I'd also add that, perhaps undeservedly, I get a bit suspicious when people get really interested in the issue and they are not near the age in question or health professionals.

I mean, I can see why a 17 year old dating a 15 year old would care, and I can see why a health professional should care.  I start to struggle to see why it is an issue of great concern to a single guy in his mid thirties or forties who is not involved in teenage health or welfare issues directly or indirectly.

I have no view on Levine, I know nothing about her.

John, spot on with respect to the paternity issue, it occurred to me after that post but I didn't think to edit.  Thanks for the follow-up.

You said it.  There is something inherently creepy about a forty or fifty-something year old unaffiliated guy lobbying or endorsing young age of consent or legalizing child-adult sexual relationships.

Quote from: John MorrowLook up Judith Levine and the controversy surrounding her book advocating more and better sex for kids.  Yes, folks, that's the slippery slope you see slipping.  Don't say you weren't warned.

To be fair, some of the controversy surrounding that book is due to exagerrated claims made by some very conservative politicians.  Her book wasn't particularly inspired, but it was basically a piece of feminist academia, not a kiddie-sex manifesto or whatever the fuck it was made out to be.

Her basic arguments is that Americans have serious issues with thinking of children as beings with any kind of sexuality, including adolescents (which is true), and contrasting this with other countries where there is a slightly more realistic view of child and adolescent sexual identity (which is also true), and that age of consent laws should be drastically cut back because they oppress the freedom of young people to have sex (which is opinion, and arguable; I certainly think its pretty idiotic to consider a "17 and 11 month" year old a child who cannot under any circumstances consent to sex but magically consider an 18 year old acceptably mature for the same, and given that without a doubt adolesecents ARE sexual beings something like Canada's age of consent at 14 is something a bit more reasonable).

Anyways, my point is there's a pretty huge fucking gap between what she's about and what something like NAMBLA is about.

RPGPundit

Thanks to all for their views on Judith Levine and NAMBLA. I was working late and google was not an option - sites were blocked - for reasons which were explained to me by the kindly rotund night shift manager, who besides wanting to know why I was interested in "these sensitive sites" what was all this "RPG business" about - when I showed her this site.

So over coffee and smokes - the former which she excepted gratefully - she was breaking fast - the latter I got a mild lecture and envious glances - she was trying to quit.

I can safely say, that therpgsite has got a new lurker - a middle aged Malay woman in Malaysia, who just learnt about roleplaying last night. (Don't worry Pundit  -  D&D was my only example and I advocated that D20 should be the system her kids (they loved LotR and Harry Potter) start with )

Back to the topic at hand. I would be really surprised if the players of DragonEarth were comfortable with the subject matter as described in the post. Discourse on the age of consent is all well and good, but actually playing - with others no less -  to my mind at least, in such a creepy setting is another thing.

Now, I realize that I don't really have much info on exactly what happens during a game - but here's the thing, when a setting defines what is socially acceptable , and by this I mean behaviour which is sanctioned legally, and something that pcs would conceivably do, and this behaviour regarless of any debate about the age of consent in real life is reviled (and subject to the harshest punishment of the law) and rightly so - sex of any kind between adults and children - I get pretty disgusted, it's troubling that grown adults would actually feel comfortable playing in a setting like this - or rather they would be comfortable in each others company while playing in a setting like this.

Regards,
David R

NAMBLA as a whole can take a long walk on a short pier, with weights tied to their ankles. NAMBLA will accept anybody who will support them, even predators.

On Dragon Earth sex and the young are background. The party paladin wants a night with a 16 year old prostitute, he pays her fee and they retire to her place for the encounter. The curtain is drawn, and the players engage in innuendo, allusion, metaphor, and other such risible matters.

It's a part of life. The language is earthier, as is the art. But in some ways the people are actually more reticent regarding sex than we are. They're more into romance, seduction, and good old-fashioned cuddling. It's not that unusual to see two young men pitching woo while their wives are off buying baby clothes for their upcoming "blessed events".

BTW, people on Dragon Earth have terms for various sorts of sex. there is...

•Pleasure sex
•Obligation sex
•First Night sex
•Comfort sex
•Pity sex
•Reconciliation sex
•Initiation sex (Used with virgins.)
•Healing sex
•Fun sex
•Interspecies sex (Mostly between species of Human, but non-humans can be included as well. Non-humanoids are right out.)
•Duty sex

In the end it comes down to, it is how the world works in part. It is a way for people to bond, to build community. It is how they celebrate life, the gods, and God himself. It is an act of defiance against darkness and The Elder Night. It's even fun.

