Ok,
So, one thing that is interesting me currently is running a game with no holds barred, roleplaying being important still - not just moving pieces through a dungeon, but that old school feeling that if you don't play hard and smart then your character will get spitted like a turkey and you'll be rolling a new one shortly.
So, what are the elements to that hard played old school feel?
For me, these strike me:
Chargen must be quick, if it takes half an hour to an hour to create a character then no way in hell do I want them dying easily, it is simply too disruptive. High potential lethality for me requires swift chargen.
There must be genuine tactical depth. That can come various ways, DnD does it through resource allocation, other games through choosing different combat maneouvers or whatever. But the decisions taken must have some mechanical impact on survival chances. Games where any tactic works fine because you get a bonus if you describe it well don't count here for my current purposes.
The game should potentially be very deadly. If PCs are stupid or careless they should die. Simple as that.
The lethality should be avoidable with clever play. If the PCs are smart and play tactically and with thought about the risks they should have a fair chance of surviving, I want to encourage tactical play, not just hose the party each week.
If a PC dies, the replacement character shouldn't suck compared to the rest of the party. A key problem with DnD for me, if your fourth level character dies then starting again at first makes you a mildly incompetent hireling. However, starting off with a new fourth level makes the challenge less meaningful.
So, we're talking challenge, we're talking high risk of lethality, we're talking smart play will reduce casualties, we're talking old school.
What games support this play well and why? What do you recommend?
Traveller: MegaTraveller or LBBs.
Fits the bill perfectly, though your ressources aren't built into the character, but in-universe ressources.
Quote from: SettembriniTraveller: MegaTraveller or LBBs.
Fits the bill perfectly, though your ressources aren't built into the character, but in-universe ressources.
What makes it so dangerous though?
Interesting idea for all that, I do own the LBBs. Kind of out of date technologically nowadays isn't it though?
Well you have an average of 21 poitns before you die, all common weapons do 3d damage, whereas a hit for seven points lets you drop unconcious. If you take in the heavy SciFi Weaponry from Book 4 (which answers your question of where the tech is), you have oodles of weapons that do in excess of 10d6 damage.
It's a blast!
Traveller is pretty dangerous if you restrict access to high-tech armour.
As far as tech goes:
1. Play it straight. You want old-school, let's go where the computers weigh tons and 'Nanotech' is a megacorp.
2. Play it as a genre thing. Traveller has the air of Heinlein, Asimov, or other writers of the 50s-70s (before Star Wars). You could heighten that. Kind of like 1., but more into the conventions for their own sake.
3. Update the tech. Hard work, but doable.
Quote3. Update the tech. Hard work, but doable.
Not at all. It's still high tech. Ever counted the weight of the computer systems, wiring desktops, monitors etc. an an aegis cruiser? Look at Fire Fusion and Steel or Megatraveller construction rules. it gets as high tech as Star Trek an beyond.
Quote from: droogTraveller is pretty dangerous if you restrict access to high-tech armour.
As far as tech goes:
1. Play it straight. You want old-school, let's go where the computers weigh tons and 'Nanotech' is a megacorp.
2. Play it as a genre thing. Traveller has the air of Heinlein, Asimov, or other writers of the 50s-70s (before Star Wars). You could heighten that. Kind of like 1., but more into the conventions for their own sake.
3. Update the tech. Hard work, but doable.
My main problem with Traveller these days is suspension of disbelief. The universe is kind of like ours, but with technology worse than we have now. Explaining that in setting is something I find tricky and sadly I'm just not built to ignore it as a genre thing.
If I could get round that it might well be cool.
By technology by the way, I do mean more than just the guns. The day to day technology of the setting, which seems a bit missing.
Any other suggestions? I'll give Traveller more thought but I think it is maybe showing its age a bit these days.
Quote from: SettembriniNot at all. It's still high tech. Ever counted the weight of the computer systems, wiring desktops, monitors etc. an an aegis cruiser? Look at Fire Fusion and Steel or Megatraveller construction rules. it gets as high tech as Star Trek an beyond.
The ship computer weight is fine, modern day ships as you point out have similar computer weights.
It's the lack of all the other tech, no biotech, no personal computing, no wearables or programmable objects, the technology is the 1970s in space and that just gets hard to explain in game.
Quoteno personal computing, no wearables or programmable objects,
Incorrect. Take a look at MegaTraveller or T4 Equipment Catalog. And a PDA was part of the LBBs, IIRC.
