TheRPGSite

From the updates in the thread Questioning chirine ba kal it is clear that you had a different initial experience playing EPT in Tekumel.

Could you tell us about it?

How many players started?
What was the mix of characters?
How many lived past the first few games?
How many gave up and quit playing?

Was it harder than other games at that time?

And of course the most important question ... since I assume it was FUN, what did you enjoy the most?
=

Uff da.  You don't want much out of forty year old memories...

I don't remember all the people in the first group.  Me, Al Muscielewicz (probably butchered the spelling), Deborah Naffziger, two or three others... very likely some subset of Mike Huggins, David Thornley, Michael Wollan from the Tuesday University of Minnesota group.  Possibly Gary Rudolph as well.

Other than Al, Deborah, and me, this is a guess.  I know there were more, but sodomy non sapiens.

The first session started much like any D&D game except we didn't speak the language.  It was STRAIGHT out of EPT... show up in the leaky rowboat, hide in the Foreigner's Quarters, try not to get robbed and killed for your money, and wait for some local who needed muscle that was cheap, noisome, and easily expendable.  I've talked a bit about those early days in Chirine's thread.

Almost everybody started out worshiping Dlamelish, because we were a bunch of horny 19 year olds (yes, including Deborah), and tee hee boobies.

The first expeditions into the Jakalla underworld were an old school D&D dungeon crawl turned up to 11.  Take a look at the damn map and you'll know why.  And Tekumel is almost completely free from 1 HD monsters; EVERYTHING has more hit dice than the players, or poison, or magic, or multiple attacks, or all the above.

A LOT of people played a few times and then drifted away.  Dozens if not more.  Mostly because the game was too weird with no gains.

I think that may be a big part of why Phil dropped the "barbarian in a rowboat" aspect.  The game is much more interesting when it becomes "exploring life in Tekumel" and less "D&D with unpronounceable names."

Some people rolled warriors and some rolled priests or magic users, just like any D&D game.  Nothing noteworthy.

Those of us who kept playing past the first few sessions were serious D&D hounds, and we kept playing because we'd play in any D&D (or D&D style) game we could get into.

The game got a lot better for me once I joined the Army.  THAT was different from the usual D&D game.

Yeah, memories, we all got them but they are not as dependable as some think.

I'm just looking for a feeling of the beginning since most people start there.
If you can't hook people from the start, you go nowhere.
Examples of how it was done are helpful.
If you can still remember them, they are good enough to have value.

Do you recall if NPC "meat shields" were included in your party?

Did everyone join the army or what?

How about in the army, more NPC in the party?
=

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;864390The game got a lot better for me once I joined the Army.  THAT was different from the usual D&D game.

How so?

Do you recall what level your PC was when you joined the Army?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;864390A LOT of people played a few times and then drifted away.  Dozens if not more.  Mostly because the game was too weird with no gains.

I think that may be a big part of why Phil dropped the "barbarian in a rowboat" aspect.  The game is much more interesting when it becomes "exploring life in Tekumel" and less "D&D with unpronounceable names."

Now there's an intriguing perspective. Tékumel didn't drift from foreigners dungeon-crawling to natives wallowing through a labyrinthine society because "swine" demanded "anthropological wank" but because Prof. Barker's crawls were plain brutal!

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;864390Some people rolled warriors and some rolled priests or magic users, just like any D&D game.  Nothing noteworthy.

Don't both these things, in Tékumel, require joining a temple? How was this handled with regards to being a barbarian fresh off the boat?

Quote from: Greentongue;864407Yeah, memories, we all got them but they are not as dependable as some think.

I'm just looking for a feeling of the beginning since most people start there.
If you can't hook people from the start, you go nowhere.
Examples of how it was done are helpful.
If you can still remember them, they are good enough to have value.

Do you recall if NPC "meat shields" were included in your party?

Did everyone join the army or what?

How about in the army, more NPC in the party?
=

We hired torchbearer slaves, but they were useless other than lugging, and had shitty morale.  For the most part, we WERE the NPC meat shields for the citizens.

We did try some expeditions into the City of the Dead ourselves, but outland barbarian grave robber isn't a high status job.

It was better in every way for me to fight as a gladiator in the arena.  More status, less risk, better reward, until the odds in betting on me got to be 4 will get you 1, because I kept winning.  We had a couple of different gladiator games, and we'd play them out.  I was good at them.

The Army was the army, and after that things went in a totally different direction.  "Kasi, march up to Khirgar."  "Yes, My General."  Hup ho off we go.

Quote from: Bren;864408How so?

Do you recall what level your PC was when you joined the Army?

I was 3rd or 4th level.  I was a cohort commander, and from then on, I was a soldier in the Legion of Serqu, Sword of the Empire.  I lived in the Legion barracks, spent my days in the Legion bivouac, and when General Serqu said "Kasi, do such and so," I saluted and said "Yes, my Kerdudalikoi."

Imagine the Musketeers during the campaign around La Rochelle.

Quote from: The Butcher;864421Now there's an intriguing perspective. Tékumel didn't drift from foreigners dungeon-crawling to natives wallowing through a labyrinthine society because "swine" demanded "anthropological wank" but because Prof. Barker's crawls were plain brutal!

A lot of truth to that.  Brutal, and the added danger of the society itself killing you if the monsters didn't.  I have a longer post on "Game Versus World" forming itself.

Quote from: The Butcher;864421Don't both these things, in Tékumel, require joining a temple? How was this handled with regards to being a barbarian fresh off the boat?

I vaguely remember that low level temple functionaries got sent to the Foreigner's Quarters to recruit potentially useful people; there were shitass little temples there too.  I figure that's where you got sent if you pissed somebody off.  If you had the ability to wield other planar energy, you were useful as more than merely a meat shield, and the temples wanted to control as much of that as they could.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;864425I was 3rd or 4th level.  I was a cohort commander, and from then on, I was a soldier in the Legion of Serqu, Sword of the Empire.  I lived in the Legion barracks, spent my days in the Legion bivouac, and when General Serqu said "Kasi, do such and so," I saluted and said "Yes, my Kerdudalikoi."

Imagine the Musketeers during the campaign around La Rochelle.

Thanks. Starting out as a cohort commander helps get a sense of what enlisting meant.

Was there a rationale (other than you being Level 3-4) for someone making a foreigner like you with no army experience* a cohort commander?


* My assumption (probably influenced by something I read or heard) is that the army in Tekumel is professional, more or less in the way that Roman armies in the late Republic or Imperial period were professional, i.e. long term service, issued weapons, actual training, real tactics, real barracks, support organization, etc.

I have no idea why Phil made me a Kasi, and honestly, I never asked.  Inscrutable are the ways of Tsolyanu to the foreign barbarian.

I was expecting to be made a line infantry soldier.

It might have been the fact that even a Kasi, though part of the army, would have a lot more freedom to act than a common footsoldier.

I was tired of trying to negotiate my way through a hostile society and just wanted something where my character had a place in society.  That's why I enlisted.

Well, and I hate political intrigue and wanted nothing to do with any of it, and really didn't give a flying fuck at a rolling donut who the next Emperor was going to be.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;864445I have no idea why Phil made me a Kasi, and honestly, I never asked.  Inscrutable are the ways of Tsolyanu to the foreign barbarian.

I was expecting to be made a line infantry soldier.

Clever man that Phil. If you were a line trooper than he'd have to play your file leader, your company commander, your cohort commander, and your legion general. Much better to give you the cohort commander job leaving him with the general to run.

Quote from: The Butcher;864421Now there's an intriguing perspective. Tékumel didn't drift from foreigners dungeon-crawling to natives wallowing through a labyrinthine society because "swine" demanded "anthropological wank" but because Prof. Barker's crawls were plain brutal!



Don't both these things, in Tékumel, require joining a temple? How was this handled with regards to being a barbarian fresh off the boat?

The former took place in the late 1970s; the latter took place in the middle 1990s. Different game groups, really.

Hello Glorious General,

Could you tell us a bit about Korunme's background(I got horny, young barbarrian, gladiator, then soldier)? Where did you originally hail from? I'm curious about his stats?

Was Korunme your only character? Were there others you played as well?

Fondest(or not), memory of the Professor?

