Depends on how swift is swift, for chargen.

I think GURPS Third Edition fit the bill if you didn't layer on the complexities of the Compendia. They extended likely character-creation time well past the game's original standards, but with BSIII by itself fantasy characters were usually 15-20 minute jobs at the outside using a pencil (faster with a copy of Makechar, etc).

Tactical depth = very. With a nice sense of reactive movement provided by the Retreat mechanic, the knockback rules, etc. We enjoyed BSIII combat so much we'd do it as a standalone boardgame for entire evenings (of course, in this it descended from Melee/TFT).

Lethality ... Varies a lot by starting points, but if you keep it to 100 or less (we had some excellent games using 50pt characters) things could be nice and tense.

But if you mean more like 5 minutes for "swift," that's another story BSIII definitely falls well under the half-hour you mention, but I'm not sure if it falls enough under it.

Well if GURPS is being touted as the kind of game that has "quick" character creation then we might as well mention D20 or Rolemaster.

It might take 10-15 minutes for an experienced GURPS player with access to lists of templates to come up with a character but for anyone else it's probably quicker to redecorate your bathroom.

What do we mean by tactically complex?  miniatures?  Or do we just mean high lethality rate that can be tempered through planning fights properly?

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalWhat do we mean by tactically complex?  miniatures?  Or do we just mean high lethality rate that can be tempered through planning fights properly?

The latter, miniatures is yet another cost sink and as such something I hope to avoid.

For timing, I'm thinking ten to fifteen tops really.  The idea is to have:

1. something I can quickly plug in should needs be that would be playable in an evening (continuable later by all means, that's definitely a plus, but capable of a solid and resolved scenario in around three hours or so);

2. something which is not predicated on an absence of actual roleplaying (I'm not sure anything is actually, but I don't plan ever really to run a dungeon hack with no thought, skirmish wargames would do that far better than an rpg IMO);

3. something where player thought is rewarded, so that if it is a one night game it is a game that rewards players thinking about what they're doing.

Essentially, so that I can fill in when needed with something bracing and fast moving, with quick chargen and the potential for real risk and reward.  Currently we have games that I would like to play on a longer basis, and this is not so much an issue there as ideally characters would not drop like flies in those, but for the occasional short game in between longer ones it would be useful to have something more old school - not in the mindless way old school is now often used as a term but old school as it actually was.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalWell if GURPS is being touted as the kind of game that has "quick" character creation

I never "touted" it as "quick." That's the point of my disclaimers. They were in English and everything.

QuoteIt might take 10-15 minutes for an experienced GURPS player with access to lists of templates to come up with a character [...]

No, BSIII doesn't contain templates, and my post was explicitly about using BSIII "plain." Also, it doesn't require experienced players. Some players will take longer, but mainly if they're the kind who agonizes over the character name for an hour before finally jotting down the stats and moving on

Quote from: Elliot WilenFor fantasy, I'd have a look at The Fantasy Trip/In the Labyrinth. If you look around, you can find scans of the whole thing, or else you can get a 100% legal rewriting of the basic system (sort of like what was done with Mongoose RQ) as Legends of the Ancient World. Look here: http://www.darkcitygames.com/

I've also seen quite a few legal copies of the simplified Dragons of the Underearth which you can get for about $12 new if you look around.

(Fixed my obvious typo)

I personally like WoD. It's even more tactical if you use some of the rules from Armory. Combat can be very lethal, but if you play smart, then you can come out alright. It also has more than enough other things to do in it.

If you're looking for fantasy...Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay has a very quick charcter generation system and it also is very lethal and pretty tactical.

Quote from: S. John RossNo, BSIII doesn't contain templates, and my post was explicitly about using BSIII "plain." Also, it doesn't require experienced players. Some players will take longer, but mainly if they're the kind who agonizes over the character name for an hour before finally jotting down the stats and moving on

  Well the type of person who agonises over a name for an hour should be beaten to a pulp with a pillow case full of batteries anyway.  My favourite example of that kind of thing was the only time I ran full-on Exalted and a player humm'ed and haw'ed for a week before naming his character "Unbendable Eel" like some kind of kung-fu pornstar.

  You may well be right as the only time I've ever created a character in Gurps it took about 3 hours as the rest of the group passed round a calculator because they couldn't do fractions in their heads.

 

  Balbinus - Bear in mind that BRP with hit locations lends itself to near "total party maimings" If you were to run a caveman game or run a low-level game where the characters started off without armour then I think it would prompt some serious time spent on tactical planning.  Indeed, you could run a game where some junkies are trying to rip off a local drug dealer without weapons and regardless of the system there would have to be careful planning as they'd be going up against guys with uzis.

