 AM
Kyle didn't say that. He was referencing his unit at D&D of about 7 executives, not "D&D gamers."
And I know you knew that. We already had the discussion, which you saw and commented on. So this is you willfully lying and not just being mistaken.
People can make conjectures about it of course, but put quotes around it like you just did as if he literally said white guy D&D gamers (the gamers - not the designers) can't leave soon enough for this hobby. That's you lying. It's not a fine distinction, it's not word play, it's not being pedantic, that's you actually directly lying for clicks.
Which makes you no better than they guys you're supposedly fighting, when you resort to lying about what they said to make money from clicks.
How much are they paying you to post this fucking nonsense?
Quote from: Brad on February 28, 2023, 10:28:47 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on February 28, 2023, 12:20:51 AM
Kyle didn't say that. He was referencing his unit at D&D of about 7 executives, not "D&D gamers."
And I know you knew that. We already had the discussion, which you saw and commented on. So this is you willfully lying and not just being mistaken.
People can make conjectures about it of course, but put quotes around it like you just did as if he literally said white guy D&D gamers (the gamers - not the designers) can't leave soon enough for this hobby. That's you lying. It's not a fine distinction, it's not word play, it's not being pedantic, that's you actually directly lying for clicks.
Which makes you no better than they guys you're supposedly fighting, when you resort to lying about what they said to make money from clicks.
How much are they paying you to post this fucking nonsense?
Mistwell has been a lying leftist White Knight since before Gamergate. He has huffed so much lefty paint that it has permanently altered his DNA.
Quote from: THE_Leopold on February 28, 2023, 08:37:11 AM
Is there an alternative product that keeps to the spirit of Dark Sun that can be used in it's stead?
RPG Pundit's own World of the Last Sun supposedly has a bit in the setting that's very Dark Sun-ish.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/336819/RPGPundit-Presents-World-of-the-Last-Sun?cPath=126_28809 (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/336819/RPGPundit-Presents-World-of-the-Last-Sun?cPath=126_28809)
Quote from: Brad on February 28, 2023, 10:28:47 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on February 28, 2023, 12:20:51 AM
Kyle didn't say that. He was referencing his unit at D&D of about 7 executives, not "D&D gamers."
And I know you knew that. We already had the discussion, which you saw and commented on. So this is you willfully lying and not just being mistaken.
People can make conjectures about it of course, but put quotes around it like you just did as if he literally said white guy D&D gamers (the gamers - not the designers) can't leave soon enough for this hobby. That's you lying. It's not a fine distinction, it's not word play, it's not being pedantic, that's you actually directly lying for clicks.
Which makes you no better than they guys you're supposedly fighting, when you resort to lying about what they said to make money from clicks.
How much are they paying you to post this fucking nonsense?
Greetings!
*LAUGHING* So funny, Brad! It' weird how Mistwell always somehow does these white-knighting antics defending WOTC, isn't it? Over and over again, WOTC makes terrible modules, game books, or has PR dumpster fires--and every time, Mistwell is waving his flag and defending them.
I think Mistwell needs to go to a proper struggle session,-- for being on the "Wrong Side of History." ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Good vid pundit. I agree, I don't know why people keep giving WotC money and expect things to be different.
Be happy WotC isn't going to redo Dark Sun.
There really does not need to be an official new release of the setting.
WotC does not have one single good designer on staff or work for hire. They are all simply diversity hires. They can't design.
Quote from: THE_Leopold on February 28, 2023, 08:37:11 AMIs there an alternative product that keeps to the spirit of Dark Sun that can be used in it's stead?
I've been working on my own version of Dark Sun for a few years, but I am more focused on "desert dungeons" than the slavery/freedom/survival aspects of the original.
I do have slavers and slaves...the Undead. Guess who keeps working, never revolts and doesn't ever need water?
If you googlefu Dark Sun, you'll find a metric ton of fanmade stuff and lots of it is quite good. It would not be rocket science to cull the web, revamp the TSR books and then produce an interesting OGL version.
EDIT: But really, if anyone wants to play Dark Sun, the original TSR stuff is so great and 90% ready to rock for any OSR or 5e game.
Yeah, Dark Sun is kinda WAITAMINNIT :o :o :o
1. Drow are in the Dumb & Dumber 5e Monster Manual
2. Drow are in that tome described as capturing humans from Disneyland and taking them home for some delicious torture-porn & Netflix
But Gnome-eating Halflings are a problem? Can I go next:
"WoTC exec blasts Al-Qadim setting as racist and offensive to Taliban soldiers!"
"WoTC exec decries Lankhmar characters' Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser as homophobic caricatures!"
"WoTC exec denounces City State of the Invincible Warlord as fascist alt-right Nazi-porn!"
I don't know exactly who's directing this movie, but I can write for it.
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on February 28, 2023, 07:57:08 PM
Good vid pundit. I agree, I don't know why people keep giving WotC money and expect things to be different.
Be happy WotC isn't going to redo Dark Sun.
There really does not need to be an official new release of the setting.
WotC does not have one single good designer on staff or work for hire. They are all simply diversity hires. They can't design.
Yes. Be happy that WOTC won't wokify Dark Sun.
There's two Dark Sun titles on Drivethru, "Dark Sun Boxed Set (2e)" https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17169/Dark-Sun-Boxed-Set-2e (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17169/Dark-Sun-Boxed-Set-2e) and "Dark Sun Campaign Setting (Expanded and Revised Edition) (2e)" https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17203/Dark-Sun-Campaign-Setting-Expanded-and-Revised-Edition-2e (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17203/Dark-Sun-Campaign-Setting-Expanded-and-Revised-Edition-2e).
I've not read any Dark Sun material. Which version is the 'definitive' version to get? Given WOTC's capricious nature, all their 'problematic' titles could be pulled anytime, so I might as well get them while I can.
Hmmm....even Drivethru could cave anytime to the scolds and voluntarily pull them themselves.
WOTC and Drivethru's incestuously hypocritical wink-and-nod can only last so long, at least until a problematic title's sales drop into the single digits per week. For example, once they've bled Oriental Adventures dry, they'll piously announce its removal 'for the good of humanity'. No doubt they'll fly Daniel Kwan out to stream live his shovelling copies into a roaring dumpster fire behind their warehouse, while hawking "KWAN WAS RIGHT" t-shirts in their merch store.
Quote from: Punch and Pie on March 01, 2023, 02:41:58 AM
There's two Dark Sun titles on Drivethru, "Dark Sun Boxed Set (2e)" https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17169/Dark-Sun-Boxed-Set-2e (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17169/Dark-Sun-Boxed-Set-2e) and "Dark Sun Campaign Setting (Expanded and Revised Edition) (2e)" https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17203/Dark-Sun-Campaign-Setting-Expanded-and-Revised-Edition-2e (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17203/Dark-Sun-Campaign-Setting-Expanded-and-Revised-Edition-2e).