Thanks,

H :0)

He was a barbarian from the southern continent who washed up in Jakalla.  Just like in the original EPT book.

He had no other background.

The "horny" part was ME, not the character.

I played a temple guard of a moderate level in the temple of Karakan for about six months, accompanying some priests out to the Chakas.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;864602The "horny" part was ME, not the character.

The more things change...

:D :D

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;864426A lot of truth to that.  Brutal, and the added danger of the society itself killing you if the monsters didn't.  I have a longer post on "Game Versus World" forming itself.

So, if I'm understanding you right, being put in an unforgiving structure made your PC look for his place in society:)?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;864602He was a barbarian from the southern continent who washed up in Jakalla.  Just like in the original EPT book.

He had no other background.

The "horny" part was ME, not the character.

I played a temple guard of a moderate level in the temple of Karakan for about six months, accompanying some priests out to the Chakas.

He washed up from Haida Pakalla, which is where most of the other PCs washed up from - it's a great place to be from, frankly.

Gronan played his PC wonderfully well - we'd all seen "A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Forum", and he played his PC like Miles Gloriosus:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vN-ttCBHyx8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vN-ttCBHyx8)

It was wonderful. We did the soldiers' chorus, and he did the operatic commander. Phil just sat there in astonishment, with his eyes bulging out through his glasses - he nearly swallowed his cigar. It was a glorious time, I tell you. :)

Quote from: AsenRG;864621So, if I'm understanding you right, being put in an unforgiving structure made your PC look for his place in society:)?

That's a good way to put it.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;864641He washed up from Haida Pakalla, which is where most of the other PCs washed up from - it's a great place to be from, frankly.

Gronan played his PC wonderfully well - we'd all seen "A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Forum", and he played his PC like Miles Gloriosus:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vN-ttCBHyx8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vN-ttCBHyx8)

It was wonderful. We did the soldiers' chorus, and he did the operatic commander. Phil just sat there in astonishment, with his eyes bulging out through his glasses - he nearly swallowed his cigar. It was a glorious time, I tell you. :)

Once Chirine came along, playing the Mighty Molkar/Glorious General became LOTS more fun!  Because by then the player lineups had shifted several times, so you had two strong personalities who both wanted to "play soldier."  We also did a LOT of wargaming and general socializing together, so we knew how to mutually support on the battlefield and we watched many of the same movies (sometimes even in our respective domiciles.)  The other players were perfectly willing to be trogged along with the Legion.  Once I realized that it was my job to lead my legion heroically, die gloriously, and look good doing it to reflect well on my clan, my legion, and my temple, life got much easier.

"Then let us go and be killed as we are ordered.  Is life worth so many questions?"


The ONLY really bad thing was Phil's insistence that a week of Tekumel time equalled a week of real time.  Marching through Milumanaya took for freaking EVER.  There were, alas, too many sessions where at the beginning of the evening I'd say, "Good morning, Chrine, my compliments to the Molkars and it would please me for the legion to march" and at the end of the evening I'd say "Good evening, Chirine, my compliments to the Molkars and it would please me for the legion to encamp for the night."  Since I had an efficient aide de camp, the Sakbe tower guards had been given a message and our scouts had already cleared an area.

Because I had been ordered to take my Legion on campaign, and by Karakan I wasn't going to disobey the Emperor by gallivanting off through all these ruins and suchlike that these civilians (the other PCs) were farbling around with.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;864647Because I had been ordered to take my Legion on campaign, and by Karakan I wasn't going to disobey the Emperor by gallivanting off through all these ruins and suchlike that these civilians (the other PCs) were farbling around with.

Could you have run a secondary character to share in the gallivanting?

Quote from: Bren;864650Could you have run a secondary character to share in the gallivanting?

Sure, we could have - sorry if I'm jumping your lines, here, sir - but we always acted as the 'backstops' for when the PCs came screaming down out of the hills with The Dire Peril chasing them.

And in terms of the game group, by staying in camp and 'doing army things' we gave the other players 'face time' with Phil; we normally had eight to ten long-time regulars in the group, and guests could push this to ten to twelve. Phil's game room was dominated by the Ping-pong table he used for gaming, and there just wasn't a lot of room for people to sit. We had the corner on either side of the pillar that held up the north-west corner of the house, and that was our 'military encampment'. I had the north-west chair on the west side of the table, and Gronan was normally in the north-west chair on the north side of the table. The rest of the north side were the long-term regulars; I had a regular next to me, and everybody else was on the south side. The 'custom of the house' was to put guests in the chairs closest to Phil, as a courtesy to them; gamin with Phil was going to be a pretty rare event for most people, so we tried to make them as welcome as possible. (And that side of the table was a lot more accessible, too.)

Most of the time, we military types sat in our little neck of the woods and had a grand time watching the mayhem and chaos unfold. We laughed our fool heads off, most of the time...

I could have played a secondary character, I suppose, but I WANTED to play Molkar/Kerdu Korunme.  I wanted to prosecute the war and smite the perfidious Yan Koryani hip and thigh.

And though there were some dull nights when I didn't do much (like when the other PCs wanted to do politics while we picked sand out of our kilts) there was an AWFUL lot of Chirine and I sitting in the corner rather like Statler and Waldorf from The Muppet Show, snacking away, razzing the other PCs with humorous asides, and in general having a whee of a time.  Because THEY are down THERE being chased around by various horrible nasties while we were up above placidly marching along the Sakbe road until the PCs came popping up out of some other hole in the ground in a manner not unlike a champagne cork.

"It appears that Origo and his companions have distrubed yet another Nameless Horror of the Ancients, Glorious General."

"So it does, Chirine, so it does.  My compliments to the Kasis of the second and third crossbow cohorts and request they take care of the matter, would you be so kind?"

The "supplies expended" reports Chirine used to come up with for me to sign were pretty choice too.

"75 bolts, crossbow, used for extermination of menace, unnamed, large, crawling, slimy, legless, five headed, pale tan-grey color, one each."

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;864663I could have played a secondary character, I suppose, but I WANTED to play Molkar/Kerdu Korunme.  I wanted to prosecute the war and smite the perfidious Yan Koryani hip and thigh.

And though there were some dull nights when I didn't do much (like when the other PCs wanted to do politics while we picked sand out of our kilts) there was an AWFUL lot of Chirine and I sitting in the corner rather like Statler and Waldorf from The Muppet Show, snacking away, razzing the other PCs with humorous asides, and in general having a whee of a time.  Because THEY are down THERE being chased around by various horrible nasties while we were up above placidly marching along the Sakbe road until the PCs came popping up out of some other hole in the ground in a manner not unlike a champagne cork.

"It appears that Origo and his companions have distrubed yet another Nameless Horror of the Ancients, Glorious General."

"So it does, Chirine, so it does.  My compliments to the Kasis of the second and third crossbow cohorts and request they take care of the matter, would you be so kind?"

The "supplies expended" reports Chirine used to come up with for me to sign were pretty choice too.

"75 bolts, crossbow, used for extermination of menace, unnamed, large, crawling, slimy, legless, five headed, pale tan-grey color, one each."

:) That sounds appropriately bureaucratic. Exactly the way I picture official records being kept in Tsolyánu.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;864663And though there were some dull nights when I didn't do much (like when the other PCs wanted to do politics while we picked sand out of our kilts) there was an AWFUL lot of Chirine and I sitting in the corner rather like Statler and Waldorf from The Muppet Show, snacking away, razzing the other PCs with humorous asides, and in general having a whee of a time.  Because THEY are down THERE being chased around by various horrible nasties while we were up above placidly marching along the Sakbe road until the PCs came popping up out of some other hole in the ground in a manner not unlike a champagne cork.

Or like the night where the player at the other end of the table wanted to do his Imperial tax returns, and it took all night as he was an accountant in real life. We were all bored out of our brains, so I ran the 'Breakfast on the Bastion" scene from "Four Musketeers" down at our end of the table as we were at the Siege of Sunraya and felt the need to contribute to the war effort. (We'd just gotten back from Blackmoor, and had to discuss our options in privacy. Sooo...) We had a great time (in whispers of course, so as not to be rude) and Phil wanted to be playing down at our end of the table so badly it hurt to see...

