Quote from: estar on May 03, 2023, 09:56:18 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 02, 2023, 03:07:18 PM
So AI/Automation is your magic...

It is not magic it is happening right now in many industries including the one I work in, HVAC. And it impacted book publishing including the RPG hobby.

And it not going to be some magic AI thinking for itself. Rather it is tools that augment human productivity.

Quote from: estar on May 03, 2023, 09:56:18 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 02, 2023, 03:07:18 PM
If you get off by imagining a socialist utopia more power to you, I'm just raining on the parade of "it's possible!", no it isn't.

Actually I am more of a libertarian but again ideology has nothing to do with this. This has to do with the impact of technology on productivity.

Agreed. In retrospect, I think my statement above implying a universal basic income (UBI) is a distraction that's irrelevant to the core issue. In my Star Trek games, I never specified anything about a UBI because it was irrelevant. Star Fleet officers worked hard and risked their lives. The point that I made clear for role-playing was that they weren't motivated by gaining wealth. They were already super well-off and the elite of the elite.

It's the same issue if everything is purely capitalistic -- no government UBI. The point is that automation has eased life to the point that menial jobs are fully automated. No sentient robots like Commander Data, but self-driving cars, automated factories, automated farm machines, and so forth. Only minimal work (say 5 hours a week) is sufficient to maintain a secure lifestyle, equivalent to life in a modern-day developed country. Or someone could work full-time and then retire at 26.

Regardless of whether there is a UBI or not, this condition will change humanity's focus.


In Roddenberry's vision, humanity adapted and improved. A few centuries ago, abolition of slavery, free speech, and democratic rule were almost unknown in most of the world. Roddenberry posited that humanity could further improve and grow beyond the sort of corporate cronyism, exploitation, and corruption that is still common now. Not that things are perfect in his future, but they better than in the present.

When I was a kid I thought the whole Star Trek no money thing was pretty neat.  Now it seems pretty unlikely.  There have been so many claims through history that "once this happens, we'll have utopia" and none of them have worked.  I'm dubious that the advancement of tech shown in Star Trek would be any different.  Humanity will manage to muck it up no matter how nice the tech is.  We're not going to have a utopia until we have a change in human nature.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 02, 2023, 03:07:18 PM
"Allowed a life of luxury, most people prefer being productive. They got satisfaction from it, and they were rewarded for their efforts in prestige, perks, and gifts." The experiment of UBI made in Europe (don't remember the country) proves this false, allowed a life on no effort most people will do jack shit.

It was Finland, by the way.  I'm Finnish American so I was a bit embarrassed that they would do something that dumb.  At least they had enough sense to end it once they saw it wasn't working.  If it was implemented in the US it would be here forever no matter how much damage it did, that's just the nature of our politics/

Quote from: Mishihari on May 03, 2023, 03:25:39 PM
We're not going to have a utopia until we have a change in human nature.

I think this is the whole point. It's a vision of the future where humanity has actually evolved for the better. It's a goal to aspire to. Not every iteration of Star Trek has embraced this, but I think that makes for the best Trek.

Quote from: Baron on May 03, 2023, 03:30:33 PM

Quote from: Mishihari on May 03, 2023, 03:25:39 PM
We're not going to have a utopia until we have a change in human nature.

I think this is the whole point. It's a vision of the future where humanity has actually evolved for the better. It's a goal to aspire to. Not every iteration of Star Trek has embraced this, but I think that makes for the best Trek.

Perhaps, but that's not what I think I'm hearing in this thread.  Mostly I'm hearing that the tech will be so great that humans have no need to be bad.  Like we have ever needed a reason...

I'd actually be interested in a good Trek story that showed what changed humanity for the better, if that's the case

Quote from: Mishihari on May 03, 2023, 03:25:39 PM
When I was a kid I thought the whole Star Trek no money thing was pretty neat.  Now.....

Well, thats just not 'true' - it was political dreamer bullshit spun by some writers who wrote scripts for the show.


AGAIN, My campaign is in the boisterous and Bold(!!) 2260s of the Star Trek Universe.

That means 'money' is used from time to time - like Starfleet characters go on Shore leave and a mostly friendly port of call they might spend some of their hard earned credits. What will they do? Possibly go 'bar hopping', maybe take in a local entertainment, or look for a 'hook-up' for the night or weekend - get a hotel room, etc...

In the sort of role playing game sessions I run the player charactersare allowed and encouraged to explore all of the abone. Whilst 'partying on the town' they might hear rumors about Orion pirate attacks, stramge things going on with missding shuttlecrafts, and oh yeah that mysterious 'men in Black' like group that may or not be part of Starfleet.

Those are all Roleplsaying oppurtunities.

Crap about whether are not there is 'socialism' on Earth or some 'UBI' bullshit back homer - does impact,  interfere, intersect, or overlap with Starfleet characters doing their jobs and adventuring.

- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar on May 03, 2023, 03:59:26 PM
That means 'money' is used from time to time - like Starfleet characters go on Shore leave and a mostly friendly port of call they might spend some of their hard earned credits. What will they do? Possibly go 'bar hopping', maybe take in a local entertainment, or look for a 'hook-up' for the night or weekend - get a hotel room, etc...

In the sort of role playing game sessions I run the player characters are allowed and encouraged to explore all of the abone. Whilst 'partying on the town' they might hear rumors about Orion pirate attacks, stramge things going on with missding shuttlecrafts, and oh yeah that mysterious 'men in Black' like group that may or not be part of Starfleet.

I wouldn't think that this makes much difference in practice. In my original series Star Trek games, pure down-time was usually abstracted - but we did play through shore leave on friendly worlds which worked just like the above. PCs would bar hop, make friends or romances, or hook up with locals, sometimes trading with the locals.

On some worlds, they were treated as guests and offered things without paying. On other worlds, they had to trade for local currency and haggle. This is just like it was portrayed in TOS as well as TNG-era series.