I've not read any Dark Sun material. Which version is the 'definitive' version to get?
Dark Sun was notorious for getting worse over time as it followed the novels, so earlier the better, even more than Forgotten Realms.
Quote from: Punch and Pie on March 01, 2023, 02:41:58 AM
There's two Dark Sun titles on Drivethru, "Dark Sun Boxed Set (2e)" https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17169/Dark-Sun-Boxed-Set-2e (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17169/Dark-Sun-Boxed-Set-2e) and "Dark Sun Campaign Setting (Expanded and Revised Edition) (2e)" https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17203/Dark-Sun-Campaign-Setting-Expanded-and-Revised-Edition-2e (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17203/Dark-Sun-Campaign-Setting-Expanded-and-Revised-Edition-2e).
I've not read any Dark Sun material. Which version is the 'definitive' version to get? Given WOTC's capricious nature, all their 'problematic' titles could be pulled anytime, so I might as well get them while I can.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17169/Dark-Sun-Boxed-Set-2e is the original version of the setting. The expansion Dragon Kings
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17183/Dragon-Kings-2e
is not necessary, but neat in understanding why there's only one Dragon in Tyr, and expands the game to 30th level.
The "Expanded and Revised" edition updated the metaplot with details from the novels. And arguably killed Dark Sun as a setting. Do not reccomend.
Alright, thank you both.
Quote from: Punch and Pie on March 01, 2023, 02:41:58 AM
There's two Dark Sun titles on Drivethru, "Dark Sun Boxed Set (2e)" https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17169/Dark-Sun-Boxed-Set-2e (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17169/Dark-Sun-Boxed-Set-2e) and "Dark Sun Campaign Setting (Expanded and Revised Edition) (2e)" https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17203/Dark-Sun-Campaign-Setting-Expanded-and-Revised-Edition-2e (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17203/Dark-Sun-Campaign-Setting-Expanded-and-Revised-Edition-2e).
I've not read any Dark Sun material. Which version is the 'definitive' version to get? Given WOTC's capricious nature, all their 'problematic' titles could be pulled anytime, so I might as well get them while I can.
Pretty much...
Quote from: S'mon on March 01, 2023, 03:19:55 AM
Quote from: Punch and Pie on March 01, 2023, 02:41:58 AM
snip
Dark Sun was notorious for getting worse over time as it followed the novels, so earlier the better, even more than Forgotten Realms.
...this^, and...
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 01, 2023, 05:43:24 AM
Quote from: Punch and Pie on March 01, 2023, 02:41:58 AM
snip
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17169/Dark-Sun-Boxed-Set-2e is the original version of the setting. The expansion Dragon Kings
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17183/Dragon-Kings-2e
is not necessary, but neat in understanding why there's only one Dragon in Tyr, and expands the game to 30th level.
The "Expanded and Revised" edition updated the metaplot with details from the novels. And arguably killed Dark Sun as a setting. Do not reccomend.
...this^
Might also recommend stuff like the Complete Gladiator's Handbook, Veiled Alliance, Elves of Athas and Dune Trader, but none of them are really necessary (mostly extra background fluff, except for the Gladiator's book, which has a bit more crunch), other than the OG boxed set.
I think they might've done some changes to Psionics by the Expanded & Revised version, which may or may not have been more playable, but it's been ages since I play them, so don't recall (Psionics in general always sucked, though).
darksun is problematic because even if you find water you don't know how to swim.
The only thing problematic with Dark Sun is the Halfling Blue Age/Green Age crap. I'll never run it, but if I did I'd excise that stuff out for sure.
I am sorry I should have read the full page thread before posting
Funny how Dark Sun is problematic, yet WOTC is selling it in print and .pdf on DriveThruRPG.
Things that make you go hmmm...
Shitlibs gonna bedshit
Quote from: Punch and Pie on March 01, 2023, 02:41:58 AM
I've not read any Dark Sun material. Which version is the 'definitive' version to get? Given WOTC's capricious nature, all their 'problematic' titles could be pulled anytime, so I might as well get them while I can.
The Original Box Set is great and more than enough, but it's still 2e, with its goods and bads. If you are down to check it out, I made a full OSR conversion to Old School Essentials for the whole setting.
Genre Rules: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZgTRsZFsWSqrv2KYU2dx4XSJei6LfIuD/view?usp=sharing
DMG: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1g4W5Qmix1h4Eur_Q5DzC5strXOyEMqlc/view?usp=sharing
Psionics: https://drive.google.com/file/d/10GYk4NU1D8va9VjAvyZh7-10GaHuYG2b/view?usp=sharing
Monsters: https://drive.google.com/file/d/11Uvu3cpXbPZ4VRMTpk5NQt2Dmh-S5KT_/view?usp=sharing
Quote from: Mistwell on February 28, 2023, 12:20:51 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on February 27, 2023, 08:28:14 AM
Kyle Brink, who recently said "white guy" D&D gamers "can't leave soon enough for this hobby",
Kyle didn't say that. He was referencing his unit at D&D of about 7 executives, not "D&D gamers."
And I know you knew that. We already had the discussion, which you saw and commented on. So this is you willfully lying and not just being mistaken.
People can make conjectures about it of course, but put quotes around it like you just did as if he literally said white guy D&D gamers (the gamers - not the designers) can't leave soon enough for this hobby. That's you lying. It's not a fine distinction, it's not word play, it's not being pedantic, that's you actually directly lying for clicks.
Which makes you no better than they guys you're supposedly fighting, when you resort to lying about what they said to make money from clicks.
Yes, we did cover this before. You're the one willfully lying.
Quote from: weirdguy564 on February 28, 2023, 06:04:05 PM
Quote from: THE_Leopold on February 28, 2023, 08:37:11 AM
Is there an alternative product that keeps to the spirit of Dark Sun that can be used in it's stead?
RPG Pundit's own World of the Last Sun supposedly has a bit in the setting that's very Dark Sun-ish.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/336819/RPGPundit-Presents-World-of-the-Last-Sun?cPath=126_28809 (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/336819/RPGPundit-Presents-World-of-the-Last-Sun?cPath=126_28809)
Yes, The Shithole. It's not dark sun, but it is my take on a "fantasy apocalyptic badlands" setting, complete with lots of random generators for locations, encounters, local tribes, monsters and more.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 01, 2023, 09:48:33 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on February 28, 2023, 12:20:51 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on February 27, 2023, 08:28:14 AM
Kyle Brink, who recently said "white guy" D&D gamers "can't leave soon enough for this hobby",
Kyle didn't say that. He was referencing his unit at D&D of about 7 executives, not "D&D gamers."