Quote from: Bren;864670:) That sounds appropriately bureaucratic. Exactly the way I picture official records being kept in Tsolyánu.

Precisely! :) We used to have great fun doing up forms like this, and handing them in, just to see the look on Phil's face. He tried so hard to keep from laughing, but it never worked... :)

"Oi! You!, Yes, I mean you, trooper Kagesh! Those crossbow bolts cost the Glorious General 1 Kaitar, 3 Quirgal, and 4 Hlash (1 GP, 3 SP, & 4 CP, in today's money; we only bought the good stuff) each; don't waste ammunition, soldier."

Oh, the exciting life of the staff officer... :)

I get the feeling that the current imagining of Playing in Tekumel is like a game of "The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air" in an alien setting.
Am I wrong or is this what all the focus on clan is to facilitate?

I assume that you sometimes run games. When you start characters how do you do it? A barbarian off the boat like you started or...?
=

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;864646That's a good way to put it.

Thanks.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;864663I could have played a secondary character, I suppose, but I WANTED to play Molkar/Kerdu Korunme.  I wanted to prosecute the war and smite the perfidious Yan Koryani hip and thigh.

And though there were some dull nights when I didn't do much (like when the other PCs wanted to do politics while we picked sand out of our kilts) there was an AWFUL lot of Chirine and I sitting in the corner rather like Statler and Waldorf from The Muppet Show, snacking away, razzing the other PCs with humorous asides, and in general having a whee of a time.  Because THEY are down THERE being chased around by various horrible nasties while we were up above placidly marching along the Sakbe road until the PCs came popping up out of some other hole in the ground in a manner not unlike a champagne cork.

"It appears that Origo and his companions have distrubed yet another Nameless Horror of the Ancients, Glorious General."

"So it does, Chirine, so it does.  My compliments to the Kasis of the second and third crossbow cohorts and request they take care of the matter, would you be so kind?"

The "supplies expended" reports Chirine used to come up with for me to sign were pretty choice too.

"75 bolts, crossbow, used for extermination of menace, unnamed, large, crawling, slimy, legless, five headed, pale tan-grey color, one each."

OK, that made me laugh, too.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;864675Or like the night where the player at the other end of the table wanted to do his Imperial tax returns, and it took all night as he was an accountant in real life. We were all bored out of our brains, so I ran the 'Breakfast on the Bastion" scene from "Four Musketeers" down at our end of the table as we were at the Siege of Sunraya and felt the need to contribute to the war effort. (We'd just gotten back from Blackmoor, and had to discuss our options in privacy. Sooo...) We had a great time (in whispers of course, so as not to be rude) and Phil wanted to be playing down at our end of the table so badly it hurt to see...

Just a semi random thought, but did that happen before or after you got your clans?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;864676Precisely! :) We used to have great fun doing up forms like this, and handing them in, just to see the look on Phil's face. He tried so hard to keep from laughing, but it never worked... :)

"Oi! You!, Yes, I mean you, trooper Kagesh! Those crossbow bolts cost the Glorious General 1 Kaitar, 3 Quirgal, and 4 Hlash (1 GP, 3 SP, & 4 CP, in today's money; we only bought the good stuff) each; don't waste ammunition, soldier."

Oh, the exciting life of the staff officer... :)

A kaitar for a single bolt?!?
Why didn't you shoot gold?
Or that's what I imagine a Tsolyani bureaucrat saying, at least.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;864663I could have played a secondary character, I suppose, but I WANTED to play Molkar/Kerdu Korunme.  I wanted to prosecute the war and smite the perfidious Yan Koryani hip and thigh.

And though there were some dull nights when I didn't do much (like when the other PCs wanted to do politics while we picked sand out of our kilts) there was an AWFUL lot of Chirine and I sitting in the corner rather like Statler and Waldorf from The Muppet Show, snacking away, razzing the other PCs with humorous asides, and in general having a whee of a time.  Because THEY are down THERE being chased around by various horrible nasties while we were up above placidly marching along the Sakbe road until the PCs came popping up out of some other hole in the ground in a manner not unlike a champagne cork.

"It appears that Origo and his companions have distrubed yet another Nameless Horror of the Ancients, Glorious General."

"So it does, Chirine, so it does.  My compliments to the Kasis of the second and third crossbow cohorts and request they take care of the matter, would you be so kind?"

The "supplies expended" reports Chirine used to come up with for me to sign were pretty choice too.

"75 bolts, crossbow, used for extermination of menace, unnamed, large, crawling, slimy, legless, five headed, pale tan-grey color, one each."

You really crack me up!!! I could just imagine you two...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B0neB1b29l8

Hilarious!!!

H :0)

Quote from: AsenRG;864729A kaitar for a single bolt?!?
Why didn't you shoot gold?
Or that's what I imagine a Tsolyani bureaucrat saying, at least.

We bought steel-headed quarrels rather like the top center one in this picture.

https://www.google.com/search?q=crossbow+quarrel+heads&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAmoVChMIk5qSosaWyQIVR0YmCh0_hgEA&biw=1280&bih=864#tbm=isch&q=crossbow+quarrel+square+head&imgrc=IOJPe6_5cUSwJM%3A

Any kind of arrowhead is okay against light troops, but those square heads would shred mail like tissue and were pretty good against Chlen hide plate too.

Phil and Chirine and I had all read Payne-Gallway's "The Crossbow".

Quote from: Greentongue;864710I get the feeling that the current imagining of Playing in Tekumel is like a game of "The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air" in an alien setting.
Am I wrong or is this what all the focus on clan is to facilitate?

I've never seen 'Fresh Prince of Bel-Air' so I'm afraid I can't respond to that.

And no, I've never run a Tekumel game.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;864821We bought steel-headed quarrels rather like the top center one in this picture.

You realize there are ten quarrels in the top row, right? The center one is which one?

Fifth from the left, tanged rather than socketed.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;864829Fifth from the left, tanged rather than socketed.

I'm surprised.

That one has four rather blunt "points" rather than a single point which would create a striking surface that is more than 4x larger in area than any of the other points. Which would spread the force of the blow across more than 4 times the area since the points are blunter. I would think that would be far worse penetration for the same amount of force than any of the other bolts.

In addition, the point does not taper, in fact the width of the point increases behind the head would also tend to make a deep penetration more difficult.

Granted the head looks more massive than most of the others which should increase the force of the blow. But the head of, say the one in the top row, third from the right (which is also tanged) looks to be almost as massive as the fifth from the left and it has a single needle pointed tip. I would think that would have better penetration, akin to a bodkin pointed arrow compared to a broad tipped hunting arrow.

Am I missing something here?

I think the idea is that we're shooting at either unarmored people or in chlen-hide armor; the latter is like an engineering plastic - I showed Phil a Delrin plate that I'd gotten from my engineer dad, and he really thought that it was a very good approximation - and does tend to shatter under forceful impacts. Chlen hide is about as tough as bronze, but more 'frangible'. It's why steel or other metal armor makes such a difference in Tekumel's combat.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;864850I think the idea is that we're shooting at either unarmored people or in chlen-hide armor; the latter is like an engineering plastic - I showed Phil a Delrin plate that I'd gotten from my engineer dad, and he really thought that it was a very good approximation - and does tend to shatter under forceful impacts. Chlen hide is about as tough as bronze, but more 'frangible'. It's why steel or other metal armor makes such a difference in Tekumel's combat.

Can you expand on that?  Wouldn't it make parries with a Chen blade rather risky?
I mean,  would you even parry with the flat, and how much does a blade bend and vibrate upon impact?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;864821Any kind of arrowhead is okay against light troops, but those square heads would shred mail like tissue and were pretty good against Chlen hide plate too.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;864850I think the idea is that we're shooting at either unarmored people or in chlen-hide armor; the latter is like an engineering plastic - I showed Phil a Delrin plate that I'd gotten from my engineer dad, and he really thought that it was a very good approximation - and does tend to shatter under forceful impacts. Chlen hide is about as tough as bronze, but more 'frangible'. It's why steel or other metal armor makes such a difference in Tekumel's combat.

