Quote from: mythusmageOne last thing. Dragon Earth adults keep an eye out for the kids because of malevolent undead, ghouls, and fiends. When your hope for the future might end up an ambulatory corpse or eaten alive, their sexual behavior becomes a petty concern.

The "ambulatory corpse" bit aside; history and even modern realities seem to show this as the exact opposite.  Subsistence cultures (whether due to primitive conditions or due to third world poverty) almost consistently seem more concerned with the sexual activities of all their members, to the point that we see things like people in certain countries today being willing to see their children killed (or kill them themselves) rather than have them "dishonoured" by inappropriate sexual conduct.

RPGpundit

Quote from: mythusmageWhen a ten year old girl decides she wants to bond closer with her dad's friend, then arrangements are made so this bonding can proceed safely, and to the benefit of the child. The parents are supportive, society is supportive, her lover is supportive. And there are numerous cheap or free contraceptives available, along with "morning after" or even pregnancy termination techniques available just in case.

Has a pc ever had a relationship with a (npc)child in your game? The reason why I'm asking is that I have found pcs who are potrayed as racist, sexist or homophobic but never once have I encountered someone who is willing to portray a paedophile - even in your context of DragonEarth sexual mores.

I'm not shy about tackling issues - but I just don't see your justification working. I've read a lot of fiction both historical and otherwise about the sometimes provocative sexual morality of real or imagined settings, but playing a character who would subscibe to such notions is anathema to me.

If I have misconstrued your posts in any way, please feel free to correct me.

Regards,
David R

When writing YotZ, I have to address racism, sexism, and the nastier part of the human psyche.

It ain't easy, and has led some people to believe I put an overemphasis on sex and the abuse of women, but from what I've seen of anarchist areas, and from what research has shown me of modern day slavery...

Reality is far, far worse than what I've put in my products.

There's a LOT of nasty motherfuckers out there who only deserve a rope, and maybe dirt kicked over thier dead fucking faces.

There's some racist motherfuckers out there, and not even RaHoWa or FATAL can REALLY approach just how fucked up some people are.

So yeah, it does show up in my games.

Elves hate half-elves and half-orcs, and orcs.
Orcs hate elves and half-elves.
Dwarves hate gnomes due to a war several centuries ago.
And the majority of the races in my homebrewed campaign warn children: "Don't stray far from the den, lest a human leap from the bushes and rape you!"

In YotZ?

The P-NAN's are the worst. Vile, slave trading/keeping misogynists and racist motherfuckers who deserve any bullets the PC's throw their way.

Quote from:  mythusmageThey especially don't see it as harmful to the young.

I'm sorry but the more you describe this setting, the more it sounds like I should find the NAMBLA seal of approval somewhere on the game.  Is Judith Levine listed as an inspiration somewhere?

[ADDED: To clarify, this is not intended to apply that Judith Levine is a member of NAMBLA or supports NAMBLA.  Judith Levine is a mainstream advocate of lowered ages of consent and was included in this comment as a possible arguably "mainstream" source of the perspective that sex between adults and children is not necessarily harmful.]

Quote from: John MorrowI'm sorry but the more you describe this setting, the more it sounds like I should find the NAMBLA seal of approval somewhere on the game.  Is Judith Levine listed as an inspiration somewhere?

I'm struggling a bit too.  What on Earth prompted such a detailed justification of this in the setting?

I also seriously question the psychology outlined, which fundamentally misses Mr A's quite correct point that consent really is not the issue, the issue is more of whether consent can be meaningful at that age and frankly I'm not persuaded it can be.

I do wonder in designing a game world why so much time was spent on this particular topic and making it acceptable.

Quote from: RPGPunditThe "ambulatory corpse" bit aside; history and even modern realities seem to show this as the exact opposite.  Subsistence cultures (whether due to primitive conditions or due to third world poverty) almost consistently seem more concerned with the sexual activities of all their members, to the point that we see things like people in certain countries today being willing to see their children killed (or kill them themselves) rather than have them "dishonoured" by inappropriate sexual conduct.

RPGpundit

I agree, the thing is in a subsistence environment an unwanted birth is a serious issue.

Of course, this rather odd setting has contraception for 10 year olds, so history may be a poor guide.

Quote from: BalbinusI do wonder in designing a game world why so much time was spent on this particular topic and making it acceptable.

  Quite. It's the same problem with FATAL really... the issue isn't whether or not the rules for anal rape work or capture the phenomenon but why someone would sit at a computer thinking about how best to deal with the anal rape issue before writing out the mathematical formula allowing GMs to calculate the degree os elasticity of a character's anus.

   In this case it boggles the mind that someone would actually think through the ramifications of magic in the context of people wanting sex with under-aged kids far enough to actually think up cases where an NPC and his 11 year old lover would interact with the PCs.

Quote from: John MorrowI'm sorry but the more you describe this setting, the more it sounds like I should find the NAMBLA seal of approval somewhere on the game.  Is Judith Levine listed as an inspiration somewhere?

