What's the general consensus: is/are Dice Pool games ONLY games that roll dice as "tokens" where one value = success and another failure, then those are weighed against each other to determine the success or is it just ANY game where lots of dice are rolled?
I mean, to people who think of dice pool games would you lump WEG Star Wars and Hero System in with Storyteller? Or are they different?
In Hero System you can heave handfuls of d6s but you've got to add them up to get a value; 6's are +2 and 1s aren't counted for doing body damage (for example), but 2-5 have a value too. WEG SW adds all d6 face values, but IIRC Storyteller just cares how many 10s versus 1s you rolled, do I remember that right?
For me, the definition of dice pools is "roll a handful, count successes" instead of the WEG / Hero of "roll a handful, count the pips".
Quote from: Spinachcat;653531For me, the definition of dice pools is "roll a handful, count successes" instead of the WEG / Hero of "roll a handful, count the pips".
OK. And thanks by the way for summing up what I was trying to ask.
Dice pools: roll and count the pips OR roll and count successes or are
both dice pools.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;653529or is it just ANY game where lots of dice are rolled?
This... to me. Specifically for task resolution, not for damage rolls, etc.
The dice pool mechanic is roll and count the successes.
Rolling 12 d6 for your fireball damage isn't a dice pool.
However there may be a case to be made if you roll the dice and you aren't just adding pips. So all 6s digive you +1 damage , all 3's give you armour penetration etc. Here you are doing a dice pool but are counting different types of sucesses.
I find dice pools easy to use and its a very flexible mechanic. You have to obviously tweak the original Storyteller a 1 is a criitcal failure and dail it back to if you get no sucesses and a 1 its a critical failure but that is a given.
I may be wrong, however...
Dice Pools originally referenced systems where you roll a variable number of dice and *either* counted the successes or took the highest. The term 'Pool' came not from that roll, but from the ability to add dice to be rolled from an existing Pool.
Shadowrun is the classic example.
Over time I think it's been simplified to reference any system where you roll a varying number of dice and count the successes.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;653532OK. And thanks by the way for summing up what I was trying to ask.
Dice pools: roll and count the pips OR roll and count successes or are both dice pools.
It's not like there's a formal definition, but for my encyclopedia I call the D6 system an "additive dice pool". I tend to use "dice pool" to describe anything where your ability is rated in the number of dice you roll. However, I will qualify and explain - particularly if it is not a target number system like Shadowrun or White Wolf.
This includes at least four common variations:
1) Roll many dice and count the total
2) Roll many dice and count the successes
3) Roll many dice and take the highest die or dice
4) Roll and look for matching dice (as in One Roll Engine)
Not that Wikipedia has any particular authority, but it's worth noting that they define similarly...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dice_pool
Oh, here's my article on terminology that I use when discussing dice probabilities:
http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/systemdesign/dice-methods.html
Quote from: gleichman;653536I may be wrong, however...
Dice Pools originally referenced systems where you roll a variable number of dice and *either* counted the successes or took the highest. The term 'Pool' came not from that roll, but from the ability to add dice to be rolled from an existing Pool..
Yeah, this. Altus Adventum uses dice pools, but you roll your pool (which includes all types of dice, not just the same type) and take the highest result.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;653529I mean, to people who think of dice pool games would you lump WEG Star Wars and Hero System in with Storyteller? Or are they different?
Storyteller just cares how many 10s versus 1s you rolled, do I remember that right?
The first:
There doesn't really seem to be any concensus, see both gleichman and jhkim since both is correct as i see it, even though they are different.
The second:
Storyteller counts sucsesses, but each 1 (a Fumble) removes one sucsess.
However, not only 10 is counted as a suscess unless the task is "near impossible".
The normal difficulty in old WoD was 6, meaning 7, 8, 9 & 10 was sucsesses.
I think the normal difficulty in New WoD is 7, though, meaning 8, 9 & 10 being successes.
I've mainly encountered it as Gleichman said: the 'pool' bit refers to some business of including or not including dice.
That's from ages ago, though, so no surprise if it's at best formerly hip.
Huh. I thought "pool" referred to just having a massive amount of dice to roll, not a specific aspect of that massive amount of dice.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;653587Huh. I thought "pool" referred to just having a massive amount of dice to roll, not a specific aspect of that massive amount of dice.
You need to look at the dice like police looks at people.
3's the gathering/dice pool number.
;)
Quote from: Spinachcat;653531For me, the definition of dice pools is "roll a handful, count successes" instead of the WEG / Hero of "roll a handful, count the pips".
This.
A dice pool is any game mechanic where you roll a variable number of dice. There are MANY variations.
Quote from: Spinachcat;653531For me, the definition of dice pools is "roll a handful, count successes" instead of the WEG / Hero of "roll a handful, count the pips".
But isn't it basically the same, mathematically?
After finding out that many gamers couldn't add, WEG put out a D6 variant (D6 Legends) for their Hercules/Xena game that used picture dice and you just counted successes.
I think the first time i heard of "dice pool" was in a variant of Warhammer Fantasy Battle.
Unless i rewmember incorrect, it was that each time it was your Turn, you got an amount of dice equal to your mage's Mastery.
That was your dice pool.
This held two tactical considerations:
To cast a Spell, you could use any amount of dice you had in your dice pool, the fewer dice you used, the more spells you would be able to cast that Turn, but if you used too few, you'd risk not getting enough on the dice, and thus failing to cast the Spell.
Also, any remaining dice became counterspell dice in the opponents turn, so use all your Magic Dice Pool to cast Spells, and you might have few or no dice to dispel the opponent's Spells.
This is the original use of "pool" in Dice Pool, but it may by today easily be confused by any kind of roll of several dice together.
This confusion may actually have originated with Vampire, which might have been the first time (do correct me if i'm wrong, i know i might be wrong here), the Storytelling system also used the practice of letting successful to-hit dice (minus the ones removed by Fumbles) getting added to the Damage Dice.
This turned the Attack Dice and the Damage Dice into Pools, but it is very possible that it was there that "Dice Pool" started to mean "large amounts of dice rolled together" instead.
Quote from: JeremyR;653718But isn't it basically the same, mathematically?
No.
In "Count the pips" ALL pips are counted, and a 6 or even a 5 may weight up a 2 or a 1, but the 1 & 2 is still added to the total rolled.
But, in "Count successes" the 1 & 2 is usually not counted at all, and the 5 & 6 is just counted as successes.
As I've always seen it used (and used it myself), "dice pool" refers to the mechanics of BOTH games that add dice values (like D6 or Over the Edge) and those that count successes (like Shadowrun or the WoD system).
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