What you are saying seems to be that penetration is not an issue since the opponent is either unarmored or in armor that shatters on impact. That seems contrary to what Gronan said, which was that the advantage of the square point was against armored, not unarmored targets e.g. "shred mail like tissue".

Hopefully Gronan will pop back in and clarify.

Quote from: AsenRG;864880Can you expand on that?  Wouldn't it make parries with a Chen blade rather risky?
I mean,  would you even parry with the flat, and how much does a blade bend and vibrate upon impact?

Good question.

My assumption was that chlen hide weapons were kind of equivalent to bronze, i.e. not glass-like or completely fragile, but significantly more fragile than tempered iron or steel. I believe treated chlen-hide may be lighter than bronze though.

The common use of a material inferior to iron/steel always seemed to be one of the similarities of Tekumel to Glorantha.

The square headed quarrels were considered "armor piercing."  A sharp bodkin point MIGHT pop the rivets on a mail shirt, but also had the danger of breaking.  I'm basing my comments on Payne-Gallway; the square headed quarrel was very popular in the Middle Ages.

I'm no longer au courant on the physics.  For that matter it's been over 25 years since I read Payne-Gallway.

Quote from: AsenRG;864880Can you expand on that?  Wouldn't it make parries with a Chen blade rather risky?
I mean,  would you even parry with the flat, and how much does a blade bend and vibrate upon impact?

Well, we tried to figure this all out back in the early days, and until we made some weapons out of engineering plastic we were stumped. The key to the thing is to have a hard cutting edge and a soft backbone. Phil was also of the opinion that the fighting styles were a lot more 'eastern' then 'western', with a lot more slashing and parrying in big swoopy curves; hence the hooks and curves on a lot of his weapons. Tekumel armor reflects this - a lot of deflecting surfaces for glancing blows, rather then the 'head on' attacks you see in a lot of medieval styles.

It's the difference between a tulwar and a broadsword, if I can use that simile.

Quote from: Bren;864890What you are saying seems to be that penetration is not an issue since the opponent is either unarmored or in armor that shatters on impact. That seems contrary to what Gronan said, which was that the advantage of the square point was against armored, not unarmored targets e.g. "shred mail like tissue".

Hopefully Gronan will pop back in and clarify.

Yep. It only takes something like two to three inches to get a serious wound from penetration, I've been told, so the shock value of the bolt hitting somebody was pretty useful.

See also Payne-Gallway; Sir Ralph shot a lot of botls at a lot of different types of targets in different types of armor. I'll have a look in my copy and see if I can't locate the test results.

Quote from: Bren;864892Good question.

My assumption was that chlen hide weapons were kind of equivalent to bronze, i.e. not glass-like or completely fragile, but significantly more fragile than tempered iron or steel. I believe treated chlen-hide may be lighter than bronze though.

The common use of a material inferior to iron/steel always seemed to be one of the similarities of Tekumel to Glorantha.

Your assumption is exactly the way Phil looked at the subject. As light as plastic, but as 'hard' as bronze. So it's got some advantages, but the plates have to be made right; the best chlen-hide armor has a hard layer on the outside, but a softer layer as a backing - think laminated 'safety glass'. Normally, the stuff works just fine, but a badly-made plate or sword will shatter if hit in the right way - roll on the table; I think it's in S&G, but I'll look.

Agreed; it's also a typical 1940s - 1950s SF trope, as well, which is where I think Phil got it from.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;864895The square headed quarrels were considered "armor piercing."  A sharp bodkin point MIGHT pop the rivets on a mail shirt, but also had the danger of breaking.  I'm basing my comments on Payne-Gallway; the square headed quarrel was very popular in the Middle Ages.

I'm no longer au courant on the physics.  For that matter it's been over 25 years since I read Payne-Gallway.

This. I'll look in my copy. :)

Square faced bolt heads
Payne-Gallweystates that these bolts were used against armoured oppnents "Other bolts had square-faced heads with four small points, one at each corner of the head, so that they might not glance off armour, but give a straight and smashing blow to mounted men wearing breastplates and helmets, against which the end of a sharp projectile might break, bend, or turn aside."

From this site:  http://www.themcs.org/weaponry/crossbows/crossbows.htm
which has some good pictures about halfway down the page.

Well. While I don't always learn something new everyday, I did today. Thanks all. :)

Thinking in context of the quote, I'm guessing the bodkin pointed arrows breaking or glancing were less of an issue than for a crossbow bolt due to the greater number of arrows fired per archer.

Compared to the longbowman, the crossbowman needed to make each quarrel count so a different design makes sense.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;864822I've never seen 'Fresh Prince of Bel-Air' so I'm afraid I can't respond to that.

It is the "adventures" of a street-smart teenager from West Philadelphia who is sent to move in with his wealthy aunt and uncle in their Bel Air mansion after getting into a fight on a local basketball court. In the series, his lifestyle often clashes with the lifestyle of his relatives in Bel Air.

So, I was thinking that the country bumpkin newly arrived in the Big City Clanhouse could be that sort of dynamic.

While you profess to not enjoy political style games, others do and they seem to be directing the trend.

I was specifically wondering if you ever had to deal with that type of thing.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;864822And no, I've never run a Tekumel game.

Any reason that is so?
Just not a GM kinda guy or this inaccessibility that people talk about effected you too?
=

Quote from: Greentongue;864930Any reason that is so?
Just not a GM kinda guy or this inaccessibility that people talk about effected you too?
=

He runs other stuff. OD&Dish stuff. He's practically the antithesis of the GM is an inaccessible role available to the select and enlightened few. Nearly anyone can be the DM and make up some shit they think is fun.

Quote from: Bren;864934He runs other stuff. OD&Dish stuff. He's practically the antithesis of the GM is an inaccessible role available to the select and enlightened few. Nearly anyone can be the DM and make up some shit they think is fun.

* sniff *  They grow up so fast...

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;864957* sniff *  They grow up so fast...

:D I was kind of shocked anyone didn't know your spiel by heart by now. You certainly natter on about it often enough. :p

Of course its easier for me since I learned to be a DM/GM/Referee via  the really arcane and difficult process of reading the rules to OD&D then giving being the DM a try. Just like all the other folks I knew in that wave of gaming. Since then I've seen lots of other people with entirely different skills sets, backgrounds, and interests do a fine job of being a DM/GM/Referee by the really arcane and difficult process of giving it a try.

So it would never occur to me that being a DM/GM/Referee was particularly esoteric, arcane, or difficult. It does require a certain level of general intelligence, creativity, and effort. I've played with a few people who were actually not bright enough to be a decent GM. But they are by far the exceptions. Somewhat more often I encounter someone who either doesn't have the interest in exercising their creativity in that direction - which is fine - or who just isn't willing to do enough work to be an adequate GM. Even improvisational GMing requires some minimal effort outside the sessions, for record keeping if for nothing else. If you aren't willing to exert yourself even that much, its better for everyone if you stick to playing.

Quote from: AsenRG;864880Can you expand on that?  Wouldn't it make parries with a Chen blade rather risky?
I mean,  would you even parry with the flat, and how much does a blade bend and vibrate upon impact?

Well, this was LONG before ARMA started their researches.  If I were to reassess the question now, dunno what I'd think.

Quote from: Melichor;864910Square faced bolt heads
Payne-Gallweystates that these bolts were used against armoured oppnents "Other bolts had square-faced heads with four small points, one at each corner of the head, so that they might not glance off armour, but give a straight and smashing blow to mounted men wearing breastplates and helmets, against which the end of a sharp projectile might break, bend, or turn aside."

From this site:  http://www.themcs.org/weaponry/crossbows/crossbows.htm
which has some good pictures about halfway down the page.

What a great site! Thank you!!! and thank you for finding the quote, too! :)

Quote from: Bren;864911Well. While I don't always learn something new everyday, I did today. Thanks all. :)

Thinking in context of the quote, I'm guessing the bodkin pointed arrows breaking or glancing were less of an issue than for a crossbow bolt due to the greater number of arrows fired per archer.

Compared to the longbowman, the crossbowman needed to make each quarrel count so a different design makes sense.

I think you have it, here; this all makes a lot of sense! Now I can say that I've learned something today! :)

Quote from: Bren;864892Good question.