Any suggestions in a fantasy or historical vein?
I actually have a game right now that I hope to stick to for a bit, this is more to have something ready to go should need be at shorter notice in future.
Quote from: droogTraveller is pretty dangerous if you restrict access to high-tech armour.
As far as tech goes:
1. Play it straight. You want old-school, let's go where the computers weigh tons and 'Nanotech' is a megacorp.
2. Play it as a genre thing. Traveller has the air of Heinlein, Asimov, or other writers of the 50s-70s (before Star Wars). You could heighten that. Kind of like 1., but more into the conventions for their own sake.
3. Update the tech. Hard work, but doable.
If you really think the tech is unrealistic (I don't happen to think it's that far off, as I related in another thread), it seems to me you'd be pretty safe to scale down the computers. For any ship of significant size, computers take up a minority of space as it is. Scaling down computers on the low end would give you more room to put bigger systems on smaller ships, but cost is going to put a restriction on anything you put on a typical PCs ship if the PCs are keeping up on their payments...
Quote from: BalbinusAny suggestions in a fantasy or historical vein?
I actually have a game right now that I hope to stick to for a bit, this is more to have something ready to go should need be at shorter notice in future.
I don't know how lethal Savage Worlds is, but its boosters (i.e., not me) seem to sing its praises in the vein of simple chargen and tactical depth.
Self-promo, I know, but this ties in very well with your risk/reward thread in Theory, too, so sue me. You should check out
Epic RPG; it's a fantasy RPG in which we built the tactical system to address a lot of these very questions.
Quote from: BalbinusBut the decisions taken must have some mechanical impact on survival chances.
Check. Tactically, decision-making is key. Ganging up on opponents is effective - "normal" players have one default attack and one default defense per combat turn - after the one defense is exhausted, an easy success will strike them. Defensible positions are effective. Damage degrades effectiveness, so striking first and hard is important. The ability to maneuver in combat is important. Armor lessens damage. Parrying with a sword uses a different skill than evading a blow.
Quote from: BalbinusThe game should potentially be very deadly. If PCs are stupid or careless they should die. Simple as that.
Check. Even late-in-the campaign heroes can't stand naked in the street and sneer at five crossbow bolts.
Quote from: BalbinusThe lethality should be avoidable with clever play. If the PCs are smart and play tactically and with thought about the risks they should have a fair chance of surviving, I want to encourage tactical play, not just hose the party each week.
Check. One good cut with a sword probably won't kill a normal person, but it will impair them. That said, if someone wades into a one-on-three, their chances are not good. Again, the model promotes teamwork and tactical play.
Quote from: BalbinusIf a PC dies, the replacement character shouldn't suck compared to the rest of the party.
Check. Epic RPG is skill-based, and the difficulty of growing skills cascades upwards, so it's easier for "low-level" characters grow quickly into being functional. Also, if a newb with a sword is standing next to his buddy who just exhausted the defense(s) of their opponents, he's got a good chance to strike the opponent. Also also, the amount of damage you can take over time only grows minimally then only if you focus on it, so new characters can sustain a similar amount of damage to the old hands.
Quote from: BalbinusChargen must be quick, if it takes half an hour to an hour to create a character then no way in hell do I want them dying easily, it is simply too disruptive. High potential lethality for me requires swift chargen.
The chargen process encourages immersion in whatever setting you run, but I could easily pump out a character in fifteen minutes (minus equipment, etc.) if all the story/background ammo was glossed over. It'll still be there for the GM to look at later, however.
For a playtest reivew, click here (http://www.rpgblog.org/rpg_blog/2006/02/the_epic_rpg_re.html) and for a review of the Rules Manual for use in other campaigns, etc. click here (http://flamesrising.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Reviews&file=index&req=showcontent&id=117).
The testgames for Forward...to Adventure! saw several deaths. Ask Pundit about it.
For fantasy, I'd have a look at The Fantasy Trip/In the Labyrinth. If you look around, you can find scans of the whole thing, or else you can get a 100% legal rewriting of the basic system (sort of like what was done with Mongoose RQ) as Legends of the Ancient World. Look here: http://www.darkcitygames.com/
(Looks like they've expanded their version of the rules to SF and old west. Bonus!)
Depends on how swift is swift, for chargen.
I think GURPS Third Edition fit the bill if you didn't layer on the complexities of the Compendia. They extended likely character-creation time well past the game's original standards, but with BSIII by itself fantasy characters were usually 15-20 minute jobs at the outside using a pencil (faster with a copy of Makechar, etc).