The most important thing is, advertising in modern day Dragon Earth is nowhere near as blatant, overt, agressive, or hostile where sex is concerned. Yes, beer ads do feature pretty girls, but the message is more along the lines of, "With our beer pretty girls will want to spend time with you." than the "Drink our stuff and the girls will impale themselves on your wang." message the real world sends out.

BTW, they do have pornography. It's viewed mostly by young kids, and when their parents catch them Mom or Dad will go over it with the child and point out where the stuff falls short of the reality. The goal is to keep the child from treating people as objects, and for the most part they succeed.

Quote from: mythusmage•Pleasure sex
•Obligation sex
•First Night sex
•Comfort sex
•Pity sex
•Reconciliation sex
•Initiation sex (Used with virgins.)
•Healing sex
•Fun sex
•Interspecies sex (Mostly between species of Human, but non-humans can be included as well. Non-humanoids are right out.)
•Duty sex

The normalcy keeps coming.

You have my pity, considering how absent your real sex life must be for you to have the time, energy, and motive to pursue this ^ instead.

Was that mean? I'm thinkin' maybe I should lay off them stimpacks (zerglings GAA!!)

Yeah, ummm...what everybody else said re: Dragon Earth.

I mean, it looks like you've done an awful lot of work on the setting. Taken as a whole, I'm sure it's one hell of an opus, a living breathing world rife for adventure, thorny social issues, and really compelling play. I'm certain that, provided you got the players and the system and got things rolling - and maybe you have - it'd give you awesome gaming from the get-go. But!

Here I'd like to make it clear I don't want to offend or appear to cast judgement on you. I've never seen anything from you that suggests you deserve either, and I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you're really a wonderful human being.

But when I discover that the GM has, in fact, taken a special amount of time - even ten minutes of thought - composing justifications for widespread sexual relationships between adults and children, I make semi-sincere apologies while I edge my way to the door. I don't care if it's social commentary or an attempt to put something different from our world in the setting, it squicks me pretty hard and I wouldn't be able to focus.

Props on the depth of work, though.

Shit, and here I thought Ed Greenwood was just a little bit creepy with the amount of attention he put into sex in his Forgotten Realms...

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditShit, and here I thought Ed Greenwood was just a little bit creepy with the amount of attention he put into sex in his Forgotten Realms...

RPGPundit

Oh geez, wasn't it on some German or South American message board where he really cut loose with some of the stuff, like how things are "handled" in Silverymoon and whatnot?

Did you read Greenwood's "Silverfall" of last year? To my increasingly disturbed eye, it read rather like a series of progressively brutal violations in seven chapters, and the thread of "plot" meant to tie the whole thing together seemed rendered a mere excuse by the denouement. Creeeepy.

In any case, I'd assume that the creepier characters in a setting were NPCs... I think I'd feel very uncomfortable DM'ing a player who wanted to play a sadist or predator or suchlike from the get-go. I'd not DM an "evil" character for a player, either--they can be nasty, or difficult, or what-have-you, but I'd greatly mislike overseeing a character created expressly to slaughter or inflict pain on the innocent in the hands of a player who really seemed to find their main enjoyment in such.

Kind of like the Therans in Earthdawn games... their culture is extremely twisted in many ways, with child slavery, blood magic, despotism--it's completely normal for them... but they are the NPCs, who are there to stand in contrast with the steadfast Barsaivians, assumed to be the players.

Yes, I've heard of some groups running as Theran adventurers, which is is, I suppose, entirely their option--I only hope that they didn't draw out a lot of the more elaborate ramifications. I would be uncomfortable running a game for ghareez PCs (the albino, secretive master torturers of Thera) because I'm real sure I wouldn't want to talk through the "feats" those PC classes would have! (Much less have to make up charts and tables to cover them)

Quote from: RPGPunditTo be fair, some of the controversy surrounding that book is due to exagerrated claims made by some very conservative politicians.  Her book wasn't particularly inspired, but it was basically a piece of feminist academia, not a kiddie-sex manifesto or whatever the fuck it was made out to be.

Out of curiosity, have you read it or are you judging it by the claims made about it like I am?  Since I haven't read it, I'd take this assessment more seriously if you've read it.  If not, are you simply accepting the word of liberal academics who jumped to its defense, who are not necessarily any more reliable or less prone to exagerration than the conservative activists who critiqued it?  

