Quote from: David Johansen;1114109In any case, few campaigns get to the point where level limits are significant.

That depends on what the level limits are. From memory, the limit in OD&D for elves was Level-4 for fighters, and level 8 or 9 for magic users. The limit for elven fighters would create a ceiling in most campaigns. From personal experience, my first PC was an elf and I hit both those limits, making me kind of happy when the DM adopted Greyhawk as it gave me something else to do with experience points.

Quote from: Lurkndog;1113581the characters to be heroic

Anti-heroic player characters are an offensive element.

Quote from: Omega;1113685This has pervaded board gaming as well slowly to the point now several designers and players are very against math in games at all. Apparetly 1+2+3 is just too complex for "modern" gamers. You have to dumb it down to the point a preschooler is mocking you.

RPGs too; Fudge was made for the innumerate.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1113796Math, the most insidious gatekeeping tool of all time.

If only it were. :cool:

Quote from: Bren;1114103I don't agree. These are player characters, not pieces on a board game. People make (or fail to make) their player characters interesting. Game designers can't graft imagination onto bored and boring people via lists of mechanical widgets.

Then we agree to disagree. If the game designer is too stubborn and or lazy to fix the flaws of his rpg it sure as hell is not my job to do it. Like it or not the fans are not going to fix the flaws of the rpg and will walk away. They did it with Pathfinder 1E in favor of 5E. Rpgs like Harn and Rifts are barely played at least in my neck of the woods. Again gamers will go elsewhere if they can't get the desired gaming they want and certainly don't want to be told to houserule it. Depending on the tyoe of gamer they will politely hand you the book or angrily throw the back at you and go "NO you houerule the rpg" and walk away.

Quote from: Bren;1114104And as they grew in power, we had the PC Jedi learn some Dark Side powers. It's not that the player or the PC wanted to learn that power, but as their understanding of the Force grew, they would realize that it was possible to do something with the Force. Typically this would be a power that they saw in use by an adversary (maybe one that was used against the PC) or it was a power that related to a 'good' Force Power that they were being taught or otherwise learned.

After playing some of the Lucas art video games on my computer. I came to find the whole light and dark aspects of the Force somewhat contradictory in nature. Why can't Force Lightening not be used for good. I mean Kyle Katarn in the video games was to me at least a Neutral version of a Jedi calling on both sides of the Force.

Quote from: sureshot;1114127Then we agree to disagree.

Sure. If the player is too stubborn, uncreative, or lazy to differentiate their character in a roleplaying game in any way that isn't solely mechanical, that's not the game designer's fault nor is it a flaw in the game system.

QuoteDepending on the tyoe of gamer they will politely hand you the book or angrily throw the back at you and go "NO you houerule the rpg" and walk away.

I'm not interested in playing a roleplaying game with people who can't actually be bothered to roleplay.

QuoteAfter playing some of the Lucas art video games on my computer. I came to find the whole light and dark aspects of the Force somewhat contradictory in nature. Why can't Force Lightening not be used for good.

Because using the power requires giving in to uncontrolled rage and hate. Uncontrolled rage and hate are corrosive. They corrupt the user. The ethics involved in the Light Side (in the WEG game) are neither situational nor utilitarian, they are deontological in nature.

If I were to instead make a utilitarian argument, it would be this. Killing 3 hateful, rage filled, evil bastards by becoming an even more powerful hateful, rage filled, evil bastard does not result in a net positive outcome.

Quote from: Bren;1114245Sure. If the player is too stubborn, uncreative, or lazy to differentiate their character in a roleplaying game in any way that isn't solely mechanical, that's not the game designer's fault nor is it a flaw in the game system.

Sometimes it's the rules and not the player. Sure their are some that are lazy and refuse to roleplay absolutely. This is also a hobby to me and not a job. I will try and work with the rules as thdy are. Sometimes depending on how badly flawed an rpg is it's not worth the effort. You need to stop continually blaming players for poor design choices made  rpg designers. Just as I need to accept that not every rpg is catered to my desires

Quote from: Bren;1114245I'm not interested in playing a roleplaying game with people who can't actually be bothered to roleplay.