Tactical depth = very. With a nice sense of reactive movement provided by the Retreat mechanic, the knockback rules, etc. We enjoyed BSIII combat so much we'd do it as a standalone boardgame for entire evenings (of course, in this it descended from Melee/TFT).
Lethality ... Varies a lot by starting points, but if you keep it to 100 or less (we had some excellent games using 50pt characters) things could be nice and tense.
But if you mean more like 5 minutes for "swift," that's another story :) BSIII definitely falls well under the half-hour you mention, but I'm not sure if it falls enough under it.
Well if GURPS is being touted as the kind of game that has "quick" character creation then we might as well mention D20 or Rolemaster.
It might take 10-15 minutes for an experienced GURPS player with access to lists of templates to come up with a character but for anyone else it's probably quicker to redecorate your bathroom.
What do we mean by tactically complex? miniatures? Or do we just mean high lethality rate that can be tempered through planning fights properly?
Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalWhat do we mean by tactically complex? miniatures? Or do we just mean high lethality rate that can be tempered through planning fights properly?
The latter, miniatures is yet another cost sink and as such something I hope to avoid.
For timing, I'm thinking ten to fifteen tops really. The idea is to have:
1. something I can quickly plug in should needs be that would be playable in an evening (continuable later by all means, that's definitely a plus, but capable of a solid and resolved scenario in around three hours or so);
2. something which is not predicated on an absence of actual roleplaying (I'm not sure anything is actually, but I don't plan ever really to run a dungeon hack with no thought, skirmish wargames would do that far better than an rpg IMO);
3. something where player thought is rewarded, so that if it is a one night game it is a game that rewards players thinking about what they're doing.
Essentially, so that I can fill in when needed with something bracing and fast moving, with quick chargen and the potential for real risk and reward. Currently we have games that I would like to play on a longer basis, and this is not so much an issue there as ideally characters would not drop like flies in those, but for the occasional short game in between longer ones it would be useful to have something more old school - not in the mindless way old school is now often used as a term but old school as it actually was.
Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalWell if GURPS is being touted as the kind of game that has "quick" character creation
I never "touted" it as "quick." That's the point of my disclaimers. They were in English and
everything.
QuoteIt might take 10-15 minutes for an experienced GURPS player with access to lists of templates to come up with a character [...]
No, BSIII doesn't contain templates, and my post was explicitly about using BSIII "plain." Also, it doesn't require experienced players. Some players will take longer, but mainly if they're the kind who agonizes over the character name for an hour before finally jotting down the stats and moving on :)
Quote from: Elliot WilenFor fantasy, I'd have a look at The Fantasy Trip/In the Labyrinth. If you look around, you can find scans of the whole thing, or else you can get a 100% legal rewriting of the basic system (sort of like what was done with Mongoose RQ) as Legends of the Ancient World. Look here: http://www.darkcitygames.com/
I've also seen quite a few legal copies of the simplified
Dragons of the Underearth which you can get for about $12 new if you look around.
(Fixed my obvious typo)
I personally like WoD. It's even more tactical if you use some of the rules from Armory. Combat can be very lethal, but if you play smart, then you can come out alright. It also has more than enough other things to do in it.
If you're looking for fantasy...Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay has a very quick charcter generation system and it also is very lethal and pretty tactical.
Quote from: S. John RossNo, BSIII doesn't contain templates, and my post was explicitly about using BSIII "plain." Also, it doesn't require experienced players. Some players will take longer, but mainly if they're the kind who agonizes over the character name for an hour before finally jotting down the stats and moving on :)
Well the type of person who agonises over a name for an hour should be beaten to a pulp with a pillow case full of batteries anyway. My favourite example of that kind of thing was the only time I ran full-on Exalted and a player humm'ed and haw'ed for a week before naming his character "Unbendable Eel" like some kind of kung-fu pornstar.
You may well be right as the only time I've ever created a character in Gurps it took about 3 hours as the rest of the group passed round a calculator because they couldn't do fractions in their heads.
Balbinus - Bear in mind that BRP with hit locations lends itself to near "total party maimings" ;) If you were to run a caveman game or run a low-level game where the characters started off without armour then I think it would prompt some serious time spent on tactical planning. Indeed, you could run a game where some junkies are trying to rip off a local drug dealer without weapons and regardless of the system there would have to be careful planning as they'd be going up against guys with uzis.
