So I've been ocassionally been DMing for a few irl friends and I over the past few years in 5e, doing one-shots. I always thought until recently (a few months ago) that it was the best version of DnD. I started playing TTRPGs with Pathfinder five years ago with some friends online, and didn't like how complex everything was. 5e was like a breath of fresh air kinda in terms of how simplified it was from 3.5e/Pathfinder, yet now I see 5e as overly complicated after getting ahold of the ADnD core books and OSRIC and paging through them.
Everything seems so much simpler in the older systems and doesn't have the bloat newer systems contain. I enjoy just seeing "magic-user" instead of what are essentially just 3 of the same class with slightly altered spell trees, or not having multiple pages of sub-classes. I tried to get my irl friends to play OSRIC to see if they enjoy it and they say they like 5e more because of customization, yet I see it more as bloat than customization. Am I wrong on this, and how can I convince them to try OSRIC or even ADnD with me so I can see if I truly like it more than 5e?
Welcome to the site!
What you have is a common problem, it seems. You're not wrong to want to do this. There are many great OSR and non-5e games.
I've had success with just springing new games on my group, well really sub-sets of my regular group. Some of us had a board game night and I brought out my DCC book and said "hey check this out." Someone said "it would be cool to try when we had more time," and I said "I have pre-gens right here, my dude, let's go." That might work for your group.
You need to make it easy for them. Call a one-shot with pre-gens. Tell them there are some good ideas in the game you can steal for your regular 5e game. Sell it as an experiment with no commitment. And no advance study required, and be ready with all the rules. One-system-ism is an addiction, and you gotta make the initial treatment easy.
There's quite a range within OSR games, and some of them will be a harder sell to new school players than others. I would not recommend trying to pitch a game with THAC0 to a group of people that are used to 5e, and I would not recommend pitching them a super stripped-down game like Lamentations of the Flame Princess.
This thread is on a similar issue, and has lots of recommendations for games that will be a gentler introduction to the OSR for nu-school players.
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/3-x-style-osr-games/
Old school games can be so much simpler, faster game play. More emphasis is often placed on GM rulings in the moment.
If you want to streamline, try B/X. If that is too simple add a few of your favorite rules - I like advantage and disadvantage for example.
To sell your friends, show them a character sheet and how much simpler everything is. Good luck.
Why not both? I run a lot of 5e, but I'm also running the OSR SF game White Star (based off Swords & Wizardry/OD&D) and loving that too. You might try running OSR in a non-D&D genre for a one shot or short campaign?
I might suggest maybe a "bridge" product that has many character class options from the OSR realm. Something like OSE or Astonishing Swordsmen and Sorcerers of Hyperborea. That way, there are many character options available to the players and they can settle into their own without feeling distinct from each other. One problem I've encountered getting people on board with OSR games is the old "all X classes are the same," even though I try to explain to them that it's about how you play the class. They still want mechanical differences. This way, you get the simple OSR game, and the players might get to feel different from one another. It's not "base" OSR, but maybe a compromise might help them get on board.
Quote from: Lord Dynel on September 06, 2022, 06:15:29 AM
I might suggest maybe a "bridge" product that has many character class options from the OSR realm. Something like OSE or Astonishing Swordsmen and Sorcerers of Hyperborea. That way, there are many character options available to the players and they can settle into their own without feeling distinct from each other. One problem I've encountered getting people on board with OSR games is the old "all X classes are the same," even though I try to explain to them that it's about how you play the class. They still want mechanical differences. This way, you get the simple OSR game, and the players might get to feel different from one another. It's not "base" OSR, but maybe a compromise might help them get on board.
That might work, that is one of the issues, they don't want to think beyond the mechanics that the 5e book gives them. Even when talking to NPCs, they'll immediately go to using a skill.
Quote from: S'mon on September 06, 2022, 04:50:16 AM
Why not both? I run a lot of 5e, but I'm also running the OSR SF game White Star (based off Swords & Wizardry/OD&D) and loving that too. You might try running OSR in a non-D&D genre for a one shot or short campaign?