I've read both sides and while the conservative claims may have been exagerrations, can you dispute the key accusations that Levine supports the lowering of the age of consent to 12 (one year above the age given in the setting example) or used sources associated with the publication PAIDIKA (don't do a search on that one from work, either)?

Quote from: RPGPunditHer basic arguments is that Americans have serious issues with thinking of children as beings with any kind of sexuality, including adolescents (which is true), and contrasting this with other countries where there is a slightly more realistic view of child and adolescent sexual identity (which is also true), and that age of consent laws should be drastically cut back because they oppress the freedom of young people to have sex (which is opinion, and arguable; I certainly think its pretty idiotic to consider a "17 and 11 month" year old a child who cannot under any circumstances consent to sex but magically consider an 18 year old acceptably mature for the same, and given that without a doubt adolesecents ARE sexual beings something like Canada's age of consent at 14 is something a bit more reasonable).

As I said before this is a straw man argument because the age of consent is already 14 in a couple of US states and is 16 in many of the other, not 18 and the age of marriage goes down to 14 or even lower in several states, too.  I doubt that anyone but the most delusional person believes that sexuality magically happens at a certain age, let alone 18.  Can you find any example of anyone making the claim you are attributing to Levine's enemies?

The debate is whether encouraging children to engage in sexual activity is good or not and what actually constitutes encouraging children to engage in sexual activity.  

So what, then, is the real point of the book, especially given that Levine's academic credentials have nothing to do with psychology?  

Quote from: RPGPunditAnyways, my point is there's a pretty huge fucking gap between what she's about and what something like NAMBLA is about.

When a person thinks that sex between adults and 12 year-olds should be legal, no, not really.  When a person advocates that sex between adults and pre-teens might be harmless or even healthy, no, not really.

Quote from: John MorrowWhen a person thinks that sex between adults and 12 year-olds should be legal, no, not really.  When a person advocates that sex between adults and pre-teens might be harmless or even healthy, no, not really.

  Dude, when one pillar of your opposition to an argument is "Well it's legal in some states to have sex at 14 anyway", you really don't get to climb up on your moral high-horse about someone suggesting it should be 12.

  If you want to take issue with her argument I suggest you:

A) Actually address her argument as opposed to stand around huffing and puffing about how outrageous it is, and
B) Find out what her actual fucking argument is.

  You really shouldn't condemn books without reading them, especially when that involves dragging someone's name through the mud in a potentially libellous manner.

  If you're interested in the issue of age of consent politics, I suggest you go out and read some books about it rather than wallowing in self-righteous fury about a book you haven't even read simply because some right-wing websites tell you to.

Quote from: beejazzYou have my pity, considering how absent your real sex life must be for you to have the time, energy, and motive to pursue this ^ instead.

FYI, a large part of the reason why I have any interest in the subject is because I read William Dear's book on the disappearance of 14 year-old James Dallas Eggbert III, the kid who supposedly disappeared playing D&D in the steam tunnels of MSU.  Let's just say that it wasn't D&D that took him out of the state.

Some friends of mine and I compiled our experiences (or lack thereof) with teenaged and childhood sexuality once.  Our conclusion was that kids should be locked into chastity belts until their thirtieth birthdays.

There's no magic age at which you're able to handle sex, but I'd bet it's closer to fifty than fifteen.

Quote from: John MorrowFYI, a large part of the reason why I have any interest in the subject is because I read William Dear's book on the disappearance of 14 year-old James Dallas Eggbert III, the kid who supposedly disappeared playing D&D in the steam tunnels of MSU.  Let's just say that it wasn't D&D that took him out of the state.

Yeah... read the quote in my post to see what I'm referring to. I mean, the debate is fine, but whether or not it's okay to fuck eleven year olds doesn't generally cross my mind when I'm designing RPGs. In any case, this might be because it has NOTHING TO DO WITH GAMEPLAY. Or also because I don't have any desire to roleplay a pedophile (and I've roleplayed some pretty horrible people... I'm just more comfortable with violence, sadism, necromancy, multiple personality disorder, and religious persecution as opposed to fucking children).

Also, I might spend long periods of time calculation dicepool probabilities for my game, but I won't do the same for coming up with a billion lame excuses for sex that won't happen (pity sex, duty sex, I can't afford the rent sex, there's nothing good on TV sex). I'll leave that for whoever writes the scripts of porno flicks and bad sitcoms (the origin of the fictional "pity sex").