And I know you knew that. We already had the discussion, which you saw and commented on. So this is you willfully lying and not just being mistaken.
People can make conjectures about it of course, but put quotes around it like you just did as if he literally said white guy D&D gamers (the gamers - not the designers) can't leave soon enough for this hobby. That's you lying. It's not a fine distinction, it's not word play, it's not being pedantic, that's you actually directly lying for clicks.
Which makes you no better than they guys you're supposedly fighting, when you resort to lying about what they said to make money from clicks.
Yes, we did cover this before. You're the one willfully lying.
Well sure, if you're going to trust your lying eyes and ears you'll get lots of Wrong-Think. Safer to parrot the party line.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 01, 2023, 09:48:33 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on February 28, 2023, 12:20:51 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on February 27, 2023, 08:28:14 AM
Kyle Brink, who recently said "white guy" D&D gamers "can't leave soon enough for this hobby",
Kyle didn't say that. He was referencing his unit at D&D of about 7 executives, not "D&D gamers."
And I know you knew that. We already had the discussion, which you saw and commented on. So this is you willfully lying and not just being mistaken.
People can make conjectures about it of course, but put quotes around it like you just did as if he literally said white guy D&D gamers (the gamers - not the designers) can't leave soon enough for this hobby. That's you lying. It's not a fine distinction, it's not word play, it's not being pedantic, that's you actually directly lying for clicks.
Which makes you no better than they guys you're supposedly fighting, when you resort to lying about what they said to make money from clicks.
Yes, we did cover this before. You're the one willfully lying.
Thanks for this. So what they are saying is that my white kids who game with me
In our basement should shove off?
Fuck WOTC for good. I was a good whale and bough lots of their stuff. Way to tell me and my KIDS to fuck off. Well done.
Quote from: Grognard GM on March 01, 2023, 04:01:13 PM
The only thing problematic with Dark Sun is the Halfling Blue Age/Green Age crap. I'll never run it, but if I did I'd excise that stuff out for sure.
I do. My general back/forestory for Dark Sun runs a little something like this. It follows some of the official lore, but tweaks stuff I don't like.
The Blue Age was like Pirates of Dark Water. Athas is a water world with lots of islands and small continents. The Pyreen are the dominant race, but not the only one.
The Green Age is like most typical D&D settings. Gods, wizards, etc. Rajat, who is a Pyreen in my version*, discovers/invents defiling as a way to get more power and dominate the other races.
The Red Age and Desert age pretty much follow the existing lore.
After Kalaks' death, I ignore all the novels and metaplot changes to the setting. The world is what the PC's make of it.
After the Desert Age comes the Twilight Age. Athas' sun dims to a dark purple. Magic and life become even more scarce. Mutation and disease are rampant. The first and last Avangion creates a magic portal to take the last few hundred survivors to a new world, and Athas slowly dies and crumbles to dust.
*Eh. Rajat is a Pyreen in the official lore as well. NM that.
Quote from: Lixuniverse on March 01, 2023, 09:27:35 PM
Quote from: Punch and Pie on March 01, 2023, 02:41:58 AM
I've not read any Dark Sun material. Which version is the 'definitive' version to get? Given WOTC's capricious nature, all their 'problematic' titles could be pulled anytime, so I might as well get them while I can.
The Original Box Set is great and more than enough, but it's still 2e, with its goods and bads. If you are down to check it out, I made a full OSR conversion to Old School Essentials for the whole setting.
Genre Rules: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZgTRsZFsWSqrv2KYU2dx4XSJei6LfIuD/view?usp=sharing
DMG: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1g4W5Qmix1h4Eur_Q5DzC5strXOyEMqlc/view?usp=sharing
Psionics: https://drive.google.com/file/d/10GYk4NU1D8va9VjAvyZh7-10GaHuYG2b/view?usp=sharing
Monsters: https://drive.google.com/file/d/11Uvu3cpXbPZ4VRMTpk5NQt2Dmh-S5KT_/view?usp=sharing
Nice! Thanks for sharing this.
And welcome to the site!
Quote from: Lixuniverse on March 01, 2023, 09:27:35 PM
The Original Box Set is great and more than enough, but it's still 2e, with its goods and bads. If you are down to check it out, I made a full OSR conversion to Old School Essentials for the whole setting.
Genre Rules: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZgTRsZFsWSqrv2KYU2dx4XSJei6LfIuD/view?usp=sharing
DMG: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1g4W5Qmix1h4Eur_Q5DzC5strXOyEMqlc/view?usp=sharing
Psionics: https://drive.google.com/file/d/10GYk4NU1D8va9VjAvyZh7-10GaHuYG2b/view?usp=sharing
Monsters: https://drive.google.com/file/d/11Uvu3cpXbPZ4VRMTpk5NQt2Dmh-S5KT_/view?usp=sharing
I just looked these over and they are great. Thanks for sharing them
Quote from: Dapig on March 01, 2023, 10:31:17 PM
Thanks for this. So what they are saying is that my white kids who game with me
In our basement should shove off?
Hey, Dapig. We had a
thread (https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/kyle-brink-executive-producer-of-dd-steps-in-it-again-no-whites-wanted/) on this a few weeks ago. Here's my transcript of that part of the interview, which started with the acknowledgement that 100% of the D&D management positions were white men.
QuoteJeremy Cobb: Can you identify any higher ranking positions that have been filled by people of racially diverse backgrounds?
Kyle Brink: I think if you look at the credits of our books, you'll see some lead designers there who are not cis men. You will also see a lot of primary authors on sources.
These are people who are coming up through the ranks and proving themselves and earning their respect not because of who they are but because of how they are as professionals - which is the best kind of respect. You don't want to be respected because you're the diversity hire. You want to be respected because you're awesome at your job. And that's happening more and more.
Guys like me, we're leaving the workforce, to be blunt. We're not the face of the hobby anymore. I'm not the majority of this hobby anymore.
And so it's important to me that my team of creators look like my players, and have the lived experience that my players do.
And I think there's been mistakes made in years past where people assumed that D&D players were all, y'know, white dudes in a basement. Which has been a faulty assumption for a lot of years and gets more and more false every day and so in my viewpoint, honestly, guys like me can't leave soon enough for this hobby.
And we owe you good games; we owe you good products. And so we need to make sure that everybody working on it is real good at it. And that means not just hiring but also developing. When we bring people in who are good, we need to empower them - give them more room to run. Give them guidance on what we learned when we were creating stuff so that they can create great stuff too.