  I don't know... in terms of systems all I can think of is D&D/D20 or Hackmaster or MERP/Rolemaster or maybe something like Rune or those GDW games that weren't traveller where you played mercs or post-apocalyptic types.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalYou may well be right as the only time I've ever created a character in Gurps it took about 3 hours as the rest of the group passed round a calculator because they couldn't do fractions in their heads.

Another factor is shopping temptation. Sometimes point-buy systems (not just GURPS) can drag in chargen because a player without a clear character concept can get sucked into trying to shop for one by poring over lists of ads and disads waiting for inspiration to strike

That's the sort of thing I don't generally disclaim, though, since without a clear character concept even Toon or Risus chargen can take hours.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalWell the type of person who agonises over a name for an hour should be beaten to a pulp with a pillow case full of batteries anyway.  My favourite example of that kind of thing was the only time I ran full-on Exalted and a player humm'ed and haw'ed for a week before naming his character "Unbendable Eel" like some kind of kung-fu pornstar.

  You may well be right as the only time I've ever created a character in Gurps it took about 3 hours as the rest of the group passed round a calculator because they couldn't do fractions in their heads.  

Gurps third edition, just using the core book and maybe one supplement (they rarely had much by way of additional rules) is not a difficult game.  The trick is not to start browsing, it's to think what you want to play, stat him up and then make him an albino midget so as to pay for it all.  It used to take me about half an hour or less if I had an easy concept.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalBalbinus - Bear in mind that BRP with hit locations lends itself to near "total party maimings" If you were to run a caveman game or run a low-level game where the characters started off without armour then I think it would prompt some serious time spent on tactical planning.  Indeed, you could run a game where some junkies are trying to rip off a local drug dealer without weapons and regardless of the system there would have to be careful planning as they'd be going up against guys with uzis.

  I don't know... in terms of systems all I can think of is D&D/D20 or Hackmaster or MERP/Rolemaster or maybe something like Rune or those GDW games that weren't traveller where you played mercs or post-apocalyptic types.

My life is too short for D20 or Rolemaster, they're fine games and all but short of breakthroughs in medical technology I doubt they're for me these days.

BRP for all it's many charms isn't always actually that quick funnily enough, I think it's choosing skills that slows it down.

Quote from: BalbinusGurps third edition, just using the core book and maybe one supplement [...] is not a difficult game.  The trick is [...] to think what you want to play, stat him up and then make him an albino midget so as to pay for it all.

If I were the sort to put quotes in my sig, I'd put this one there.

Basically, though, if you have any trouble with the temptation to browse/shop, TFT will mitigate it greatly and still give you a pretty GURPS-ish feel. You might want to incorporate a few of the tactical niceties of GURPS combat.

John M.--I agree, Dragons of Underearth is a fair choice if you need a legal, basic, TFT. It's also nice compared to TFT because it's so much more concise. (But not as complete.)

How about Castles & Crusades? It's basically a stripped down 3e.

Quote from: S. John RossSometimes point-buy systems (not just GURPS) can drag in chargen because a player without a clear character concept can get sucked into trying to shop for one by poring over lists of ads and disads waiting for inspiration to strike

That's why I prefer games with lists of stuff or even random character generation rather than games that ask the player to make up traits that fit their concept.  I rarely start out with a concept specific enough to clearly define everything in detail and the process of defining the character in terms of the lists of stuff provided by the game helps to fill in the details for me.

Quote from: S. John RossThat's the sort of thing I don't generally disclaim, though, since without a clear character concept even Toon or Risus chargen can take hours.

That's where random character generation comes in.  I always loved running WFRP1 as a pick-up game.  Even at a game club meeting in Japan, I was able to let the players create their own characters rather than using pregens because character generation is so quick yet full of flavor.

Let me also back Elliot and John M's recommendation of Legends of the Ancient World. It's nice to see TFT survive in some form. It looks like it might fit Balbinus's needs quite nicely.

I could say that "Forward... to Adventure!" would fulfill these conditions, but some might find it a little TOO on the simple end of things, though I think it does have a lot of strategy options and such, considering that it is meant to be a game easily playable by beginners.

However, if you want a suggestion of a game that's actually available on the market, I would say WFRP 2e. Fast char creation, tons of options. Lethal play, but not immediately and hopelessly lethal (Fate Points continue to be a great mechanic too, the idea that you start out with a set number of "extra lives").

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