Quote from: Greentongue;950613There is my point.
As the person running the game, and not being The Professor, information on how to describe a person should be available if that is as integral to the game as some claim.
While the "you recognize him as a such and such" because of his clothing, hair and badges is how I would do it, there are players that want to know HOW?
Obviously a choice is to not play with those kind of people but, that kind of detail is put forth as a selling point by many fans of the game.
As far as I know there is not even a simple list of fabrics to draw from. Flax? Wool? Linen? Silk? What are clothes made of?
=

I would like to take a stab at this, if I may? This to me is exactly why Tekumel hasn't been a commercial success. A small minority has, over the years, perpetuated the myth that in order to play the game and adventure in the setting one has to be an expert in minutaie and have a PhD in fluff. They justify this assertion by stating that Professor Barker did it this way, therefore it's the right and only way to properly game on Tekumel. I recently heard something along these lines from one of the so-called experts. I call BS on this mind frame.
The players who think this way have drunk the kool-aid and need to be told so, and shown how a Tekumel campaign can function just fine without all the pedantic details. I can say as a long time DM of Tekumel based campaigns if I were playing in such a game I would get up and leave the first time someone corrected my pronunciation, or told me I was "doing it wrong.". My most recent game has been running for a year now. Of the four players only one is really familiar with Tekumel, one sort of knows what it's about, and the other two had not heard of it before we started the campaign. This hasn't prevented us from having a viable and fun game.
To your specific points, I would completely just fake it like you would.  "His haircut is short at the front and long in the back, but has been brought together in a Top Knot marking him as a native of the Kurt Hills. He wears the badge of the Ito Clan on his tunic, and the intricate copper jewellery he wears on his hands and around his neck mark him as a high member of this clan." All BS, as far as " canon" :rolleyes: but close enough to satisfy even the pedants I would think. As to the HOW, for those players you mention, it's really quite simple: imagination. I recently read an interesting anecdote on a website, whose name completely escapes me at the moment, about Phil. A person asked him what was located in such and such a place on the map. Phil responded that he really didn't know as he hadn't been there. The questioner was incredulous and asked him how that was possible, after all he had created the world and drawn the map. Phil responded by saying he had a general idea about what was there, but not specifics because his game hadn't gone there yet. Basically, even he hadn't developed everything, or seen the need to. This has been my approach over the years as well. I use what is available from the Sourcebook, or novels, or the Blue Room, or published articles, and make up the rest. If nothing has been written about it, who's to say that I am wrong?
BTW, the Sourcebook covers the various types of fabrics if I'm not mistaken, such as Hma wool and Gudru(?) Silk.

Shemek.

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;950665I would like to take a stab at this, if I may? This to me is exactly why Tekumel hasn't been a commercial success. A small minority has, over the years, perpetuated the myth that in order to play the game and adventure in the setting one has to be an expert in minutaie and have a PhD in fluff. They justify this assertion by stating that Professor Barker did it this way, therefore it's the right and only way to properly game on Tekumel. I recently heard something along these lines from one of the so-called experts. I call BS on this mind frame.
The players who think this way have drunk the kool-aid and need to be told so, and shown how a Tekumel campaign can function just fine without all the pedantic details. I can say as a long time DM of Tekumel based campaigns if I were playing in such a game I would get up and leave the first time someone corrected my pronunciation, or told me I was "doing it wrong.". My most recent game has been running for a year now. Of the four players only one is really familiar with Tekumel, one sort of knows what it's about, and the other two had not heard of it before we started the campaign. This hasn't prevented us from having a viable and fun game.
To your specific points, I would completely just fake it like you would.  "His haircut is short at the front and long in the back, but has been brought together in a Top Knot marking him as a native of the Kurt Hills. He wears the badge of the Ito Clan on his tunic, and the intricate copper jewellery he wears on his hands and around his neck mark him as a high member of this clan." All BS, as far as " canon" :rolleyes: but close enough to satisfy even the pedants I would think. As to the HOW, for those players you mention, it's really quite simple: imagination. I recently read an interesting anecdote on a website, whose name completely escapes me at the moment, about Phil. A person asked him what was located in such and such a place on the map. Phil responded that he really didn't know as he hadn't been there. The questioner was incredulous and asked him how that was possible, after all he had created the world and drawn the map. Phil responded by saying he had a general idea about what was there, but not specifics because his game hadn't gone there yet. Basically, even he hadn't developed everything, or seen the need to. This has been my approach over the years as well. I use what is available from the Sourcebook, or novels, or the Blue Room, or published articles, and make up the rest. If nothing has been written about it, who's to say that I am wrong?
BTW, the Sourcebook covers the various types of fabrics if I'm not mistaken, such as Hma wool and Gudru(?) Silk.

Shemek.

This. I remember the incident quite well; the interviewer was truly shocked to find out that Phil was not a master of trivia for his own world.

I agree - it was always about imagination, which was why Phil included so many things that we added to his campaign. It was a 'shared world', not 'holy writ'.