I always hire people smarter than me, so that I can get out of their way. That's my approach. So as long as we stay on this trajectory, the face of D&D will literally change.
I bolded the part in question, but you can read the other context.
Mistwell is saying that "guys like me" means members of the 100% white male D&D management, which is on topic for the question. Pundit is saying that "guys like me" means all white male gamers in the hobby, i.e. Brink switched to talk about the gaming public instead of the workforce.
I think debating the exact meaning is pointless, since either way, I think he's just spouting empty corporate words that mean nothing except for spin. I don't think that the 100% white male management is actually racially discriminating against white males. I think they're untrustworthy and just stoking divisiveness.
Quote from: jhkim on March 02, 2023, 01:30:26 PM
... Here's my transcript of that part of the interview, which started with the acknowledgement that 100% of the D&D management positions were white men.
QuoteJeremy Cobb: Can you identify any higher ranking positions that have been filled by people of racially diverse backgrounds?
Kyle Brink: I think if you look at the credits of our books, you'll see some lead designers there who are not cis men. You will also see a lot of primary authors on sources.
These are people who are coming up through the ranks and proving themselves and earning their respect not because of who they are but because of how they are as professionals - which is the best kind of respect. You don't want to be respected because you're the diversity hire. You want to be respected because you're awesome at your job. And that's happening more and more.
Guys like me, we're leaving the workforce, to be blunt. We're not the face of the hobby anymore. I'm not the majority of this hobby anymore.
And so it's important to me that my team of creators look like my players, and have the lived experience that my players do.
And I think there's been mistakes made in years past where people assumed that D&D players were all, y'know, white dudes in a basement. Which has been a faulty assumption for a lot of years and gets more and more false every day and so in my viewpoint, honestly, guys like me can't leave soon enough for this hobby.
And we owe you good games; we owe you good products. And so we need to make sure that everybody working on it is real good at it. And that means not just hiring but also developing. When we bring people in who are good, we need to empower them - give them more room to run. Give them guidance on what we learned when we were creating stuff so that they can create great stuff too.
I always hire people smarter than me, so that I can get out of their way. That's my approach. So as long as we stay on this trajectory, the face of D&D will literally change.
I bolded the part in question, but you can read the other context.
Mistwell is saying that "guys like me" means members of the 100% white male D&D management, which is on topic for the question. Pundit is saying that "guys like me" means all white male gamers in the hobby, i.e. Brink switched to talk about the gaming public instead of the workforce.
I think debating the exact meaning is pointless, since either way, I think he's just spouting empty corporate words that mean nothing except for spin. I don't think that the 100% white male management is actually racially discriminating against white males. I think they're untrustworthy and just stoking divisiveness.
Of course it was empty two-faced virtue signaling.
In a way the argument is pointless, because even if you 100% believe the:
"'guys like me' means members of the 100% white male D&D management" interpretation; that is still not a good look!
Being down with purging all white men from WotC/D&D upper management
"for the hobby" is not the rhetorical counter-argument kill shot people think it is...
What is going a bit under reported is this back-handed insult to his customer base:
"We're not the face of the hobby anymore. I'm not the majority of this hobby anymore."i.e. Kyle Brink telling everyone that he's never been to a gaming con...
Quote from: jhkim on March 02, 2023, 01:30:26 PM
Quote from: Dapig on March 01, 2023, 10:31:17 PM
Thanks for this. So what they are saying is that my white kids who game with me
In our basement should shove off?
Hey, Dapig. We had a thread (https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/kyle-brink-executive-producer-of-dd-steps-in-it-again-no-whites-wanted/) on this a few weeks ago. Here's my transcript of that part of the interview, which started with the acknowledgement that 100% of the D&D management positions were white men.
QuoteJeremy Cobb: Can you identify any higher ranking positions that have been filled by people of racially diverse backgrounds?
Kyle Brink: I think if you look at the credits of our books, you'll see some lead designers there who are not cis men. You will also see a lot of primary authors on sources.
These are people who are coming up through the ranks and proving themselves and earning their respect not because of who they are but because of how they are as professionals - which is the best kind of respect. You don't want to be respected because you're the diversity hire. You want to be respected because you're awesome at your job. And that's happening more and more.
Guys like me, we're leaving the workforce, to be blunt. We're not the face of the hobby anymore. I'm not the majority of this hobby anymore.
And so it's important to me that my team of creators look like my players, and have the lived experience that my players do.
And I think there's been mistakes made in years past where people assumed that D&D players were all, y'know, white dudes in a basement. Which has been a faulty assumption for a lot of years and gets more and more false every day and so in my viewpoint, honestly, guys like me can't leave soon enough for this hobby.
And we owe you good games; we owe you good products. And so we need to make sure that everybody working on it is real good at it. And that means not just hiring but also developing. When we bring people in who are good, we need to empower them - give them more room to run. Give them guidance on what we learned when we were creating stuff so that they can create great stuff too.
I always hire people smarter than me, so that I can get out of their way. That's my approach. So as long as we stay on this trajectory, the face of D&D will literally change.
I bolded the part in question, but you can read the other context.
Mistwell is saying that "guys like me" means members of the 100% white male D&D management, which is on topic for the question. Pundit is saying that "guys like me" means all white male gamers in the hobby, i.e. Brink switched to talk about the gaming public instead of the workforce.
I think debating the exact meaning is pointless, since either way, I think he's just spouting empty corporate words that mean nothing except for spin. I don't think that the 100% white male management is actually racially discriminating against white males. I think they're untrustworthy and just stoking divisiveness.
Yeah, Dapig, IF you believe Jhkim's AND Mistwell's interpretation he's not saying you're not welcome to buy Hasbro products, they still want your money! The JUST won't ever hire you or your sons!
That's totally not a racist megacorporation!
Quote from: Lixuniverse on March 01, 2023, 09:27:35 PM
Quote from: Punch and Pie on March 01, 2023, 02:41:58 AM
I've not read any Dark Sun material. Which version is the 'definitive' version to get? Given WOTC's capricious nature, all their 'problematic' titles could be pulled anytime, so I might as well get them while I can.
The Original Box Set is great and more than enough, but it's still 2e, with its goods and bads. If you are down to check it out, I made a full OSR conversion to Old School Essentials for the whole setting.