My assumption was that chlen hide weapons were kind of equivalent to bronze, i.e. not glass-like or completely fragile, but significantly more fragile than tempered iron or steel. I believe treated chlen-hide may be lighter than bronze though.

The common use of a material inferior to iron/steel always seemed to be one of the similarities of Tekumel to Glorantha.

Well, "lighter than bronze" would be, in itself, a significant advantage against an unarmoured enemy. I don't know how much the speed and ease of changing directions of knives come from the center of gravity and how much comes from the weight...but it's quite likely going to be faster and harder to defend against than a metal sword.

Agreed on the similarities between Glorantha and Tekumel. But don't tell that to people that are fans of only one of those settings...:)
(Actually, I find a lot of similarities between these two and Creation as well. As well as more than superficial similarities with Jorune...including how hard Jorune material is to obtain).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;864905Well, we tried to figure this all out back in the early days, and until we made some weapons out of engineering plastic we were stumped. The key to the thing is to have a hard cutting edge and a soft backbone. Phil was also of the opinion that the fighting styles were a lot more 'eastern' then 'western', with a lot more slashing and parrying in big swoopy curves; hence the hooks and curves on a lot of his weapons. Tekumel armor reflects this - a lot of deflecting surfaces for glancing blows, rather then the 'head on' attacks you see in a lot of medieval styles.

It's the difference between a tulwar and a broadsword, if I can use that simile.

Weren't the weapons modeled after Phil's collection?
And I'd say there's lots of sweeping curves with Western-style swords, too. Though there's definitely more of them when you use a saber... interestingly, though, concave weapons seem to facilitate "head on", or rather, "head off" attacks, being nearly perfect for both styles!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;864907Your assumption is exactly the way Phil looked at the subject. As light as plastic, but as 'hard' as bronze. So it's got some advantages, but the plates have to be made right; the best chlen-hide armor has a hard layer on the outside, but a softer layer as a backing - think laminated 'safety glass'. Normally, the stuff works just fine, but a badly-made plate or sword will shatter if hit in the right way - roll on the table; I think it's in S&G, but I'll look.

Agreed; it's also a typical 1940s - 1950s SF trope, as well, which is where I think Phil got it from.

So, it's like a katana. They can also shatter if struck in a given point of the blade;).
Of course, later you upgrade when you've got the money.

Quote from: Melichor;864910Square faced bolt heads
Payne-Gallweystates that these bolts were used against armoured oppnents "Other bolts had square-faced heads with four small points, one at each corner of the head, so that they might not glance off armour, but give a straight and smashing blow to mounted men wearing breastplates and helmets, against which the end of a sharp projectile might break, bend, or turn aside."

From this site:  http://www.themcs.org/weaponry/crossbows/crossbows.htm
which has some good pictures about halfway down the page.

Yeah, all these rounded plates weren't helping normal arrows to transfer their power:D.

Quote from: Bren;864963:D I was kind of shocked anyone didn't know your spiel by heart by now. You certainly natter on about it often enough. :p

Of course its easier for me since I learned to be a DM/GM/Referee via  the really arcane and difficult process of reading the rules to OD&D then giving being the DM a try. Just like all the other folks I knew in that wave of gaming. Since then I've seen lots of other people with entirely different skills sets, backgrounds, and interests do a fine job of being a DM/GM/Referee by the really arcane and difficult process of giving it a try.

So it would never occur to me that being a DM/GM/Referee was particularly esoteric, arcane, or difficult. It does require a certain level of general intelligence, creativity, and effort. I've played with a few people who were actually not bright enough to be a decent GM. But they are by far the exceptions. Somewhat more often I encounter someone who either doesn't have the interest in exercising their creativity in that direction - which is fine - or who just isn't willing to do enough work to be an adequate GM. Even improvisational GMing requires some minimal effort outside the sessions, for record keeping if for nothing else. If you aren't willing to exert yourself even that much, its better for everyone if you stick to playing.

+1 to all of this, though I learned much later, using GURPS.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;865021Well, this was LONG before ARMA started their researches.  If I were to reassess the question now, dunno what I'd think.

I'm asking from the point of view of someone who was trained by HEMA, though. Well, you can make a case for me being influenced by some local "styles", but they're virtually unknown, so let's stick to HEMA as a common point of reference.
So, how hard would it be to defend "properly" (meaning letting it slide off the flat in order not to hurt the cutting edge)? And how hard it would be to preserve your blade from breaking against someone who is also defending "properly", blade to your flat:p?
I must note that the last one is also really popular with Eastern styles that employ big sweeping curving motions;).

Quote from: AsenRG;865046I'm asking from the point of view of someone who was trained by HEMA, though. Well, you can make a case for me being influenced by some local "styles", but they're virtually unknown, so let's stick to HEMA as a common point of reference.
So, how hard would it be to defend "properly" (meaning letting it slide off the flat in order not to hurt the cutting edge)? And how hard it would be to preserve your blade from breaking against someone who is also defending "properly", blade to your flat:p?
I must note that the last one is also really popular with Eastern styles that employ big sweeping curving motions;).

ARMA, HEMA, potato, po tah to.

In either case I haven't reassessed the question, so your hypothesis is as good as mine.  Many Tsolyani weapons have considerable hand protection, and I expect Chlen hide vs Chlen hide to be a tossup.  Phil's art does not show, but would not forbid, reinforcing ribs et al either.

But this is all pure pre-coffee speculation.

Quote from: Greentongue;864930Any reason that is so?
Just not a GM kinda guy or this inaccessibility that people talk about effected you too?
=

I cut my teeth on the concept that every person ran their own setting.  Tekumel was Phil's game, Ram's Horn is mine.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;865325I cut my teeth on the concept that every person ran their own setting.  Tekumel was Phil's game, Ram's Horn is mine.

That was the tradition back then, wasn't it? A GM would devise a world, and then run adventures in it.

(This may have come from the miniatures 'campaign' concept, like the one I did with the world as it was in the 1660s, and which revolved around the adventures of John Churchill and the Tangier garrison; the French were constantly plotting with the Arabs to capture the town, and everyone was exploring Darkest Africa - think "The Three Musketeers" meet H. Rider Haggard. This was the campaign where the map had the directions 'Up', 'Down', 'Left', and 'Right' and with none of this hex map nonsense, either; you stepped off your distances with a dividers, like educated people. Top of the line period technology all the way, that was our style.)

Oh, those were the days! Fighting our way through The Piddles (Upper and Lower), the Slaughters, and through High, Middle, and Lo! And Behold. Gronan had gotten his mitts on a large-scale map of southern England, and these are the actual village names...

"On to Piddle, lads!"

Glory Days
=

Quote from: chirine ba kal;865359Oh, those were the days! Fighting our way through The Piddles (Upper and Lower), the Slaughters, and through High, Middle, and Lo! And Behold. Gronan had gotten his mitts on a large-scale map of southern England, and these are the actual village names...

"On to Piddle, lads!"

Awww, you remembered!  :o

One chapter in my book is describing how I took a 17 x 22 map of England from National Geographic and turned it into a series of hex maps with each 5mm hex equalling two miles.  In the late 70s.  Hint:  Does the term "opaque projector" mean anything to you?

And after splashing through the Piddles, we could climb the Mumbles and go to Dorking.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;865480Awww, you remembered!  :o

One chapter in my book is describing how I took a 17 x 22 map of England from National Geographic and turned it into a series of hex maps with each 5mm hex equalling two miles.  In the late 70s.  Hint:  Does the term "opaque projector" mean anything to you?

And after splashing through the Piddles, we could climb the Mumbles and go to Dorking.

It's me job, mate. :)

Same here. To make the battlefield scenery 'ground sheets' for Phil's battles of Ry and the Temple of Chanis, I had his maps scanned in, printed out as transparencies,  and projected them up on Home Depot canvas painters' drop cloths with an overhead projector. After that, I managed to get an opaque projector - simpler and faster. These days, I use the LCD projector. Still use the drop cloths, though; they are dirt cheap for all the canvas you get. And very few seams, too!

Ah, we were young and naive back in those far-off days, weren't we? Here we all thought we were having some innocent fun over pizza, snacks, and sodas; we had no idea that decades later, learned sages would be poring over the musty debris of our games and peering into flickering Devices of the Ancients to parse and dissect every word we'd leave behind.