I don't know... in terms of systems all I can think of is D&D/D20 or Hackmaster or MERP/Rolemaster or maybe something like Rune or those GDW games that weren't traveller where you played mercs or post-apocalyptic types.
Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalYou may well be right as the only time I've ever created a character in Gurps it took about 3 hours as the rest of the group passed round a calculator because they couldn't do fractions in their heads.
Another factor is shopping temptation. Sometimes point-buy systems (not just GURPS) can drag in chargen because a player without a clear character concept can get sucked into trying to
shop for one by poring over lists of ads and disads waiting for inspiration to strike :)
That's the sort of thing I don't generally disclaim, though, since without a clear character concept even Toon or Risus chargen can take hours.
Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalWell the type of person who agonises over a name for an hour should be beaten to a pulp with a pillow case full of batteries anyway. My favourite example of that kind of thing was the only time I ran full-on Exalted and a player humm'ed and haw'ed for a week before naming his character "Unbendable Eel" like some kind of kung-fu pornstar.
You may well be right as the only time I've ever created a character in Gurps it took about 3 hours as the rest of the group passed round a calculator because they couldn't do fractions in their heads.
Gurps third edition, just using the core book and maybe one supplement (they rarely had much by way of additional rules) is not a difficult game. The trick is not to start browsing, it's to think what you want to play, stat him up and then make him an albino midget so as to pay for it all. It used to take me about half an hour or less if I had an easy concept.
Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalBalbinus - Bear in mind that BRP with hit locations lends itself to near "total party maimings" ;) If you were to run a caveman game or run a low-level game where the characters started off without armour then I think it would prompt some serious time spent on tactical planning. Indeed, you could run a game where some junkies are trying to rip off a local drug dealer without weapons and regardless of the system there would have to be careful planning as they'd be going up against guys with uzis.
I don't know... in terms of systems all I can think of is D&D/D20 or Hackmaster or MERP/Rolemaster or maybe something like Rune or those GDW games that weren't traveller where you played mercs or post-apocalyptic types.
My life is too short for D20 or Rolemaster, they're fine games and all but short of breakthroughs in medical technology I doubt they're for me these days.
BRP for all it's many charms isn't always actually that quick funnily enough, I think it's choosing skills that slows it down.
Quote from: BalbinusGurps third edition, just using the core book and maybe one supplement [...] is not a difficult game. The trick is [...] to think what you want to play, stat him up and then make him an albino midget so as to pay for it all.
If I were the sort to put quotes in my sig, I'd put this one there.
Basically, though, if you have any trouble with the temptation to browse/shop, TFT will mitigate it greatly and still give you a pretty GURPS-ish feel. You might want to incorporate a few of the tactical niceties of GURPS combat.
John M.--I agree, Dragons of Underearth is a fair choice if you need a legal, basic, TFT. It's also nice compared to TFT because it's so much more concise. (But not as complete.)
How about Castles & Crusades? It's basically a stripped down 3e.
Quote from: S. John RossSometimes point-buy systems (not just GURPS) can drag in chargen because a player without a clear character concept can get sucked into trying to shop for one by poring over lists of ads and disads waiting for inspiration to strike :)
That's why I prefer games with lists of stuff or even random character generation rather than games that ask the player to make up traits that fit their concept. I rarely start out with a concept specific enough to clearly define everything in detail and the process of defining the character in terms of the lists of stuff provided by the game helps to fill in the details for me.
Quote from: S. John RossThat's the sort of thing I don't generally disclaim, though, since without a clear character concept even Toon or Risus chargen can take hours.
That's where random character generation comes in. I always loved running WFRP1 as a pick-up game. Even at a game club meeting in Japan, I was able to let the players create their own characters rather than using pregens because character generation is so quick yet full of flavor.
Let me also back Elliot and John M's recommendation of Legends of the Ancient World. It's nice to see TFT survive in some form. It looks like it might fit Balbinus's needs quite nicely.
I could say that "Forward... to Adventure!" would fulfill these conditions, but some might find it a little TOO on the simple end of things, though I think it does have a lot of strategy options and such, considering that it is meant to be a game easily playable by beginners.
However, if you want a suggestion of a game that's actually available on the market, I would say WFRP 2e. Fast char creation, tons of options. Lethal play, but not immediately and hopelessly lethal (Fate Points continue to be a great mechanic too, the idea that you start out with a set number of "extra lives").