Genre Rules: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZgTRsZFsWSqrv2KYU2dx4XSJei6LfIuD/view?usp=sharing
DMG: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1g4W5Qmix1h4Eur_Q5DzC5strXOyEMqlc/view?usp=sharing
Psionics: https://drive.google.com/file/d/10GYk4NU1D8va9VjAvyZh7-10GaHuYG2b/view?usp=sharing
Monsters: https://drive.google.com/file/d/11Uvu3cpXbPZ4VRMTpk5NQt2Dmh-S5KT_/view?usp=sharing
Thanks for sharing. Ill try this as soon as i have tome for another campaign
As I posted on another thread, an ambitious individual on Reddit apparently spent 8 years assembling a 5-volume PDF compendium of Dark Sun material, all system-agnostic. It clocks in at 1,300 pages.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkSun/comments/11fwm95/dark_sun_grand_compendium_finished/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkSun/comments/11fwm95/dark_sun_grand_compendium_finished/)
What an achievement. Thanks for sharing it!
Quote from: Omega on February 27, 2023, 12:47:53 PM
They still have their sights set on other stuff like Planescape though. That will probably be a complete fuck up.
Good luck doing a decent Planescape, what with the mess they made of the Outer Planes in 5e.
Quote from: Almost_Useless on February 27, 2023, 09:46:14 PM
"Problematic" is just the word people use when they don't like something, but they can't make a substantive criticism.
"Problematic" is what they use when they want to call you racist (sexist, homophobe, etc.), but can't come up with an excuse.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 02, 2023, 02:26:49 PM
Quote from: jhkim on March 02, 2023, 01:30:26 PM
Quote from: Dapig on March 01, 2023, 10:31:17 PM
Thanks for this. So what they are saying is that my white kids who game with me
In our basement should shove off?
Hey, Dapig. We had a thread (https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/kyle-brink-executive-producer-of-dd-steps-in-it-again-no-whites-wanted/) on this a few weeks ago. Here's my transcript of that part of the interview, which started with the acknowledgement that 100% of the D&D management positions were white men.
QuoteJeremy Cobb: Can you identify any higher ranking positions that have been filled by people of racially diverse backgrounds?
Kyle Brink: I think if you look at the credits of our books, you'll see some lead designers there who are not cis men. You will also see a lot of primary authors on sources.
These are people who are coming up through the ranks and proving themselves and earning their respect not because of who they are but because of how they are as professionals - which is the best kind of respect. You don't want to be respected because you're the diversity hire. You want to be respected because you're awesome at your job. And that's happening more and more.
Guys like me, we're leaving the workforce, to be blunt. We're not the face of the hobby anymore. I'm not the majority of this hobby anymore.
And so it's important to me that my team of creators look like my players, and have the lived experience that my players do.
And I think there's been mistakes made in years past where people assumed that D&D players were all, y'know, white dudes in a basement. Which has been a faulty assumption for a lot of years and gets more and more false every day and so in my viewpoint, honestly, guys like me can't leave soon enough for this hobby.
And we owe you good games; we owe you good products. And so we need to make sure that everybody working on it is real good at it. And that means not just hiring but also developing. When we bring people in who are good, we need to empower them - give them more room to run. Give them guidance on what we learned when we were creating stuff so that they can create great stuff too.
I always hire people smarter than me, so that I can get out of their way. That's my approach. So as long as we stay on this trajectory, the face of D&D will literally change.
I bolded the part in question, but you can read the other context.
Mistwell is saying that "guys like me" means members of the 100% white male D&D management, which is on topic for the question. Pundit is saying that "guys like me" means all white male gamers in the hobby, i.e. Brink switched to talk about the gaming public instead of the workforce.
I think debating the exact meaning is pointless, since either way, I think he's just spouting empty corporate words that mean nothing except for spin. I don't think that the 100% white male management is actually racially discriminating against white males. I think they're untrustworthy and just stoking divisiveness.
Yeah, Dapig, IF you believe Jhkim's AND Mistwell's interpretation he's not saying you're not welcome to buy Hasbro products, they still want your money! The JUST won't ever hire you or your sons!
That's totally not a racist megacorporation!
I find this nauseating. They want me out? Done.
I mean I won't leave the hobby but I won't buy new products.
Although looking at Harry Potter magic proms and other choice options I would not have bought much anyway.
I would like to see some cool armored warriors occasionally in art and all I can muster up is tieflings shooting lasers from their freshly licked buttholes!
Omg...may be the beer but I just made myself laugh! 😂
Quote from: Dapig on March 02, 2023, 09:35:34 PM
I find this nauseating. They want me out? Done.
I mean I won't leave the hobby but I won't buy new products.
Although looking at Harry Potter magic proms and other choice options I would not have bought much anyway.
I would like to see some cool armored warriors occasionally in art and all I can muster up is tieflings shooting lasers from their freshly licked buttholes!
Omg...may be the beer but I just made myself laugh! 😂
You jest, but...
(https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-b3444c853b0888fd07e6f020a606da6e-lq)
Quote from: Jaeger on March 02, 2023, 10:29:12 PM
You jest, but...
SIR THIS IS CLEARLY A MEDICAL PROCEDURE SIR THIS IS TOTALLY NORMAL SIR FISH DEVILS NEED INSPECTIONS FOR THE GREATER GOOD SIR
Quote from: Jaeger on March 02, 2023, 10:29:12 PM
Quote from: Dapig on March 02, 2023, 09:35:34 PM
I find this nauseating. They want me out? Done.
I mean I won't leave the hobby but I won't buy new products.
Although looking at Harry Potter magic proms and other choice options I would not have bought much anyway.
I would like to see some cool armored warriors occasionally in art and all I can muster up is tieflings shooting lasers from their freshly licked buttholes!
Omg...may be the beer but I just made myself laugh! 😂
You jest, but...
(https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-b3444c853b0888fd07e6f020a606da6e-lq)
Quote from: Mad Tom on March 02, 2023, 04:10:26 PM
As I posted on another thread, an ambitious individual on Reddit apparently spent 8 years assembling a 5-volume PDF compendium of Dark Sun material, all system-agnostic. It clocks in at 1,300 pages.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkSun/comments/11fwm95/dark_sun_grand_compendium_finished/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkSun/comments/11fwm95/dark_sun_grand_compendium_finished/)
That's really impressive, thanks for the link.
It doesn't matter. The good 2e properties would just be ruined if current WotC tried to make them, it's better for everyone involved if we don't get more travesties like the 5e Spelljammer. Can you just imagine how badly they'd fuck up Dark Sun or Planescape?
Quote from: Valatar on March 03, 2023, 11:49:30 PM
It doesn't matter. The good 2e properties would just be ruined if current WotC tried to make them, it's better for everyone involved if we don't get more travesties like the 5e Spelljammer. Can you just imagine how badly they'd fuck up Dark Sun or Planescape?
Planescape is due at the end of the year.
