Ok,

So, one thing that is interesting me currently is running a game with no holds barred, roleplaying being important still - not just moving pieces through a dungeon, but that old school feeling that if you don't play hard and smart then your character will get spitted like a turkey and you'll be rolling a new one shortly.

So, what are the elements to that hard played old school feel?

For me, these strike me:

Chargen must be quick, if it takes half an hour to an hour to create a character then no way in hell do I want them dying easily, it is simply too disruptive.  High potential lethality for me requires swift chargen.

There must be genuine tactical depth.  That can come various ways, DnD does it through resource allocation, other games through choosing different combat maneouvers or whatever.  But the decisions taken must have some mechanical impact on survival chances.  Games where any tactic works fine because you get a bonus if you describe it well don't count here for my current purposes.

The game should potentially be very deadly.  If PCs are stupid or careless they should die.  Simple as that.

The lethality should be avoidable with clever play.  If the PCs are smart and play tactically and with thought about the risks they should have a fair chance of surviving, I want to encourage tactical play, not just hose the party each week.

If a PC dies, the replacement character shouldn't suck compared to the rest of the party.  A key problem with DnD for me, if your fourth level character dies then starting again at first makes you a mildly incompetent hireling.  However, starting off with a new fourth level makes the challenge less meaningful.

So, we're talking challenge, we're talking high risk of lethality, we're talking smart play will reduce casualties, we're talking old school.

What games support this play well and why?  What do you recommend?

Traveller: MegaTraveller or LBBs.
Fits the bill perfectly, though your ressources aren't built into the character, but in-universe ressources.

Quote from: SettembriniTraveller: MegaTraveller or LBBs.
Fits the bill perfectly, though your ressources aren't built into the character, but in-universe ressources.

What makes it so dangerous though?  

Interesting idea for all that, I do own the LBBs.  Kind of out of date technologically nowadays isn't it though?

Well you have an average of 21 poitns before you die, all common weapons do 3d damage, whereas a hit for seven points lets you drop unconcious. If you take in the heavy SciFi Weaponry from Book 4 (which answers your question of where the tech is), you have oodles of weapons that do in excess of 10d6 damage.
It's a blast!

Traveller is pretty dangerous if you restrict access to high-tech armour.

As far as tech goes:
1. Play it straight. You want old-school, let's go where the computers weigh tons and 'Nanotech' is a megacorp.

2. Play it as a genre thing. Traveller has the air of Heinlein, Asimov, or other writers of the 50s-70s (before Star Wars). You could heighten that. Kind of like 1., but more into the conventions for their own sake.

3. Update the tech. Hard work, but doable.

Quote3. Update the tech. Hard work, but doable.

Not at all. It's still high tech. Ever counted the weight of the computer systems, wiring desktops, monitors etc. an an aegis cruiser? Look at Fire Fusion and Steel or Megatraveller construction rules. it gets as high tech as Star Trek an beyond.

Quote from: droogTraveller is pretty dangerous if you restrict access to high-tech armour.

As far as tech goes:
1. Play it straight. You want old-school, let's go where the computers weigh tons and 'Nanotech' is a megacorp.

2. Play it as a genre thing. Traveller has the air of Heinlein, Asimov, or other writers of the 50s-70s (before Star Wars). You could heighten that. Kind of like 1., but more into the conventions for their own sake.

3. Update the tech. Hard work, but doable.

My main problem with Traveller these days is suspension of disbelief.  The universe is kind of like ours, but with technology worse than we have now.  Explaining that in setting is something I find tricky and sadly I'm just not built to ignore it as a genre thing.

If I could get round that it might well be cool.

By technology by the way, I do mean more than just the guns.  The day to day technology of the setting, which seems a bit missing.

Any other suggestions?  I'll give Traveller more thought but I think it is maybe showing its age a bit these days.

Quote from: SettembriniNot at all. It's still high tech. Ever counted the weight of the computer systems, wiring desktops, monitors etc. an an aegis cruiser? Look at Fire Fusion and Steel or Megatraveller construction rules. it gets as high tech as Star Trek an beyond.

The ship computer weight is fine, modern day ships as you point out have similar computer weights.

It's the lack of all the other tech, no biotech, no personal computing, no wearables or programmable objects, the technology is the 1970s in space and that just gets hard to explain in game.