(If I had known, I would have left behind much more juicy stuff; Jon Peterson would be banned in Boston.)

And it was spring; the Piddle was in full flood. I had to change my armor, 'cause I got all soaked. I think I caught a cold, too...

"WAZOO!" screamed Pepsi, sneezing violently.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;865489"WAZOO!" screamed Pepsi, sneezing violently.

Oh, sob! Does anyone besides the two of us remember this timeless classic?

"White robes for white magic?"

"No, white robes for surrender!"

"Such magic," sighed Pepsi.

:)

(Remember the night we all chorused "Dribble, Dribble, pass, shoot!" as Phil rolled out his latest horde of Undead minions down in the Temple of Sarku? The look of utter bafflement on his was priceless...)

Quote from: chirine ba kal;865493Oh, sob! Does anyone besides the two of us remember this timeless classic?

A few others. But only a few.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;865493Oh, sob! Does anyone besides the two of us remember this timeless classic?

"White robes for white magic?"

"No, white robes for surrender!"

"Such magic," sighed Pepsi.

:)

"Pepsi's bloodied his pug again, and Moxie's getting cranky."

How many times did we say that about Origo and Kadlesh?

Not to mention "and if I had fifty pounds of cement and a couple of sacks you'd both have gone for a stroll in the pond an hour ago."

Quote from: chirine ba kal;865493(Remember the night we all chorused "Dribble, Dribble, pass, shoot!" as Phil rolled out his latest horde of Undead minions down in the Temple of Sarku? The look of utter bafflement on his was priceless...)

Yes.  Yes, I do.  We were giggling like a bunch of teenage girls on nitrous oxide and Phil was utterly clueless.

Then some time later he produced his "Temple of Sarku" tape and scared the living shit out of all of us.  Hell's bells, I KNOW it was just him and some multitrack tape, but DAMNATION it's frightful!

Quote from: Bren;865494A few others. But only a few.

Alas, alackaday, and wooja wooja woo, few remember the tales of those days when many pointless and annoying deeds were done to trouble the councils of the Small and the Silly.

Speaking of, whatever DID happen to that tape Phil did of the ceremony at the Temple of Sarku?

And, of course, any time we REALLY wanted to get on Phil's nerves we'd start speaking in Groaci.

"Adjutanter!  Adjutanter!  To be ordering the crossbow troops to commence extermination of indigenous hostiles instanter!"

"To be complying with all haste, Glorious General!"

* another character hurries over * "General!  To be imploring you not to abandon the other player characters!"

"To be silent, littermate of drones!  To be telling you that the sacrifice of a few paltry hedge-wizards and minor priests is a small price to pay for the glory of the Petal Throne!  Besides, to need only one more skirmish to write up in dispatches to get another Gold of Glory!"

Yes, folks, we really did.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;865498"Pepsi's bloodied his pug again, and Moxie's getting cranky."

How many times did we say that about Origo and Kadlesh?

Not to mention "and if I had fifty pounds of cement and a couple of sacks you'd both have gone for a stroll in the pond an hour ago."




Yes.  Yes, I do.  We were giggling like a bunch of teenage girls on nitrous oxide and Phil was utterly clueless.

Then some time later he produced his "Temple of Sarku" tape and scared the living shit out of all of us.  Hell's bells, I KNOW it was just him and some multitrack tape, but DAMNATION it's frightful!

1. Every other Thursday Night, 1980 to 1987. Gods, those two could 'find an adventure' in an otherwise totally empty landscape.

2. We had to explain it, to him, and I had to loan him my first edition of the book. Big, big mistake, that... :)

3. It's still spine-shivering today, Glorious General; I play it every now the then for my new players, and it never fails... :)

Quote from: Bren;865494A few others. But only a few.

Oh, dear... :)

Quote from: chirine ba kal;8655071. Every other Thursday Night, 1980 to 1987. Gods, those two could 'find an adventure' in an otherwise totally empty landscape.

God's holy trousers, ain't THAT the truth.  If ever two people were born to play "Moxie and Pepsi Dingleberry, a pair of useless, tail-wagging idiots.  They were noisome and easily expendable."

Reasonably bright lads in most circumstances, but get them together and give them dice and utter chaos broke loose.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;865505Speaking of, whatever DID happen to that tape Phil did of the ceremony at the Temple of Sarku?

Well - according to Phil, the summer before he passed away - his original 'went missing' sometime in the late 1990s; he suspected that one of his players had 'borrowed it' and not returned it.

When Carl Brodt (of Tita's House of Games, of course) wanted to do a CD of the Tsolyani language tape Phil did for us, we went back into my archives and dug out the first-generation copy of the Temple tape and my master tape for the language tape. The Missus used her software to re-master the two tapes, cleaning them up a little bit but retaining the 'analog feel', and then we produced them for Carl. The CD is now in limbo, after the Tekumel Foundation pulled Carl's publication license; we offered the digital files, as well as our other audio archives, to the Foundation while I was working for them, but I was rebuffed - no interest on their part. (They didn't want copies, either. Beats me why not.) The Temple portion of the CD has the Sarku ceremony, the excerpt from The Lament to the Wheel of Black, and the Ksarul ceremony.

So, like all the taped interviews that we did with Phil back in the 1980s, the audio tapes all sit on my shelves in the game lounge, and the digital file versions in both hard storage and up in the cloud storage we have.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;865506And, of course, any time we REALLY wanted to get on Phil's nerves we'd start speaking in Groaci.

"Adjutanter!  Adjutanter!  To be ordering the crossbow troops to commence extermination of indigenous hostiles instanter!"

"To be complying with all haste, Glorious General!"

* another character hurries over * "General!  To be imploring you not to abandon the other player characters!"

"To be silent, littermate of drones!  To be telling you that the sacrifice of a few paltry hedge-wizards and minor priests is a small price to pay for the glory of the Petal Throne!  Besides, to need only one more skirmish to write up in dispatches to get another Gold of Glory!"

Yes, folks, we really did.

Ah, Retief! To be once again delighted and infuriated by the Soft One!!! :)

'Gamesmanship'. We did a lot of 'gamesmanship', back in Ye Olden Dayes. I have lost count of how many times Gronan would break out into a rash when I'd ask him to stop for a moment at the hobby store "to pick up a little something..."  :)

(Do we need footnotes, in these threads? I ask from a purely didactic standpoint here, Oh Sage.)

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;865509God's holy trousers, ain't THAT the truth.  If ever two people were born to play "Moxie and Pepsi Dingleberry, a pair of useless, tail-wagging idiots.  They were noisome and easily expendable."

Reasonably bright lads in most circumstances, but get them together and give them dice and utter chaos broke loose.

Oh, tell me about it. No matter where or when, those two were able to get into Very Serious Trouble at the drop of a Priest of Ksarul's square headdress. It did not help - not at all! - that Origo was Turshanmu's nephew; Uncle Wizard would drop in from time to time to see how his nephew was doing, and pandemonium would instantly result. Turshanmu is about the nicest and kindest of the Undying Wizards, but also the least competent. He'd cast a spell, and then we're tremble to hear him say his trademark line: "Oh, bother."

Gods. Dear, oh dear, oh dear Gods.

It's also probably my fault, too. Arneson's first ship had the Tsolyani for the Millenium Falcon as her name ("She'll do point nine past Ngastu Head!" - Harchar/Arneson to Phil), and Origo's full name was the Tsolyani for 'Luke Skywalker'. It took Phil months to get the jokes, and then my butt was toast.

This is the latest update in my game by a character:
"Seems the only thing being validated here is slavery, poverty, and squalor. A man can not dream or become what he dreams of being, because his station will not allow it. Being a victim of circumstance is not a privilege."

"I am surprised that things continue to function in this city. The impoverished, destitute, distraught, and discarded, easily outnumber the opposition 10 to 1. Maybe I need a change of vocation."

"It is a heavy weight to bear the death of a friend, I could have lost you to the Chaskeri. More importantly, the deaths of those I didn't know. I mean the porters, did their jobs well, but seriously they risked their lives and for what, to set on the steps of a shrine and watch another man die? Our actions aren't enabling or empowering them, they are entitled. How can we continue to improve society, if that is the mentality we encourage?"