I am also not interested in gaming with gamers who bend over backwards to make constant excues for poor rpg design while continually blaming gamers for those design decisions.

I see the philosophical and ideological between Dark and Light sides of the force. To me I find it like Nuclear Power. It can both power or destroy a city. I fully understand I am in the minority when it comes to that.

There was this one D&D setting I was reading a while ago which gave half-orc racial stats to a real-world Indian ethnic group; think they were described as wearing dreadlocks or something. The name escapes me at the time, but when I came across the offending passage I shook my head and put the book back up on the shelf.

Quote from: sureshot;1114249Sometimes it's the rules and not the player.

It's no longer 1974. There are scads of games out there. If you don't like the rules of the game you are running, then pick one you like better. However, just because you don't like a rule that doesn't make the rule poor design. I don't like levels, character classes, or increasing hit points. That doesn't make those things bad design, it just makes them something I don't enjoy. Fortunately there are lots of games for me to run that don't have any of those rules.

QuoteI see the philosophical and ideological between Dark and Light sides of the force. To me I find it like Nuclear Power. It can both power or destroy a city. I fully understand I am in the minority when it comes to that.

I don't know what an actual survey would show. You are no where near alone. There's more than a few people who want to play totally-not-evil characters who zap their enemies with Force Lightning and other destructive uses of the Force. The number has increased greatly since the video games let people play characters who zap their enemies with destructive uses of the Force.

Quote from: Bren;1114296However, just because you don't like a rule that doesn't make the rule poor design.

Lets not play the "There is no such thing as objectivity" game.

It's a dead-end discussion wise.

QuoteI don't know what an actual survey would show. You are no where near alone. There's more than a few people who want to play totally-not-evil characters who zap their enemies with Force Lightning and other destructive uses of the Force. The number has increased greatly since the video games let people play characters who zap their enemies with destructive uses of the Force.

Why is the Zapp Bad in the force?

While I myself am not a super fan of Star Wars Stagnation, Im also not a person of the fan of "Its how I use it" principle.
The force is a subtle power and mainly manifests in visions and sort of like a "Positive Fate".
The idea that the Zapp is such an aggressive manifestation of force that the whole thing screams. Its like bludgeoning somebody with a book. Such an expression of rage you shoot lightning.

Being in a state of rage and hate isn't generally like Nuclear power. Its a bad thing and a person that pumps themselves up with hate and rage for powerboosts generally aren't trustworthy.

Quote from: Bren;1114296I don't know what an actual survey would show. You are no where near alone. There's more than a few people who want to play totally-not-evil characters who zap their enemies with Force Lightning and other destructive uses of the Force. The number has increased greatly since the video games let people play characters who zap their enemies with destructive uses of the Force.

In my current campaign my players just realised that their group includes a Fighter with a glowing sword wearing Hell Knight Armour and a robed Druid who usually attacks with Electric Arc.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee;1114322Lets not play the "There is no such thing as objectivity" game.

It's a dead-end discussion wise.

I didn't realize you were playing. If you want to make a non-subjective claim about game design, you have to actually provide some objective proof. Which means you (or one in general) must make an argument that goes beyond "I don't like that rule" or even "A bunch of people don't like that rule."

QuoteWhy is the Zapp Bad in the force?

I gave one answer. (You seem to be saying much the same thing.) Another answer would be, "Because the rules say it is." To which someone might reply, "But I don't want to follow that rule." To which I say, "OK, then don't."

Quote from: Shasarak;1114359In my current campaign my players just realised that their group includes a Fighter with a glowing sword wearing Hell Knight Armour and a robed Druid who usually attacks with Electric Arc.

That sounds more like D&D than Star Wars to me, but OK.