In all honesty, I am burnt on 5e with being a DM. I've gotten to where I almost hate DMing it for my group since they do nothing interesting, and see 5e more as like a video game where everything has to be mechanical and listed in the book in how they interact with the world. Its honestly why i started looking for new systems and ended up here.
Quote from: Avus on September 06, 2022, 06:54:30 AM
Quote from: Lord Dynel on September 06, 2022, 06:15:29 AM
I might suggest maybe a "bridge" product that has many character class options from the OSR realm. Something like OSE or Astonishing Swordsmen and Sorcerers of Hyperborea. That way, there are many character options available to the players and they can settle into their own without feeling distinct from each other. One problem I've encountered getting people on board with OSR games is the old "all X classes are the same," even though I try to explain to them that it's about how you play the class. They still want mechanical differences. This way, you get the simple OSR game, and the players might get to feel different from one another. It's not "base" OSR, but maybe a compromise might help them get on board.
That might work, that is one of the issues, they don't want to think beyond the mechanics that the 5e book gives them. Even when talking to NPCs, they'll immediately go to using a skill.
Quote from: S'mon on September 06, 2022, 04:50:16 AM
Why not both? I run a lot of 5e, but I'm also running the OSR SF game White Star (based off Swords & Wizardry/OD&D) and loving that too. You might try running OSR in a non-D&D genre for a one shot or short campaign?
In all honesty, I am burnt on 5e with being a DM. I've gotten to where I almost hate DMing it for my group since they do nothing interesting, and see 5e more as like a video game where everything has to be mechanical and listed in the book in how they interact with the world. Its honestly why i started looking for new systems and ended up here.
I'm in the same boat.
I have gone with DCC for Lankhmar, Dying Earth, and Umerica (which I generally enjoy more than MCC although Wampler's work on that game and 3PP supplements through Mudpuppy Games are amazing!).
When I'm not in the mood for weird dice, it's Talislanta or Castles & Crusades and Amazing Adventures. The Hero's Journey 2E is also pretty cool. And I love Hyperborea.
For sci-fi, I'm leaning heavily towards FrontierSpace, Death in Space, and HOSTILE. Stars Without Number is a favorite too, but I got into that too late to avoid a $100 print copy of a book I'd still have to convince my group to play.
Steering as far as I can from WotC...
Quote from: Lord Dynel on September 06, 2022, 06:15:29 AM
I might suggest maybe a "bridge" product that has many character class options from the OSR realm. Something like OSE or Astonishing Swordsmen and Sorcerers of Hyperborea. That way, there are many character options available to the players and they can settle into their own without feeling distinct from each other. One problem I've encountered getting people on board with OSR games is the old "all X classes are the same," even though I try to explain to them that it's about how you play the class. They still want mechanical differences. This way, you get the simple OSR game, and the players might get to feel different from one another. It's not "base" OSR, but maybe a compromise might help them get on board.
I would add that there are a lot of games out there which are not strictly OSR games, but are still quite a bit simpler than WOTC-era D&D. One of these sort of "OSR-adjacent" games like Shadow of the Demon Lord or Symbaroum might be more palatable for your players, and still give you what you want as a DM.
How much of the inertia to trying to get your group to try an OSR game (or anything not 5e) is due to lack of time to learn the rules set? Or is it lack of access to the rules set? Or is it simple "D&D Snobbery" where they don't want to play something that isn't "official?"
What I'm getting at is that switching to an OSR rules set might also make you burnt out if the gameplay theme and style is the same.
Would it be doable to rotate the DM duties, using that as the bridge to OSR since it is likely easier for a new DM to run since there is less complexity?
Or does it make sense if they are uncertain to do it as a one-shot? Heck, you could even go and switch to a different genre if you need a break, before jumping back in to D&D using an OSR set of rules.
Quote from: 3catcircus on September 06, 2022, 09:25:33 AM
How much of the inertia to trying to get your group to try an OSR game (or anything not 5e) is due to lack of time to learn the rules set? Or is it lack of access to the rules set? Or is it simple "D&D Snobbery" where they don't want to play something that isn't "official?"