Have I portrayed the world correctly or am I doing it wrong?

Is this how you envisioned it and were able to overcome/thrive?
=

Quote from: chirine ba kal;865508Oh, dear... :)

It's so true. Since I've been here it's been a complete education. A whole "older" world has been opened up to me. Things that I would never have know about because I was born fifteen or so years too late. My father was never into Sci-fi or fantasy. He was more into Gangster and War movies. As he would say "real" things. I was left to discover fantasy and Sci-fi on my own. As a young person in the 80's, I look back and see that my younger days were dominated by Star Wars and Tolkien...

That's why for me, your stories and the General's are so great. Much thanks for both of your time. Excellent.

H :0)

Quote from: Hrugga;865544It's so true. Since I've been here it's been a complete education. A whole "older" world has been opened up to me. Things that I would never have know about because I was born fifteen or so years too late. My father was never into Sci-fi or fantasy. He was more into Gangster and War movies. As he would say "real" things. I was left to discover fantasy and Sci-fi on my own. As a young person in the 80's, I look back and see that my younger days were dominated by Star Wars and Tolkien...

That's why for me, your stories and the General's are so great. Much thanks for both of your time. Excellent.

H :0)

I don't presume to speak for the Glorious General, but for my part you are most welcome. There are days when I think we lived in a very different world, with very different values and culture, and then I'm reminded that it was over thirty years ago. To borrow the famous quote:

"The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there." - L. P. Hartley

I have no idea if any of our antics and high-jinks all those years ago will have any resonance or relevance to what you and other folks are doing in their games; if they do, then please; take our memories and have fun with them.

"The sand of the desert is sodden red,—
Red with the wreck of a square that broke;—
The Gatling's jammed and the Colonel dead,
And the regiment blind with dust and smoke.
The river of death has brimmed his banks,
And England's far, and Honour a name,
But the voice of a schoolboy rallies the ranks:
"Play up! play up! and play the game!"
-Sir Henry Newbolt

Quote from: Greentongue;865535This is the latest update in my game by a character:
"Seems the only thing being validated here is slavery, poverty, and squalor. A man can not dream or become what he dreams of being, because his station will not allow it. Being a victim of circumstance is not a privilege."

"I am surprised that things continue to function in this city. The impoverished, destitute, distraught, and discarded, easily outnumber the opposition 10 to 1. Maybe I need a change of vocation."

"It is a heavy weight to bear the death of a friend, I could have lost you to the Chaskeri. More importantly, the deaths of those I didn't know. I mean the porters, did their jobs well, but seriously they risked their lives and for what, to set on the steps of a shrine and watch another man die? Our actions aren't enabling or empowering them, they are entitled. How can we continue to improve society, if that is the mentality we encourage?"

Have I portrayed the world correctly or am I doing it wrong?

Is this how you envisioned it and were able to overcome/thrive?
=

As I said in Chirine's thread, this reminds me of about the time I finally got pulled out of the Eastern Desert.

When you're lying there out on the Afghani plains,
And their women come out to carve up your remians,
Just roll on your rifle and blow out your brains,
And go to your God like a soldier.

-- Sir Rudyard Kipling

Quote from: Hrugga;865544It's so true. Since I've been here it's been a complete education. A whole "older" world has been opened up to me. Things that I would never have know about because I was born fifteen or so years too late. My father was never into Sci-fi or fantasy. He was more into Gangster and War movies. As he would say "real" things. I was left to discover fantasy and Sci-fi on my own. As a young person in the 80's, I look back and see that my younger days were dominated by Star Wars and Tolkien...

That's why for me, your stories and the General's are so great. Much thanks for both of your time. Excellent.

H :0)

I'm delighted to hear it.  My personal regret in that area is that I didn't discover Barsoom until I was in my 20s.  My brothers had all the Tarzan books but I never read a single one; the idea never appealed to me.

If you haven't, go read Barsoom, and Conan, and Fafhrd and the Mouser, and Dying Earth.

THEN go run a game of D&D.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;865566I'm delighted to hear it.  My personal regret in that area is that I didn't discover Barsoom until I was in my 20s.  My brothers had all the Tarzan books but I never read a single one; the idea never appealed to me.

If you haven't, go read Barsoom, and Conan, and Fafhrd and the Mouser, and Dying Earth.

THEN go run a game of D&D.

Gronan, it is just funny how different your idea about D&D is from the one I was introduced to:D!

Barsoom was a revelayion to me - I had read the others on your list long before the unfairly maligned John Carter caused me to start reading ERBs works and I don't think I've read anything thing that captures the feel of a D&D campaign better than these books - Burroughs seems just like a DM that is staying just steps ahead of his players while stitching together whatever new entertaining notions come to mind into a puported tour of the ancient reality of his created world.

I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, Glorious General, but I thought you'd want to know.

Another one gone; Hy Berman passed away on Sunday; he was ninety. I just found out tonight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BO8OwxSwHus (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BO8OwxSwHus)

Wasn't his period, I know, but I think it conveys my mood tonight.

Will the General like the legion to form ranks and salute?

It would please me well.  My thanks.

Also, my compliments to the standard bearer and have him affix the Meshqu of Grievous Morning to the staff.

When you started playing in Jakalla, what let you know you were not just playing in "The City State of the Invincible Overlord" with a different name?
=

Well, the fact that "City State of the Invincible Overlord" hadn't been published yet was a big FUCKING clue.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;867137Well, the fact that "City State of the Invincible Overlord" hadn't been published yet was a big FUCKING clue.

I doubt many of us know or remember when you entered Jakalla. I certainly didn't remember that it was before 1976.

Sorry, I thought we'd talked about that in Chirine's thread.  I started playing EPT in 1974.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;867143Sorry, I thought we'd talked about that in Chirine's thread.  I started playing EPT in 1974.

You probably did say that. I probably read it more than once. Do you really expect all of us to remember that? Because it you do, prepare to be disappointed old man. :p

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;866975It would please me well.  My thanks.

Also, my compliments to the standard bearer and have him affix the Meshqu of Grievous Morning to the staff.

By your command; Sir!

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;867137Well, the fact that "City State of the Invincible Overlord" hadn't been published yet was a big FUCKING clue.

So, I am to assume that was the ONLY DIFFERENCE initially? :p

Seriously, how different did Jakalla feel from what you expected from an over populated fantasy city?
=

Quote from: Greentongue;867271So, I am to assume that was the ONLY DIFFERENCE initially? :p

Seriously, how different did Jakalla feel from what you expected from an over populated fantasy city?
=

Okay, that question is a bit clearer.  (I tend to be rather literal minded; when you asked about City State, that's what I focused on.)

From the moment Phil first appeared with his sets of green ditto copied booklets he talked incessantly about how different Tekumel was... "not just the usual pseudo medieval pastiche."  We were savages who had nothing and did not speak the language, locked away in a slum of "untouchables."  We couldn't even leave without a citizen escorting us.

It was obvious from the first moment that we weren't in Kansas anymore.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;867295Okay, that question is a bit clearer.  (I tend to be rather literal minded; when you asked about City State, that's what I focused on.)

From the moment Phil first appeared with his sets of green ditto copied booklets he talked incessantly about how different Tekumel was... "not just the usual pseudo medieval pastiche."  We were savages who had nothing and did not speak the language, locked away in a slum of "untouchables."  We couldn't even leave without a citizen escorting us.

It was obvious from the first moment that we weren't in Kansas anymore.

You know, I don't think we ever put down roots anywhere other then Jakalla. I mean, we spent a lot of time up in Khirgar, but we never really seemed to feel 'at home' there. Same thing for Bey Sy; too much politics there, I think. Jakalla always felt like home; it's where we'd usually come back to after yet another harrowing adventure to distant climes...

Oh mighty Gronan, what is your word on this tome;)?

http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/139125/Barons-of-Braunstein

The name strikes me (I dodge!) as something you have mentioned...:D

Quote from: AsenRG;872827Oh mighty Gronan, what is your word on this tome;)?

http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/139125/Barons-of-Braunstein

The name strikes me (I dodge!) as something you have mentioned...:D

Well, huh.  Never seen it, but if Dave had some involvement I think it might at least be worth a look especially at the price.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;872882Well, huh.  Never seen it, but if Dave had some involvement I think it might at least be worth a look especially at the price.