Okay, what is NAMBLA and who is Judith Levine ?

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalIn this case it boggles the mind that someone would actually think through the ramifications of magic in the context of people wanting sex with under-aged kids far enough to actually think up cases where an NPC and his 11 year old lover would interact with the PCs.

This is what I'm trying to get at.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: BalbinusI also seriously question the psychology outlined, which fundamentally misses Mr A's quite correct point that consent really is not the issue, the issue is more of whether consent can be meaningful at that age and frankly I'm not persuaded it can be.

Look up Judith Levine and the controversy surrounding her book advocating more and better sex for kids.  Yes, folks, that's the slippery slope you see slipping.  Don't say you weren't warned.

Quote from: BalbinusI do wonder in designing a game world why so much time was spent on this particular topic and making it acceptable.

There are people in the real world spending their time trying to make this issue acceptable.

Quote from: David ROkay, what is NAMBLA and who is Judith Levine ?

Google is your friend.  

http://www.google.com./

Quote from: John MorrowLook up Judith Levine and the controversy surrounding her book advocating more and better sex for kids.  Yes, folks, that's the slippery slope you see slipping.  Don't say you weren't warned.

  Yeah but a slippery slope is a fallacy, yeah?

  Wikipedia says that Levine argues for a liberalisation of the US age of consent, which strikes me as fair enough... it's 16 in the UK.  She also argues for the view that kids are sexual beings, which from personal experience rings true... if from the age of about 13 onwards a woman had offered me sex I would have taken her up on it.  Anyway, the Wikipedia article seems to suggest that the book was more concerned with arguing against the view that people aren't sexual until they reach the age of 18

  The campaign world in question suggests that it's okay to shag 11 year olds.

  In general I'm not all that horrified by discussions of lowering the age of consent, partly because I know I was a horny little shit but also because I think it's healthy for a society to re-evaluate its most basic principles.

Quote from: BalbinusI agree, the thing is in a subsistence environment an unwanted birth is a serious issue.

No, that's not the main issue.  In most cases, the main issue is paternity.  Unless the setting has reliable paternity tests and an infrastructure for child support payments, the objective for men is often to make sure that their children really are their children and not some other guys kids.  Many men still divide women into those they have fun with and those they'd consider marrying for a reason.  There are also other debatable social issues, too.

Quote from: BalbinusOf course, this rather odd setting has contraception for 10 year olds, so history may be a poor guide.

Contraception is also a major problem for any subsistence culture.  Much of the Western world currently has a birth rate in the 1.3 children per woman range.  That's a shrinking population.  While it remains to be seen if that will be fatal for Western countries, it would almost certainly be fatal in a dangerous high-fatality environment.  That's why I loved the scene in the new Battlestar Galactica where Adama, looking at Rosalyn sitting in front of the population number, points out that abortion really runs counter to what humanity needs to survive, which is more people having children, not less.

That's a big part of why I wrote the population essay that ultimately got published in the Tribe 8 Companion.  There we have a high fatality setting and I wanted to explain how the various tribes reproduced and could grow rather than dying out.  For example, if the Joanites are sending all of their women into battles to die at a young age, how do they reproduce?

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalYeah but a slippery slope is a fallacy, yeah?

Sometimes.  What you need to demonstrate is that the slope is actually slippery for it to be valid.  Often it's not and it's a fallacy.  Sometimes it is and it's not.  

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalWikipedia says that Levine argues for a liberalisation of the US age of consent, which strikes me as fair enough... it's 16 in the UK.

I'll spare you the lecture on Wikipedia's biases.  Try Google. You'll find articles pro and con.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalThe campaign world in question suggests that it's okay to shag 11 year olds.

Arguably, so does Levine.  From what I understand, she thinks that sex between an adult and a 12 year-old should be legal so long as it's "consensual" and doesn't involve "exploitation", since she supports the laws in the Netherlands which she seems to think allows consent at 12 (even if it doesn't, in fact, do so).  If you can find a source that disputes this, I'd be interested in seeing it.  Or do you think there is a big difference between a 12 year-old and an 11 year-old?

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalIn general I'm not all that horrified by discussions of lowering the age of consent, partly because I know I was a horny little shit but also because I think it's healthy for a society to re-evaluate its most basic principles.

It sounds more like she's standing up a straw man and knocking it down to me, since I don't think anyone seriously argues that children magically become sexual at 18.  And I would argue that discussions about re-evaluating certain basic principles are often a bad sign, not a good one.

I think one can certainly legitimately discuss the age of consent, it varies hugely country to country.

I also think though that arguing for knocking a couple of years off is a world away from the kind of stuff NAMBLA is advocating.

If, in a historical game, characters had 14 year old mistresses, well that happened.

If, by contrast, a game spends ages on how to get 10 year old mistresses, I think a line may have been crossed.

Where the age is people can and do reasonably differ, we are after all talking about an absolute legal limit for an individual developmental issue.  Below a certain age however and I think you'll find no reputable developmental psychologist arguing in favour.