What I'm getting at is that switching to an OSR rules set might also make you burnt out if the gameplay theme and style is the same.
Would it be doable to rotate the DM duties, using that as the bridge to OSR since it is likely easier for a new DM to run since there is less complexity?
Or does it make sense if they are uncertain to do it as a one-shot? Heck, you could even go and switch to a different genre if you need a break, before jumping back in to D&D using an OSR set of rules.
Oh I'm DM, I have no problems with running different systems. We're all in our really early 20s so none of us have a bunch of duties to do nessecarily. It's not snobbery either, its more of their obsession with the "customization" like one of my players calls it for 5e, I just see the metric tons of class features and races as just bloat. They're more or less locked into the perspective of never thinking outside the rules or role playing an action, they play it like a video game and must have the options chosen for them in the rules of how they can interact with the world. The entire prospect of lets say ADnD where skills (not counting the attribute check tables) are non-existant is foreign to them, they got irritated when I was explaining that they didn't have a skill to interact with every little thing.
Quote from: Avus on September 05, 2022, 08:40:26 PM
So I've been ocassionally been DMing for a few irl friends and I over the past few years in 5e, doing one-shots. I always thought until recently (a few months ago) that it was the best version of DnD. I started playing TTRPGs with Pathfinder five years ago with some friends online, and didn't like how complex everything was. 5e was like a breath of fresh air kinda in terms of how simplified it was from 3.5e/Pathfinder, yet now I see 5e as overly complicated after getting ahold of the ADnD core books and OSRIC and paging through them.
Everything seems so much simpler in the older systems and doesn't have the bloat newer systems contain. I enjoy just seeing "magic-user" instead of what are essentially just 3 of the same class with slightly altered spell trees, or not having multiple pages of sub-classes. I tried to get my irl friends to play OSRIC to see if they enjoy it and they say they like 5e more because of customization, yet I see it more as bloat than customization. Am I wrong on this, and how can I convince them to try OSRIC or even ADnD with me so I can see if I truly like it more than 5e?
I am with you there. I discovered B/X OSR stuff after getting frustrated with 5E bloat and I've not gone back. I would say that B/X related OSR products like Old School Essentials are your best bet. 5E was directly inspired by B/X and various OSR people consulted on 5e. I use the advanced version of OSE in my games for a group of kids from 9-16 and they all tell me they're really enjoying it. Advanced OSE does things like decouple Race from class, have Ascending AC, and way more classes if that's what you want. I'd highly recommend it as a gateway to the OSR from 5e. It'll be very familiar to your group. And then after that get them into things like Stars Without Number for sci fi games, Operation Whitebox for WW2 games, and the many, many suppliments produced for B/X since it's launch in the early 80's. There's so much cool stuff to look at.
Quote from: Avus on September 06, 2022, 09:51:32 AM
Oh I'm DM, I have no problems with running different systems. We're all in our really early 20s so none of us have a bunch of duties to do nessecarily. It's not snobbery either, its more of their obsession with the "customization" like one of my players calls it for 5e, I just see the metric tons of class features and races as just bloat. They're more or less locked into the perspective of never thinking outside the rules or role playing an action, they play it like a video game and must have the options chosen for them in the rules of how they can interact with the world. The entire prospect of lets say ADnD where skills (not counting the attribute check tables) are non-existant is foreign to them, they got irritated when I was explaining that they didn't have a skill to interact with every little thing.
What would happen if you starting running your 5e sessions using OSR principles? E.g., encouraging role play and creativity and resorting to skills/mechanics (perhaps with a bonus for good role play) when the chance of failure remains and failure would be meaningful.
Quote from: Avus on September 06, 2022, 09:51:32 AM
Oh I'm DM, I have no problems with running different systems. We're all in our really early 20s so none of us have a bunch of duties to do nessecarily. It's not snobbery either, its more of their obsession with the "customization" like one of my players calls it for 5e, I just see the metric tons of class features and races as just bloat. They're more or less locked into the perspective of never thinking outside the rules or role playing an action, they play it like a video game and must have the options chosen for them in the rules of how they can interact with the world. The entire prospect of lets say ADnD where skills (not counting the attribute check tables) are non-existant is foreign to them, they got irritated when I was explaining that they didn't have a skill to interact with every little thing.
