Quick LOTR questions

Aglondir · December 31, 2020, 09:14:26 PM

Is there any reference in Tolkien's works as to:

1. Elves having pointy ears?
2. Elves having darkvision?
3. Dwarves having darkvision?
4. Any race having infravision?

I think the answer to of those questions is No, but it's been some time since I read the books.

Mistwell · December 31, 2020, 09:32:51 PM

Answering to a question on Hobbit ears, Tolkien wrote that these were "only slightly pointed and 'elvish'.

In the Etymologies is stated that "the Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than Human."

Stephen Tannhauser · December 31, 2020, 10:39:23 PM

Elves have keener senses than Men, and many of them are able to see into the spirit world as well, so I suspect between the two they would appear able to see in darkness. Dwarves aren't attributed with this same ability, but logic suggests a race which preferred to live underground would be able to adjust to low light conditions faster and more effectively. No race in the Tolkien legendarium, however, is ever described as being able to see heat or infrared specifically that I know of.

Aglondir · January 02, 2021, 03:06:31 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on December 31, 2020, 09:32:51 PM
Answering to a question on Hobbit ears, Tolkien wrote that these were "only slightly pointed and 'elvish'.

In the Etymologies is stated that "the Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than Human."

Thanks! That solves question 1.

Aglondir · January 02, 2021, 03:14:37 AM

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on December 31, 2020, 10:39:23 PM
Elves have keener senses than Men, and many of them are able to see into the spirit world as well, so I suspect between the two they would appear able to see in darkness.

I thought I read somewhere where they could see under a starlit sky, but I might be confused.

QuoteDwarves aren't attributed with this same ability, but logic suggests a race which preferred to live underground would be able to adjust to low light conditions faster and more effectively.

That makes sense. But I was wondering if there was any explicit mention. How about in the descriptions of Moria-- any torches or lanterns lying around? Torch sconces, maybe? I don't recall any.

QuoteNo race in the Tolkien legendarium, however, is ever described as being able to see heat or infrared specifically that I know of.

That solves 3 and 4. Where did Gygax get infravision from? The 1970's Westworld movie (LOL)?

danskmacabre · January 02, 2021, 03:16:49 AM

There's never been any mention specifically of Dark vision or Infravision for Elves or Dwarves that I'm aware of and I've read many of the Tolkien books.

Elves certainly have superior vision than other races though (Keener vision or some such comment, amongst other comments). That is mentioned several times in LOTR.
Also Bilbo was noted as having better vision than the Dwarves in "The Hobbit". but dunno if that is specific to Bilbo.

Would think Dwarves being more accustomed to being underground and used to the environment is more an explanation than Dark vision.

Pat · January 02, 2021, 08:51:39 AM

Gygax read a lot of science fiction, the thermal vision may have come from trying to overrationalize something that's supposed to be magic.

Eric Diaz · January 02, 2021, 10:15:30 AM

D&D elves and dwarves are more Poul Anderson than Tolkien IIRC. But yeah, I think the "thermal vision" stuff is a D&Dism.

There are some specific "game" elements too, such as NPCs losing infravision if they join the PCs.

finarvyn · January 26, 2021, 09:02:10 AM

Quote from: Pat on January 02, 2021, 08:51:39 AM
Gygax read a lot of science fiction, the thermal vision may have come from trying to overrationalize something that's supposed to be magic.

In OD&D monsters could see in the dark but characters could not. If a monster chose to work with the party, he lost his dark-vision. This wasn't designed to be a "realism" thing at all, but was designed to put characters at a disadvantage.

Brad · January 26, 2021, 11:47:59 AM

Quote from: Aglondir on December 31, 2020, 09:14:26 PM
Is there any reference in Tolkien's works as to:

1. Elves having pointy ears?
2. Elves having darkvision?
3. Dwarves having darkvision?
4. Any race having infravision?

I think the answer to of those questions is No, but it's been some time since I read the books.

1) Not really
2) Nope, although they can see in starlight as if it was daytime (they COULD have heat vision, but this is never spelled out anywhere)
3) Similar to elves, although it is implied they can see normally in absolute darkness to some degree
4) Implied for orcs, but never explicitly

So basically, the answer is pretty much no across the board if you're just reading the Silmarillion, LotR, or the Hobbit. Unfinished Tales has some stuff that makes me believe elves had some sort of darkvision, but it's hard to tell.

Ghostmaker · January 26, 2021, 12:10:57 PM

While not explicitly stated, there's a LOT of implication that elves had some form of perception beyond the usual visual spectrum. There's a passing remark during the meeting between Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli versus Eomer and his riders, when Aragorn faced Eomer down, and Legolas perceived the phantom of a crown flickering on Aragorn's head. Later in the series, as Aragorn and his forces travel the paths of the dead, Legolas comments on how he could perceive the shades of the dead but was unfazed by them.

My guess is that this fairly vague description was distilled down into infravision and later low-light/darkvision, for RPGs.

Brad · January 26, 2021, 12:50:04 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on January 26, 2021, 12:10:57 PM
While not explicitly stated, there's a LOT of implication that elves had some form of perception beyond the usual visual spectrum. There's a passing remark during the meeting between Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli versus Eomer and his riders, when Aragorn faced Eomer down, and Legolas perceived the phantom of a crown flickering on Aragorn's head. Later in the series, as Aragorn and his forces travel the paths of the dead, Legolas comments on how he could perceive the shades of the dead but was unfazed by them.

My guess is that this fairly vague description was distilled down into infravision and later low-light/darkvision, for RPGs.

Dunedain could also use "farseeing" which I suppose is some sort of clairvoyance. Items made by elves were "magical", same with dwarvish made devices. Elves were basically in the physical realm and some sort of ethereal state at the same time, hence their ability to see ringwraiths and wights in their true form. Etc., etc. I think it's safe to assume there was a subtle otherworldly quality to everything except plain old low Men, so I would have no real issue saying Gygax distilled down the elvish ability to see supernatural qualities as infravision.

Wicked Woodpecker of West · January 26, 2021, 07:38:09 PM

As elves unlike men are soulbound to Arda they can percieve both material and spiritual side of it by their natural perception.
So yes they see all things invisible for mortals generally.

KingCheops · January 27, 2021, 11:00:32 AM

Both the Elves and the Dwarfs were created prior to Morgoth's shenanigans with the Trees. So they lived in a world with no light but the stars for an untold amount of time. The Noldor are so fancy because they made it to Valinor and lived in the light of the Trees. The rest of the Moriquendi stayed behind.

Given this I'd say it's safe to assume they at least had better low light vision than the Edain.

Philotomy Jurament · January 27, 2021, 12:25:23 PM

Quote from: KingCheops on January 27, 2021, 11:00:32 AM
Both the Elves and the Dwarfs were created prior to Morgoth's shenanigans with the Trees. So they lived in a world with no light but the stars for an untold amount of time. The Noldor are so fancy because they made it to Valinor and lived in the light of the Trees. The rest of the Moriquendi stayed behind.

This is a nitpicky tangent, but I wouldn't characterize it as Noldor vs. "the rest of the elves." The elves that completed the journey to Aman included Vanyar, Noldor, and some (but not all) Teleri. Any of those would be considered Caliquendi rather than Moriquendi. The Moriquendi would definitely include the Avari, and also those Teleri groups that didn't continue on to Aman (e.g., Nandor, et cetera).