Quote from: Valatar on March 03, 2023, 11:49:30 PM
It doesn't matter. The good 2e properties would just be ruined if current WotC tried to make them, it's better for everyone involved if we don't get more travesties like the 5e Spelljammer. Can you just imagine how badly they'd fuck up Dark Sun or Planescape?
On that note, you've misspelled "transvestites."
Quote from: Dispotatic254 on March 04, 2023, 11:52:44 AM
Quote from: Valatar on March 03, 2023, 11:49:30 PM
It doesn't matter. The good 2e properties would just be ruined if current WotC tried to make them, it's better for everyone involved if we don't get more travesties like the 5e Spelljammer. Can you just imagine how badly they'd fuck up Dark Sun or Planescape?
On that note, you've misspelled "transvestites."
Quote from: Grognard GM on March 04, 2023, 12:35:01 PM
Quote from: Dispotatic254 on March 04, 2023, 11:52:44 AM
Quote from: Valatar on March 03, 2023, 11:49:30 PM
It doesn't matter. The good 2e properties would just be ruined if current WotC tried to make them, it's better for everyone involved if we don't get more travesties like the 5e Spelljammer. Can you just imagine how badly they'd fuck up Dark Sun or Planescape?
On that note, you've misspelled "transvestites."
My apologies, I have misspelled "Decepticons."
Quote from: jhkim on March 02, 2023, 01:30:26 PM
Quote from: Dapig on March 01, 2023, 10:31:17 PM
Thanks for this. So what they are saying is that my white kids who game with me
In our basement should shove off?
Hey, Dapig. We had a thread (https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/kyle-brink-executive-producer-of-dd-steps-in-it-again-no-whites-wanted/) on this a few weeks ago. Here's my transcript of that part of the interview, which started with the acknowledgement that 100% of the D&D management positions were white men.
QuoteJeremy Cobb: Can you identify any higher ranking positions that have been filled by people of racially diverse backgrounds?
Kyle Brink: I think if you look at the credits of our books, you'll see some lead designers there who are not cis men. You will also see a lot of primary authors on sources.
These are people who are coming up through the ranks and proving themselves and earning their respect not because of who they are but because of how they are as professionals - which is the best kind of respect. You don't want to be respected because you're the diversity hire. You want to be respected because you're awesome at your job. And that's happening more and more.
Guys like me, we're leaving the workforce, to be blunt. We're not the face of the hobby anymore. I'm not the majority of this hobby anymore.
And so it's important to me that my team of creators look like my players, and have the lived experience that my players do.
And I think there's been mistakes made in years past where people assumed that D&D players were all, y'know, white dudes in a basement. Which has been a faulty assumption for a lot of years and gets more and more false every day and so in my viewpoint, honestly, guys like me can't leave soon enough for this hobby.
And we owe you good games; we owe you good products. And so we need to make sure that everybody working on it is real good at it. And that means not just hiring but also developing. When we bring people in who are good, we need to empower them - give them more room to run. Give them guidance on what we learned when we were creating stuff so that they can create great stuff too.
I always hire people smarter than me, so that I can get out of their way. That's my approach. So as long as we stay on this trajectory, the face of D&D will literally change.
I bolded the part in question, but you can read the other context.
Mistwell is saying that "guys like me" means members of the 100% white male D&D management, which is on topic for the question. Pundit is saying that "guys like me" means all white male gamers in the hobby, i.e. Brink switched to talk about the gaming public instead of the workforce.
I think debating the exact meaning is pointless, since either way, I think he's just spouting empty corporate words that mean nothing except for spin. I don't think that the 100% white male management is actually racially discriminating against white males. I think they're untrustworthy and just stoking divisiveness.
If they are Corporate Words, ie indicative of the corporate culture at WotC, and it's being used as 'spin', in other words telling the audience he actually values what he thinks they want to hear, then that doesn't make any of what he said better, it makes it worse, because it says that this is a fundamental issue with the company. The fact that the company has chosen to start blocking people from social media who ask/challenge about this question, rather than in some way distancing themselves from Brink's declaration about white people, seems to be proof that you're right about this, that it is a part of the corporate culture to call for racial discrimination, and the entire institution is toxic.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 05, 2023, 10:04:06 PM
If they are Corporate Words, ie indicative of the corporate culture at WotC, and it's being used as 'spin', in other words telling the audience he actually values what he thinks they want to hear, then that doesn't make any of what he said better, it makes it worse, because it says that this is a fundamental issue with the company. The fact that the company has chosen to start blocking people from social media who ask/challenge about this question, rather than in some way distancing themselves from Brink's declaration about white people, seems to be proof that you're right about this, that it is a part of the corporate culture to call for racial discrimination, and the entire institution is toxic.
I definitely agree the corporate culture is toxic. And this goes far beyond WoTC/Hasbro of course.
I also agree with JHKim that his response was essentially deflection, that WoTC have no intention of actually replacing their white leadership/executives with black leadership/executives the way Three Black Halflings want. They weren't calling for
white men to leave the hobby, they want
black people in positions of power in the company. So then to deflect Brink talks about how white men can't leave 'the hobby' soon enough. It's intended to imply to them that there'll be positions of power open at the top for black appointees. But in reality he's 'punching down' at regular gamers. That show of contempt then stirs up anti-Woke feeling, and Woke backlash, which is exactly what WoTC had been trying to do all along, and failing, during the OGL fiasco. It's all pretty contemptible.
Quote from: S'mon on March 06, 2023, 02:30:29 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 05, 2023, 10:04:06 PM
If they are Corporate Words, ie indicative of the corporate culture at WotC, and it's being used as 'spin', in other words telling the audience he actually values what he thinks they want to hear, then that doesn't make any of what he said better, it makes it worse, because it says that this is a fundamental issue with the company. The fact that the company has chosen to start blocking people from social media who ask/challenge about this question, rather than in some way distancing themselves from Brink's declaration about white people, seems to be proof that you're right about this, that it is a part of the corporate culture to call for racial discrimination, and the entire institution is toxic.
I definitely agree the corporate culture is toxic. And this goes far beyond WoTC/Hasbro of course.
I also agree with JHKim that his response was essentially deflection, that WoTC have no intention of actually replacing their white leadership/executives with black leadership/executives the way Three Black Halflings want. They weren't calling for white men to leave the hobby, they want black people in positions of power in the company. So then to deflect Brink talks about how white men can't leave 'the hobby' soon enough. It's intended to imply to them that there'll be positions of power open at the top for black appointees. But in reality he's 'punching down' at regular gamers. That show of contempt then stirs up anti-Woke feeling, and Woke backlash, which is exactly what WoTC had been trying to do all along, and failing, during the OGL fiasco. It's all pretty contemptible.