It sounds like the issue is more of them having a particular mindset than just having system devotion, and that can be very hard to break. Especially since all of them share that mindset, they are reinforcing each other into thinking that way and have created a
de facto "one true way to roleplay" (or "roll-play" as it seems). Basically, they have brainwashed themselves into never wanting to try anything else.
You could tell them you need a break from GMing, whether that's true or not. Either let someone else take over, where you as a player can lead by example, or just transition to board games, card games, etc. When they get "itchy" for elf games again, pitch a new setting and take it from there.
Alternatively, you can simply require them to include dialog /narrative with each roll or suffer penalties. If they protest, explain to them that without a detailed enough explanation of what they are doing/saying, the default assumption is the lowest effort possible. Essentially, what the player puts in, the character puts out. No effort in = no effort out.
You know your group best. Choose the method you think will work.
Good Luck!
Quote from: Effete on September 06, 2022, 10:46:02 AM
Quote from: Avus on September 06, 2022, 09:51:32 AM
Oh I'm DM, I have no problems with running different systems. We're all in our really early 20s so none of us have a bunch of duties to do nessecarily. It's not snobbery either, its more of their obsession with the "customization" like one of my players calls it for 5e, I just see the metric tons of class features and races as just bloat. They're more or less locked into the perspective of never thinking outside the rules or role playing an action, they play it like a video game and must have the options chosen for them in the rules of how they can interact with the world. The entire prospect of lets say ADnD where skills (not counting the attribute check tables) are non-existant is foreign to them, they got irritated when I was explaining that they didn't have a skill to interact with every little thing.
It sounds like the issue is more of them having a particular mindset than just having system devotion, and that can be very hard to break. Especially since all of them share that mindset, they are reinforcing each other into thinking that way and have created a de facto "one true way to roleplay" (or "roll-play" as it seems). Basically, they have brainwashed themselves into never wanting to try anything else.
You could tell them you need a break from GMing, whether that's true or not. Either let someone else take over, where you as a player can lead by example, or just transition to board games, card games, etc. When they get "itchy" for elf games again, pitch a new setting and take it from there.
Alternatively, you can simply require them to include dialog /narrative with each roll or suffer penalties. If they protest, explain to them that without a detailed enough explanation of what they are doing/saying, the default assumption is the lowest effort possible. Essentially, what the player puts in, the character puts out. No effort in = no effort out.
You know your group best. Choose the method you think will work.
Good Luck!
That is some damn good advice actually, I will have to give that a shot. And yeah it seems they influence eachother constantly now that you mention it. That'll probably help them be more creative as well in the long run. I will always enjoy DMing, but I want to beat them over the head sometimes with my 5e books.
Quote from: ForgottenF on September 06, 2022, 08:01:02 AM
Quote from: Lord Dynel on September 06, 2022, 06:15:29 AM
I might suggest maybe a "bridge" product that has many character class options from the OSR realm. Something like OSE or Astonishing Swordsmen and Sorcerers of Hyperborea. That way, there are many character options available to the players and they can settle into their own without feeling distinct from each other. One problem I've encountered getting people on board with OSR games is the old "all X classes are the same," even though I try to explain to them that it's about how you play the class. They still want mechanical differences. This way, you get the simple OSR game, and the players might get to feel different from one another. It's not "base" OSR, but maybe a compromise might help them get on board.
I would add that there are a lot of games out there which are not strictly OSR games, but are still quite a bit simpler than WOTC-era D&D. One of these sort of "OSR-adjacent" games like Shadow of the Demon Lord or Symbaroum might be more palatable for your players, and still give you what you want as a DM.
I too enjoy Shadow of the Demon Lord. It is a blend of old and new without the baggage of either.