He didn't. The authors came out with the rules, and a bunch of us pointed out that Dave was still alive and should have been consulted. He got a hold of them, and worked something out. It's got very little about Braunsteins in it, I'm told, but apparently it is a nice set of medieval rules.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;872882Well, huh.  Never seen it, but if Dave had some involvement I think it might at least be worth a look especially at the price.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;872948He didn't. The authors came out with the rules, and a bunch of us pointed out that Dave was still alive and should have been consulted. He got a hold of them, and worked something out. It's got very little about Braunsteins in it, I'm told, but apparently it is a nice set of medieval rules.

Huh, that's surprising, given that Braunstein is in the title.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;872948He didn't. The authors came out with the rules, and a bunch of us pointed out that Dave was still alive and should have been consulted. He got a hold of them, and worked something out. It's got very little about Braunsteins in it, I'm told, but apparently it is a nice set of medieval rules.

Oh, it's THAT one.  Well, hell, if Dave's happy I'm happy.

And at that price you can't go too far wrong.

Quote from: AsenRG;872985Huh, that's surprising, given that Braunstein is in the title.

A lot of people thought that it was trying to cash in on A Big Name In Gaming, at the time, and took the authors to task on it. It turned out, from what I can tell, that the authors were fans who didn't know any better. Dave told me he'd gotten it all worked out with them.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;872988Oh, it's THAT one.  Well, hell, if Dave's happy I'm happy.

And at that price you can't go too far wrong.

Yep, it's that one. Sigh.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;872988Oh, it's THAT one.  Well, hell, if Dave's happy I'm happy.

And at that price you can't go too far wrong.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;873004A lot of people thought that it was trying to cash in on A Big Name In Gaming, at the time, and took the authors to task on it. It turned out, from what I can tell, that the authors were fans who didn't know any better. Dave told me he'd gotten it all worked out with them.

Well, at that price, I guess I'm going to support a fan effort, and see for myself:).

OK, just checked it. It's exactly as was mentioned in the thread. Nice, light rules, relatively little on actual Braunsteins-running:).

OTOH, it says it includes the "Braunstein in the Middle Ages" essay by David Wesely himself. As a dirty weselian hippy, according to my user title on this forum, I can't but approve;).

I admit that I can forgive a lot of flaws to a text that says plainly that history is the richest and most detailed setting of them all, so keep in mind I just might be a tad biased:D!

Quote from: AsenRG;873893OK, just checked it. It's exactly as was mentioned in the thread. Nice, light rules, relatively little on actual Braunsteins-running:).

OTOH, it says it includes the "Braunstein in the Middle Ages" essay by David Wesely himself. As a dirty weselian hippy, according to my user title on this forum, I can't but approve;).

I admit that I can forgive a lot of flaws to a text that says plainly that history is the richest and most detailed setting of them all, so keep in mind I just might be a tad biased:D!

Oh, agreed! You might want it just for the essay. I just wish they'd talked to dave before they published this, as it could have been a 'how-to' on how to run these games. Sigh.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;874011Oh, agreed! You might want it just for the essay. I just wish they'd talked to dave before they published this, as it could have been a 'how-to' on how to run these games. Sigh.

Well, I'm planning to start asking Braunstein questions in this thread, if you and Gronan would answer;).
Or could you persuade the good Major to come and open his own thread? Now that would be glorious:D!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;865493Oh, sob! Does anyone besides the two of us remember this timeless classic?

"Tim, Tim, Benzedrine
Hash Poo Valvoline
Clean, Clean, Clean for Gene
First, Second, Neutral, Park
Hie thee hence you leafy Narc!"

Quote from: AsenRG;874121Well, I'm planning to start asking Braunstein questions in this thread, if you and Gronan would answer;).
Or could you persuade the good Major to come and open his own thread? Now that would be glorious:D!

Ask away, if you like, or we could have a specific Braunstein thread.

Dave does not like or participate in RPG forums; he doesn't like fantasy in general, and plays historicals. I will ask, but don't get your hopes up.

Quote from: CRKrueger;874124"Tim, Tim, Benzedrine
Hash Poo Valvoline
Clean, Clean, Clean for Gene
First, Second, Neutral, Park
Hie thee hence you leafy Narc!"

Oh, bless you!!! :) "You are an educated person!" -Mike Ford, in "How Much For Just The Planet"

Quote from: chirine ba kal;874208Ask away, if you like, or we could have a specific Braunstein thread.

Dave does not like or participate in RPG forums; he doesn't like fantasy in general, and plays historicals. I will ask, but don't get your hopes up.

Would you mention that the guy that wants to ask questions, that is me, also strongly prefers historicals:D?

OK, I'll start a new thread either way.

In the meantime, Gronan, would you tell us how long it was before a new player started running his own dungeon, back in the 1973-1980?

Hoy Glorious General,

Just wondering about your experience with running Sir Robert Barthensville on Tekumel...How did the natives respond to him? How did he make out? I was kind of wanting to have a group of Conquistadores find their way into Bethorm myself...Thanks a bunch.

H:0)

Briefly, "not well."  Tekumel is so xenophobic it was "assimilate or die," complete with disguising his skin tone and hair color.

I would never do that now; I understand that Tekumel for Phil was about "experiencing life in the world," not "treading the jeweled thrones of earth beneath our sandaled feet."  The character was just a drastic mismatch for the game.

It was fun as hell to drag him out for one last hurrah, though.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;877520Briefly, "not well."  Tekumel is so xenophobic it was "assimilate or die," complete with disguising his skin tone and hair color.

I would never do that now; I understand that Tekumel for Phil was about "experiencing life in the world," not "treading the jeweled thrones of earth beneath our sandaled feet."  The character was just a drastic mismatch for the game.

It was fun as hell to drag him out for one last hurrah, though.

That's one thing I've learned from my time here. Tread with care...or else. Yeah, I see my little army of Conquistadores putting up a good fight for a time. Then eventually dead, enslaved, or taking The High Road. Unless The Petal Throne could find some use for them...fighting Ssu, or Hokun. Taking a vist to the other side of the globe. Who knows? Thanks.

H:0)

Quote from: Hrugga;877627That's one thing I've learned from my time here. Tread with care...or else. Yeah, I see my little army of Conquistadores putting up a good fight for a time. Then eventually dead, enslaved, or taking The High Road. Unless The Petal Throne could find some use for them...fighting Ssu, or Hokun. Taking a vist to the other side of the globe. Who knows? Thanks.

H:0)

If they were in the classical steel 'Spanish armor' we normally see in illustrations and the movies, they'd be offered some cash and a ticket out of town for their armor. If they didn't deal, they'd get dead in pretty short order for the metal. (Gronan's man-at-arms really did have a hard time of it, and wound up being a sort of 'hired thug' for one of the temples.) If they were in the more usual quilted and leather harness, they'd likely be hired out for some dirty Imperial job that us player-characters used to get tapped for. Either way, they'd be in for a really exciting and pretty tough time.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;877631If they were in the classical steel 'Spanish armor' we normally see in illustrations and the movies, they'd be offered some cash and a ticket out of town for their armor. If they didn't deal, they'd get dead in pretty short order for the metal. (Gronan's man-at-arms really did have a hard time of it, and wound up being a sort of 'hired thug' for one of the temples.) If they were in the more usual quilted and leather harness, they'd likely be hired out for some dirty Imperial job that us player-characters used to get tapped for. Either way, they'd be in for a really exciting and pretty tough time.

Jeez, I guess the wardogs would end up okay either way...

H;0)

Quote from: Hrugga;877634Jeez, I guess the wardogs would end up okay either way...

H;0)

The dogs would have it made; good food, lazy days, lots of lolling around the palace or temple looking fierce, and that's about all they'd have to do.

Why can't I get a job like that? :)

Quote from: chirine ba kal;877643The dogs would have it made; good food, lazy days, lots of lolling around the palace or temple looking fierce, and that's about all they'd have to do.

Why can't I get a job like that? :)

We're all discriminated against on account of being humans.