Agreed. This also seems annoyingly strategic in how he drew the line. Because of Brink's spin, if in the future anyone who *isn't* white male gets hired at WotC, it'll be portrayed as a token diversity hire rather than hiring purely based on qualifications. Brink's spin is that the non-discriminatory norm is 100% white male, and that hiring anyone else takes special attention by white men to raise them up.
Anti-woke people focus on his anti-white-male language and declare it the height of woke discrimination -- while woke people will focus on the 100% white male management, and see the exact opposite.
Quote from: jhkim on March 07, 2023, 01:14:48 PM
Quote from: S'mon on March 06, 2023, 02:30:29 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 05, 2023, 10:04:06 PM
If they are Corporate Words, ie indicative of the corporate culture at WotC, and it's being used as 'spin', in other words telling the audience he actually values what he thinks they want to hear, then that doesn't make any of what he said better, it makes it worse, because it says that this is a fundamental issue with the company. The fact that the company has chosen to start blocking people from social media who ask/challenge about this question, rather than in some way distancing themselves from Brink's declaration about white people, seems to be proof that you're right about this, that it is a part of the corporate culture to call for racial discrimination, and the entire institution is toxic.
I definitely agree the corporate culture is toxic. And this goes far beyond WoTC/Hasbro of course.
I also agree with JHKim that his response was essentially deflection, that WoTC have no intention of actually replacing their white leadership/executives with black leadership/executives the way Three Black Halflings want. They weren't calling for white men to leave the hobby, they want black people in positions of power in the company. So then to deflect Brink talks about how white men can't leave 'the hobby' soon enough. It's intended to imply to them that there'll be positions of power open at the top for black appointees. But in reality he's 'punching down' at regular gamers. That show of contempt then stirs up anti-Woke feeling, and Woke backlash, which is exactly what WoTC had been trying to do all along, and failing, during the OGL fiasco. It's all pretty contemptible.
Agreed. This also seems annoyingly strategic in how he drew the line. Because of Brink's spin, if in the future anyone who *isn't* white male gets hired at WotC, it'll be portrayed as a token diversity hire rather than hiring purely based on qualifications. Brink's spin is that the non-discriminatory norm is 100% white male, and that hiring anyone else takes special attention by white men to raise them up.
Anti-woke people focus on his anti-white-male language and declare it the height of woke discrimination -- while woke people will focus on the 100% white male management, and see the exact opposite.
White men told they need to leave, minorities most affected.
Too many white men are looking for jobs at WotC, so now they're going to have to stop hiring white men to make room for the other people that have more of a right to work for WotC than white men have now.
White women need not apply as well since white women are too white to look for jobs anywhere now that M'AMs can do anything better than you!
Simple math guys, 2 + 2 = 5 or you're doing a naughty waycizm!
Quote from: jhkim on March 07, 2023, 01:14:48 PM
Quote from: S'mon on March 06, 2023, 02:30:29 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 05, 2023, 10:04:06 PM
If they are Corporate Words, ie indicative of the corporate culture at WotC, and it's being used as 'spin', in other words telling the audience he actually values what he thinks they want to hear, then that doesn't make any of what he said better, it makes it worse, because it says that this is a fundamental issue with the company. The fact that the company has chosen to start blocking people from social media who ask/challenge about this question, rather than in some way distancing themselves from Brink's declaration about white people, seems to be proof that you're right about this, that it is a part of the corporate culture to call for racial discrimination, and the entire institution is toxic.
I definitely agree the corporate culture is toxic. And this goes far beyond WoTC/Hasbro of course.
I also agree with JHKim that his response was essentially deflection, that WoTC have no intention of actually replacing their white leadership/executives with black leadership/executives the way Three Black Halflings want. They weren't calling for white men to leave the hobby, they want black people in positions of power in the company. So then to deflect Brink talks about how white men can't leave 'the hobby' soon enough. It's intended to imply to them that there'll be positions of power open at the top for black appointees. But in reality he's 'punching down' at regular gamers. That show of contempt then stirs up anti-Woke feeling, and Woke backlash, which is exactly what WoTC had been trying to do all along, and failing, during the OGL fiasco. It's all pretty contemptible.
Agreed. This also seems annoyingly strategic in how he drew the line. Because of Brink's spin, if in the future anyone who *isn't* white male gets hired at WotC, it'll be portrayed as a token diversity hire rather than hiring purely based on qualifications. Brink's spin is that the non-discriminatory norm is 100% white male, and that hiring anyone else takes special attention by white men to raise them up.
Anti-woke people focus on his anti-white-male language and declare it the height of woke discrimination -- while woke people will focus on the 100% white male management, and see the exact opposite.
Or in other words we all hear an anti white statement and woke folk think it is not anti white enough nor the actions with it. Got it.
I think this is on-topic enough - re the origin of the toxic corporate culture, I found this UnHerd article on Blackrock & ESG very enlightening - https://unherd.com/2023/03/blackrocks-tyrannical-esg-agenda/
Basically, it is a way to put the corporations & the investment firms 'above criticism'. This is what WoTC was trying to do with the OGL - "We have to be evil to Fight Hate!"
In old Prussia they said there was a "Marriage of Iron & Rye" - an alliance between the farming interests (the Junkers) and the industrialist businessmen, to control State & Society in their interests. We have a similar "Marriage of Marx & Capital" now, I think. Neo-Marxism is ever more closely aligned with the Corporate* interest, to the extent that they are becoming indistinguishable, like Man & Pig at the end of Animal Farm.
*Not the interests of the shareholders, BTW! So maybe 'Capital' isn't the right word. It's definitely a form of 'Corporate State' system, though.
Quote from: S'mon on March 08, 2023, 05:37:14 AM
I think this is on-topic enough - re the origin of the toxic corporate culture, I found this UnHerd article on Blackrock & ESG very enlightening - https://unherd.com/2023/03/blackrocks-tyrannical-esg-agenda/
Basically, it is a way to put the corporations & the investment firms 'above criticism'. This is what WoTC was trying to do with the OGL - "We have to be evil to Fight Hate!"
In old Prussia they said there was a "Marriage of Iron & Rye" - an alliance between the farming interests (the Junkers) and the industrialist businessmen, to control State & Society in their interests. We have a similar "Marriage of Marx & Capital" now, I think. Neo-Marxism is ever more closely aligned with the Corporate* interest, to the extent that they are becoming indistinguishable, like Man & Pig at the end of Animal Farm.
*Not the interests of the shareholders, BTW! So maybe 'Capital' isn't the right word. It's definitely a form of 'Corporate State' system, though.