Quote from: Avus on September 06, 2022, 10:51:00 AM
That is some damn good advice actually, I will have to give that a shot. And yeah it seems they influence eachother constantly now that you mention it. That'll probably help them be more creative as well in the long run. I will always enjoy DMing, but I want to beat them over the head sometimes with my 5e books.
Thank you, although I'm not sure I would call it "good" advice. Penalizing the players for lacking imagination is a bit of a jerk move. But if your players are CAPABLE of being creative and simply not implementing it (relying on the dice to do the talking), then it may be reasonable to nudge them in a direction you'd like to see at your table.
Also remind them that gaming is intended to be fun for everyone, and you aren't having much fun. Game Mastering is a role, just like the one's the characters fill. The GM is not a mere tool, there only for the benefit of the other players.
I'm also going to parrot rystrasmi's advice. Try including more old-skool gaming principles into your game and see how receptive the players are.
Add me to the small group advocating for changing how you approach 5e instead of throwing it out. Switching systems under these circumstances is likely to cost you the group.
How/when you call for rolls and DM style can have a dramatic effect on how a game feels. Perception, Insight and Investigation rolls, for example, should be severely minimized. You almost never need them. If you sub in active game instead, your players' skill at playing the game will also improve.
As a sidebar, it always amazes me how little it is acknowledged that there is skill to this hobby, skill that grows and develops with time.
I play (and publish) 5e and OSR stuff but I dont feel interested in the current changes, so I'm going OSR all the way, at least for now.
5e had a decent run and I still use stuff from modern editions (feats, skills, etc.), but the bloat is unnecessary.
For me there is a perfect middle between 5e and OSR. Maybe try Into the Unknown (if you want lighter 5e) or one of my products (if you want OSR with more customization). There are dozens of games with a similar premise, many of them very good.
Quote from: HappyDaze on September 06, 2022, 11:13:15 AM
Quote from: ForgottenF on September 06, 2022, 08:01:02 AM
Quote from: Lord Dynel on September 06, 2022, 06:15:29 AM
I might suggest maybe a "bridge" product that has many character class options from the OSR realm. Something like OSE or Astonishing Swordsmen and Sorcerers of Hyperborea. That way, there are many character options available to the players and they can settle into their own without feeling distinct from each other. One problem I've encountered getting people on board with OSR games is the old "all X classes are the same," even though I try to explain to them that it's about how you play the class. They still want mechanical differences. This way, you get the simple OSR game, and the players might get to feel different from one another. It's not "base" OSR, but maybe a compromise might help them get on board.
I would add that there are a lot of games out there which are not strictly OSR games, but are still quite a bit simpler than WOTC-era D&D. One of these sort of "OSR-adjacent" games like Shadow of the Demon Lord or Symbaroum might be more palatable for your players, and still give you what you want as a DM.
I too enjoy Shadow of the Demon Lord. It is a blend of old and new without the baggage of either.
Yeah, SotDL definitely could fall into that category. Fairly rules light (compared to 5e) and lots of options/customization.
Quote from: FingerRod on September 06, 2022, 07:21:12 PM
Add me to the small group advocating for changing how you approach 5e instead of throwing it out. Switching systems under these circumstances is likely to cost you the group.
How/when you call for rolls and DM style can have a dramatic effect on how a game feels. Perception, Insight and Investigation rolls, for example, should be severely minimized. You almost never need them. If you sub in active game instead, your players' skill at playing the game will also improve.
As a sidebar, it always amazes me how little it is acknowledged that there is skill to this hobby, skill that grows and develops with time.
This is my perspective. Back in 2014 Mearls & co (including our Pundit) I think did a very good job creating a game driftable to a wide range of play styles. Since taking over, Crawford has been working to drift it to his own preferred style, but you don't have to go that way. If you look at eg the 5e Basic Rules, it looks an awful lot like Mentzer Classic D&D. While 5e does not do very-low-magic, it can do a lot of fantasy genres very well.