RPGPundit
Quote from: John MorrowThat's where random character generation comes in.
Choir, preaching; preaching, choir.
Quote from: RPGPunditHowever, if you want a suggestion of a game that's actually available on the market, I would say WFRP 2e.
I wanted to recommend WFRP 2e ... We had a great session of it here not too long ago, but in our combats there wasn't any sort of tactical element beyond what the GM himself added to the scene in terms of environmental opportunities ...
That said, I was a player, not the GM, and I haven't digested the system yet, so it may well be that he was simplifying it to speed gameplay. In the version he ran, at least, the (system-rooted) choice in combat boiled down to pick-a-weapon and attack-or-just-stand-there.
Quote from: S. John RossI wanted to recommend WFRP 2e ... We had a great session of it here not too long ago, but in our combats there wasn't any sort of tactical element beyond what the GM himself added to the scene in terms of environmental opportunities ...
That said, I was a player, not the GM, and I haven't digested the system yet, so it may well be that he was simplifying it to speed gameplay. In the version he ran, at least, the (system-rooted) choice in combat boiled down to pick-a-weapon and attack-or-just-stand-there.
He simplified it.
If you read the combat system, there's a whole slew of combat maneuvers and options you can take to affect your chances. The whole system in 2e is clearly deeply inspired by D20, having each character's "action" in a round divided into two half actions. He can make one movement and one attack, or use a full action to make multiple attacks (if hes capable of making more than one attack per round), or he can take a half action to aim and then the other half to attack, or try to feignt, or do all out defense, etc etc.
It is good. Keeps the players well entertained.
Of course, not as well entertained as when they roll a critical and get to roll on the funky Critical tables! Best thing about WFRP combat!
RPGPundit
QuoteIf you read the combat system [...]
Saha. I really do intend to, one of these days. We had a fine time with it and I'm a long-time devotee of the original.
Quote from: mearlsLet me also back Elliot and John M's recommendation of Legends of the Ancient World. It's nice to see TFT survive in some form. It looks like it might fit Balbinus's needs quite nicely.
That's what I'm currently leaning towards, it's only the lack of random chargen puts me off to be honest, but it is a great game and definitely a front runner.
Pundit, what's Forward to adventure?
WFRP 2 possibly, I got the impression they had wussied it up a bit but that could well be wrong.
I'm one of those Savage Worlds fanatics, so I'll have to chime in and recommend Savage Worlds. I used to love GURPS and HERO, and spent a considerable amount of time playing D&D in its various incarnations. Then I realized that I didn't have enough time to spend wading through mountains of "crunch" and prepping encounters for hours on end, when what I really wanted to do was spend hours working on setting, story, and plot hooks, with less than half an hour struggling with stats.
Savage Worlds fit the bill perfectly. My prep time for encounters has dropped to fifteen minutes for a full five-hour session. Plus, I have all this weird, empty space next to me at the game table where there used to be stacks of notebooks and rule books. Now there's just a box of dice, a piece of scratch paper (that often remains unused), and a couple of empty beer bottles.
Sure, it has its quirks, but character generation is quick, combat is tactical (tactics aren't quite as front-loaded into the character as in D&D), and since I started playing SW I find that the incidence of PC death has increased dramatically. Plus, it's generic enough to be really stinkin' boring, which makes it that much easier to mold into my own twisted worlds...
I was looking at WFRP 2 last night and they have done a really good job with tactical options within the round. You can attack of course, you can feint, drive your opponent back, fight defensively, move and attack, there are a great many options.
Impressive stuff.
Quote from: BalbinusPundit, what's Forward to adventure?
WFRP 2 possibly, I got the impression they had wussied it up a bit but that could well be wrong.
I see from your later post that you now see you were wrong about the "wussied it up" statement for WFRP.
FtA! is an RPG, not yet in print in south america because the translator is still working on it; and not yet in print in English because I've yet to find someone with a company who'd put it out on PDF for me. It was a system that came to me in a dream, for a very rapid-start rapid-play old-school fantasy RPG, meant to be easy for beginners to pick up and get into; and fun enough that experienced players find it entertaining (though a few experienced gamers will likely find it a little too "archetypal" and if you don't dig that you won't like the game).
RPGPundit
I like archetypes when they are in fact archetypal.
I like classes when each class is a clear archetype that anyone would recognise, I lose interest a bit when they get too specific as I think class based systems don't lend themselves well to specificity - there are better routes to that.