Quote from: Bren;1114296It's no longer 1974. There are scads of games out there. If you don't like the rules of the game you are running, then pick one you like better. However, just because you don't like a rule that doesn't make the rule poor design. I don't like levels, character classes, or increasing hit points. That doesn't make those things bad design, it just makes them something I don't enjoy. Fortunately there are lots of games for me to run that don't have any of those rules.

I agree yet sometimes it is not due to myself or someone else not liking the rules. Sometimes it is the rules. Just because you or someone likes the rules as is does not make an rpg perfect either. Demi-Humans level limits was and is not a good rule imo. Why should I or others be penalized because the designer worried that no one would take humans as race due to the designer making them boring as fuck. It's not a matter of overcoming it with roleplay as that can only solve it so much. If the highest level I can get as a Cleric is Level 5 and I have zero interest in multi-classing into something else. It's not on me to try and figure a solution. I choose the path of least resistance and play boring, vanilla human. If their are no level limits then I will play something other than human. If they are enforced I don't care if the DM really wants to play an all Dwarf or elf campaign in !E or @E I'm playing a human or going elsewhere.

Quote from: Bren;1114296I don't know what an actual survey would show. You are no where near alone. There's more than a few people who want to play totally-not-evil characters who zap their enemies with Force Lightning and other destructive uses of the Force. The number has increased greatly since the video games let people play characters who zap their enemies with destructive uses of the Force.

While I enjoy doing so I also think it's not a good thing in that ruins the mythology of the universe so to speak. For the longest time their was just Light and Dark when it came to Jedi. Suddenly we have what I termed "Grey" Jedi. So all this time all that stuff about Light and Dark was just bullshit and essentially imo either side not willing to see beyond their own beliefs.

Quote from: Bren;1114368I didn't realize you were playing. If you want to make a non-subjective claim about game design, you have to actually provide some objective proof. Which means you (or one in general) must make an argument that goes beyond "I don't like that rule" or even "A bunch of people don't like that rule."

Well neither have you provided any objective proof beyond blaming players for lack of imagination and inability to roleplay. Which is also very subjective. My example with Demi-humans if the rules say I can't be a Dwarven Cleric beyond level 5. No amount of roleplay or imagination is going to make me overcome that handicap. Either I multi-class or play another non-human race that has I higher level cap or Human.

Quote from: sureshot;1114434My example with Demi-humans if the rules say I can't be a Dwarven Cleric beyond level 5. No amount of roleplay or imagination is going to make me overcome that handicap. Either I multi-class or play another non-human race that has I higher level cap or Human.

My point isn't that games are perfectly designed. No game is. My point is that the fact that a rule prevents you from doing what you want, doesn't make it a bad rule. It just means that system and/or rule is a bad fit for what you want to do. But as I said, there are lots of games that let you do lots of things.

QuoteFor the longest time their was just Light and Dark when it came to Jedi. Suddenly we have what I termed "Grey" Jedi. So all this time all that stuff about Light and Dark was just bullshit and essentially imo either side not willing to see beyond their own beliefs.

I agree. When I play (or run) Star Wars it's because I want a want one or more of two things.

• A relatively straightforward black and white conflict between good and evil. And I want that conflict to most strongly be embodied in the conflict between users of the the Light and Dark sides of the Force. The rebellion against the evil Empire is the mundane echo of that black and white conflict.

or
     

• I want fringe characters: smugglers, gamblers, bounty hunters who exist in the setting, but who aren't caught up in the conflict between the Light Side and the Dark Side. But they will be confronted with some type of moral conflict between their selfish interests and some version of doing the right thing, e.g. joining the Rebellion, turning against Black Sun, freeing slaves, or forming a band of, let's say, seven heroes who protect a bunch of poor alien farmers on some backwater planet.

Quote from: sureshot;1114249I see the philosophical and ideological between Dark and Light sides of the force. To me I find it like Nuclear Power. It can both power or destroy a city. I fully understand I am in the minority when it comes to that.

*twitch*