Quoteno personal computing, no wearables or programmable objects,

Incorrect. Take a look at MegaTraveller or T4 Equipment Catalog. And a PDA was part of the LBBs, IIRC.

Any suggestions in a fantasy or historical vein?

I actually have a game right now that I hope to stick to for a bit, this is more to have something ready to go should need be at shorter notice in future.

Quote from: droogTraveller is pretty dangerous if you restrict access to high-tech armour.

As far as tech goes:
1. Play it straight. You want old-school, let's go where the computers weigh tons and 'Nanotech' is a megacorp.

2. Play it as a genre thing. Traveller has the air of Heinlein, Asimov, or other writers of the 50s-70s (before Star Wars). You could heighten that. Kind of like 1., but more into the conventions for their own sake.

3. Update the tech. Hard work, but doable.

If you really think the tech is unrealistic (I don't happen to think it's that far off, as I related in another thread), it seems to me you'd be pretty safe to scale down the computers. For any ship of significant size, computers take up a minority of space as it is. Scaling down computers on the low end would give you more room to put bigger systems on smaller ships, but cost is going to put a restriction on anything you put on a typical PCs ship if the PCs are keeping up on their payments...

Quote from: BalbinusAny suggestions in a fantasy or historical vein?

I actually have a game right now that I hope to stick to for a bit, this is more to have something ready to go should need be at shorter notice in future.

I don't know how lethal Savage Worlds is, but its boosters (i.e., not me) seem to sing its praises in the vein of simple chargen and tactical depth.

Self-promo, I know, but this ties in very well with your risk/reward thread in Theory, too, so sue me.  You should check out Epic RPG; it's a fantasy RPG in which we built the tactical system to address a lot of these very questions.

Quote from: BalbinusBut the decisions taken must have some mechanical impact on survival chances.  

Check.  Tactically, decision-making is key.  Ganging up on opponents is effective - "normal" players have one default attack and one default defense per combat turn - after the one defense is exhausted, an easy success will strike them.  Defensible positions are effective.  Damage degrades effectiveness, so striking first and hard is important.  The ability to maneuver in combat is important.  Armor lessens damage.  Parrying with a sword uses a different skill than evading a blow.

Quote from: BalbinusThe game should potentially be very deadly.  If PCs are stupid or careless they should die.  Simple as that.

Check.  Even late-in-the campaign heroes can't stand naked in the street and sneer at five crossbow bolts.

Quote from: BalbinusThe lethality should be avoidable with clever play.  If the PCs are smart and play tactically and with thought about the risks they should have a fair chance of surviving, I want to encourage tactical play, not just hose the party each week.

Check.  One good cut with a sword probably won't kill a normal person, but it will impair them.  That said, if someone wades into a one-on-three, their chances are not good.  Again, the model promotes teamwork and tactical play.  

Quote from: BalbinusIf a PC dies, the replacement character shouldn't suck compared to the rest of the party.

Check.  Epic RPG is skill-based, and the difficulty of growing skills cascades upwards, so it's easier for "low-level" characters grow quickly into being functional.  Also, if a newb with a sword is standing next to his buddy who just exhausted the defense(s) of their opponents, he's got a good chance to strike the opponent.  Also also, the amount of damage you can take over time only grows minimally then only if you focus on it, so new characters can sustain a similar amount of damage to the old hands.

Quote from: BalbinusChargen must be quick, if it takes half an hour to an hour to create a character then no way in hell do I want them dying easily, it is simply too disruptive.  High potential lethality for me requires swift chargen.

The chargen process encourages immersion in whatever setting you run, but I could easily pump out a character in fifteen minutes (minus equipment, etc.) if all the story/background ammo was glossed over.  It'll still be there for the GM to look at later, however.

For a playtest reivew, click here and for a review of the Rules Manual for use in other campaigns, etc. click here.

The testgames for Forward...to Adventure! saw several deaths. Ask Pundit about it.

For fantasy, I'd have a look at The Fantasy Trip/In the Labyrinth. If you look around, you can find scans of the whole thing, or else you can get a 100% legal rewriting of the basic system (sort of like what was done with Mongoose RQ) as Legends of the Ancient World. Look here: http://www.darkcitygames.com/

(Looks like they've expanded their version of the rules to SF and old west. Bonus!)