That said, I definitely recommend other systems as a cure for 5e burnout. In 2020 I ran a 10 month Mini Six game in the Primeval Thule setting, and I currently have a great White Star (OD&D-based space opera) PBP running. Previously I ran some Swords & Wizardry likewise, and played various things. All 5e all the time I think is a recipe for burnout. You can tell your group "I'm taking a break from 5e for a few months. I'm looking to run some X in the meantime. Anyone interested?" It's important you make clear (a) you ARE taking a break from 5e and (b) You would love to run game X with them, but their choice is whether they want to play X with you, or you look for someone else to play it with.
One of the best ways to learn how to run 5E in an old school style is to run an old school game in its style. You can easily run 5E that way if you know that style, but the game doesn't teach you how to do it, or encourage it. So I agree with S'mon. When there is that big a difference between the GM's fun and what the players are doing, the answer is to shake it up some. It almost doesn't matter what you pick, as long as it is different and you bill it as a short, change of pace.
Quote from: Eric Diaz on September 06, 2022, 07:26:25 PM
For me there is a perfect middle between 5e and OSR. Maybe try Into the Unknown (if you want lighter 5e) or one of my products (if you want OSR with more customization). There are dozens of games with a similar premise, many of them very good.
I was just coming to mention
Into the Unknown as a possible middle ground. I haven't played it a lot, but the sessions I did were quite fun and the compressed number of options still felt like it gave you a lot of customization for your character.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on September 07, 2022, 08:21:29 AM
One of the best ways to learn how to run 5E in an old school style is to run an old school game in its style. You can easily run 5E that way if you know that style, but the game doesn't teach you how to do it, or encourage it. So I agree with S'mon. When there is that big a difference between the GM's fun and what the players are doing, the answer is to shake it up some. It almost doesn't matter what you pick, as long as it is different and you bill it as a short, change of pace.
Excellent advice - I ran a lot of OSRIC & Labyrinth Lord (ie AD&D and B/X D&D) in the years leading up to my first 5e campaign, which I think REALLY helped in making it a huge success. It was a sandbox in the Wilderlands, Barbarian Altanis, and a long long way from the fairly crappy WoTC campaign hardbacks.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on September 07, 2022, 08:21:29 AM
One of the best ways to learn how to run 5E in an old school style is to run an old school game in its style. You can easily run 5E that way if you know that style, but the game doesn't teach you how to do it, or encourage it. So I agree with S'mon. When there is that big a difference between the GM's fun and what the players are doing, the answer is to shake it up some. It almost doesn't matter what you pick, as long as it is different and you bill it as a short, change of pace.
I agree. Something like Five Torches Deep would be good too. It's 5e but streamlined through the filter of B/X or at least OSR style design. If a group is one of those annoying ones who only plays 5E then you can show them Five Torches Deep to see how they like it. But in my experience there are some who won't play anything without an official WotC logo on it.
This is a great thread with a lot of good advice.
It seems to me, that many people indeed view 5e as a sort of video game and/or a board game. Especially if using
miniatures (I´m not against them in principle) and bought terrain maps, it easily lessens the need for imagination
or atleast that is how I´v perceived it, the focus is on the little dudes on the table and not in the vast world around
them.
Character creation in 5e also feels more like a RPG video game if nothing else. Players in my group have told
me, that in the other groups they play in, they have had troubles in getting new players to play anything other than
5e for "it is the best" supposedly due to the Critical Role and due to presence of DnD in general in social media etc.
And 5e is a sort of a super hero game set in fantasy world, which propably ticks many boxes the new players thirst for.
Even if you do not want to play 5e anymore, there is of course a ton a variables between the 5e and OSR, it depends
quite a bit on the taste whether you want a simulationist, gamist or narrative approach rules-wise:
GNS Theory:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNS_theory
As others have suggested, I think that the answer is probably to run 5E but steal ideas and style from older games. My group wants to play 5E only, but they are okay with some adjustments so I use the alternate rest system from the DMG that limits how quickly they regain their powers. Resource conservation is a key element in Old School games, so this adjustment alone is a step in the right direction. I use a "milestone" approach for XP so that I can control how fast they level up, which keeps the party in the lower part (cap out around level 8) of the game, which also adds to the Old School flavor. Stuff like that can make 5E seem very much like the 80's style of play.