Corporations and government offices are not randomly and accidentally adopting DEI standards out of thin air. No doubt BR owns a sizeable chunk of Hasboro if anyone cares to look. Social engineering from a central source top down....Marx would literally cream his shorts. This is also the part of that whole ideology that everyone always misses....equity for all always needs overlords and learned masters to ensure "everyone else" has full equity with closely guarded keys to the upper floors of life.
Quote from: oggsmash on March 08, 2023, 05:28:15 AM
Quote from: jhkim on March 07, 2023, 01:14:48 PM
This also seems annoyingly strategic in how he drew the line. Because of Brink's spin, if in the future anyone who *isn't* white male gets hired at WotC, it'll be portrayed as a token diversity hire rather than hiring purely based on qualifications. Brink's spin is that the non-discriminatory norm is 100% white male, and that hiring anyone else takes special attention by white men to raise them up.
Anti-woke people focus on his anti-white-male language and declare it the height of woke discrimination -- while woke people will focus on the 100% white male management, and see the exact opposite.
Or in other words we all hear an anti white statement and woke folk think it is not anti white enough nor the actions with it. Got it.
That partly matches what I was trying to say, except for the part I bolded with strikethrough - which is the opposite. The statement is more anti-white than most progressives would say.
It's following the same pattern as in previous, like stoking the supposed controversy over Candlekeep Mysteries and wheelchairs -- where an interview with one designer implied a position far more extreme than what most progressives would want... And nothing in the book had anything like the hype.
They're extreme in talk (to benefit from controversy) while at most centrist in action.
---
As another example, take alignment. For decades, there have been dozens of fantasy RPGs without alignment mechanics. They were always a D&D mechanic that was rarely imitated in other RPGs, even in the same genre. But by having some liberal hype, suddenly it becomes the height of wokeness to not have alignment.
Quote from: jhkim on March 08, 2023, 01:12:12 PM
As another example, take alignment. For decades, there have been dozens of fantasy RPGs without alignment mechanics. They were always a D&D mechanic that was rarely imitated in other RPGs, even in the same genre. But by having some liberal hype, suddenly it becomes the height of wokeness to not have alignment.
Totally. I don't understand why anyone would think the mechanic itself is somehow immortal. I think it's an overly simplistic and somewhat nonsensical OCD sacred cow that gets taken way more seriously than it has any right to be, but not immoral. But I digress.
Quote from: jhkim on March 08, 2023, 01:12:12 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on March 08, 2023, 05:28:15 AM
Quote from: jhkim on March 07, 2023, 01:14:48 PM
This also seems annoyingly strategic in how he drew the line. Because of Brink's spin, if in the future anyone who *isn't* white male gets hired at WotC, it'll be portrayed as a token diversity hire rather than hiring purely based on qualifications. Brink's spin is that the non-discriminatory norm is 100% white male, and that hiring anyone else takes special attention by white men to raise them up.
Anti-woke people focus on his anti-white-male language and declare it the height of woke discrimination -- while woke people will focus on the 100% white male management, and see the exact opposite.
Or in other words we all hear an anti white statement and woke folk think it is not anti white enough nor the actions with it. Got it.
That partly matches what I was trying to say, except for the part I bolded with strikethrough - which is the opposite. The statement is more anti-white than most progressives would say.
It's following the same pattern as in previous, like stoking the supposed controversy over Candlekeep Mysteries and wheelchairs -- where an interview with one designer implied a position far more extreme than what most progressives would want... And nothing in the book had anything like the hype.
They're extreme in talk (to benefit from controversy) while at most centrist in action.
---
As another example, take alignment. For decades, there have been dozens of fantasy RPGs without alignment mechanics. They were always a D&D mechanic that was rarely imitated in other RPGs, even in the same genre. But by having some liberal hype, suddenly it becomes the height of wokeness to not have alignment.
Not having the mechanic in a game that never had it? No problemo, On a new game? No problemo
Removing it from D&D? There might be a problem, especially if they have been saying it's evil to have always evil races for wordsalad, buzzword, buzzword.
But I haven't seen D&D removing the mechanic wholecloth, just making it meaningless by not having always evil/good/neutral races. They HAVE stated the reasons behind that move, to do as the woketards demand because evil orcs are (for the progressive anti-racist) a stand in for black people.
So you'll see people calling the move woke, BECAUSE it is.
But you're being your usual disingenuous self.
Evil races in my fantasy game == Problematic
Normie whites looking for day jobs == REEEEEEEEEE
Quote from: jhkim on March 07, 2023, 01:14:48 PM
Quote from: S'mon on March 06, 2023, 02:30:29 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 05, 2023, 10:04:06 PM
If they are Corporate Words, ie indicative of the corporate culture at WotC, and it's being used as 'spin', in other words telling the audience he actually values what he thinks they want to hear, then that doesn't make any of what he said better, it makes it worse, because it says that this is a fundamental issue with the company. The fact that the company has chosen to start blocking people from social media who ask/challenge about this question, rather than in some way distancing themselves from Brink's declaration about white people, seems to be proof that you're right about this, that it is a part of the corporate culture to call for racial discrimination, and the entire institution is toxic.
I definitely agree the corporate culture is toxic. And this goes far beyond WoTC/Hasbro of course.
I also agree with JHKim that his response was essentially deflection, that WoTC have no intention of actually replacing their white leadership/executives with black leadership/executives the way Three Black Halflings want. They weren't calling for white men to leave the hobby, they want black people in positions of power in the company. So then to deflect Brink talks about how white men can't leave 'the hobby' soon enough. It's intended to imply to them that there'll be positions of power open at the top for black appointees. But in reality he's 'punching down' at regular gamers. That show of contempt then stirs up anti-Woke feeling, and Woke backlash, which is exactly what WoTC had been trying to do all along, and failing, during the OGL fiasco. It's all pretty contemptible.
Agreed. This also seems annoyingly strategic in how he drew the line. Because of Brink's spin, if in the future anyone who *isn't* white male gets hired at WotC, it'll be portrayed as a token diversity hire rather than hiring purely based on qualifications. Brink's spin is that the non-discriminatory norm is 100% white male, and that hiring anyone else takes special attention by white men to raise them up.
Anti-woke people focus on his anti-white-male language and declare it the height of woke discrimination -- while woke people will focus on the 100% white male management, and see the exact opposite.
I've pointed out both, though I'll note that the executive at WotC isn't 100% white male. It's 100% white left coast champagne-progressive, but there's also white women in those positions.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on March 01, 2023, 05:43:24 AM
The "Expanded and Revised" edition updated the metaplot with details from the novels. And arguably killed Dark Sun as a setting. Do not reccomend.
Yeah I got it and it was so "eh" that never even noticed the novel stuff.