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;950665I would like to take a stab at this, if I may? This to me is exactly why Tekumel hasn't been a commercial success. A small minority has, over the years, perpetuated the myth that in order to play the game and adventure in the setting one has to be an expert in minutaie and have a PhD in fluff. They justify this assertion by stating that Professor Barker did it this way, therefore it's the right and only way to properly game on Tekumel. I recently heard something along these lines from one of the so-called experts. I call BS on this mind frame.
The players who think this way have drunk the kool-aid and need to be told so, and shown how a Tekumel campaign can function just fine without all the pedantic details. I can say as a long time DM of Tekumel based campaigns if I were playing in such a game I would get up and leave the first time someone corrected my pronunciation, or told me I was "doing it wrong.". My most recent game has been running for a year now. Of the four players only one is really familiar with Tekumel, one sort of knows what it's about, and the other two had not heard of it before we started the campaign. This hasn't prevented us from having a viable and fun game.
To your specific points, I would completely just fake it like you would.  "His haircut is short at the front and long in the back, but has been brought together in a Top Knot marking him as a native of the Kurt Hills. He wears the badge of the Ito Clan on his tunic, and the intricate copper jewellery he wears on his hands and around his neck mark him as a high member of this clan." All BS, as far as " canon" :rolleyes: but close enough to satisfy even the pedants I would think. As to the HOW, for those players you mention, it's really quite simple: imagination. I recently read an interesting anecdote on a website, whose name completely escapes me at the moment, about Phil. A person asked him what was located in such and such a place on the map. Phil responded that he really didn't know as he hadn't been there. The questioner was incredulous and asked him how that was possible, after all he had created the world and drawn the map. Phil responded by saying he had a general idea about what was there, but not specifics because his game hadn't gone there yet. Basically, even he hadn't developed everything, or seen the need to. This has been my approach over the years as well. I use what is available from the Sourcebook, or novels, or the Blue Room, or published articles, and make up the rest. If nothing has been written about it, who's to say that I am wrong?
BTW, the Sourcebook covers the various types of fabrics if I'm not mistaken, such as Hma wool and Gudru(?) Silk.

Shemek.

Very true. It always boils down to "make Tekumel yours". Read at the resources if you want. Ask questions(Chirine baKal is a great resource). Getting it right is not important. Having fun is. If your players are not happy with the game you give them, then let them seek happiness elsewhere. Just do it...!!! Don't get bogged down in "canon"...!!! Be yourself, not the Professor. Use what you will. After all it is just a game...!!!

Having fun exploring Tekumel,

H;0)

PS Uncle beat me to it...getting slow!!!

Quote from: Greentongue;950613There is my point.
As the person running the game, and not being The Professor, information on how to describe a person should be available if that is as integral to the game as some claim.
While the "you recognize him as a such and such" because of his clothing, hair and badges is how I would do it, there are players that want to know HOW?
Obviously a choice is to not play with those kind of people but, that kind of detail is put forth as a selling point by many fans of the game.
As far as I know there is not even a simple list of fabrics to draw from. Flax? Wool? Linen? Silk? What are clothes made of?
=

Okay, I simply wouldn't play with such a person; the GAME would never get anywhere.  Further, I would strongly suspect that the person in question didn't actually want to play, but was trying to derail the game.

Whenever I have encountered a person with such a fixation on pedantry, their other behaviors have inevitably shown that "playing the game" was not their actual agenda.

"Ah HA!  Three months ago, you said we could tell a Archymadrite of the 12th Circle of the Voldrani Supplicants by the fact that his hemi-semi-demi informal early late midafternoon hip-cloak folded to the left, but now you just said it's folded to the right?  Which is it?  What kind of world is this?  You're the worst game master ever!  Can't you even be consistent about anything?"

Sadly, not an exaggeration. And the only answer to such a person is "Bite my ass, fuckface."

In case you're wondering, yes, I am EXTREMELY fussy about the people I play with, and suspicious as hell of the motives of a sizeable group of gamers.

It's like watching a movie with somebody who pays no attention to the plot or characters but blathers incessantly about how the special effects are done and points out every ragged edge on every matte shot.  "Shut the fuck UP!" is the only possible rational response.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;950687Okay, I simply wouldn't play with such a person; the GAME would never get anywhere.  Further, I would strongly suspect that the person in question didn't actually want to play, but was trying to derail the game.

Whenever I have encountered a person with such a fixation on pedantry, their other behaviors have inevitably shown that "playing the game" was not their actual agenda.

"Ah HA!  Three months ago, you said we could tell a Archymadrite of the 12th Circle of the Voldrani Supplicants by the fact that his hemi-semi-demi informal early late midafternoon hip-cloak folded to the left, but now you just said it's folded to the right?  Which is it?  What kind of world is this?  You're the worst game master ever!  Can't you even be consistent about anything?"

Sadly, not an exaggeration. And the only answer to such a person is "Bite my ass, fuckface."

Yep. I've had more then a few people like this, over the years, who seem to be bound and determined to prove their manhood by catching Phil and I out on some obscure detail. Phil stopped having guests, because of it. Most extreme case I've had was when I asked for a one page (one sheet, both sides) 'Introduction to Tekumel'; one of my gamers offered to do it, and came back with a 63 page cut-and-paste of the Sourcebook. He insisted that new players had to learn all this material before they could play. He's very detail-obsessive to this day, and runs the most boring games I've ever sat in on - I've sen his players fall asleep during game sessions.

I don;t mind people asking "What does this look like?" That's a normal question, and to be expected in game play. What I shy away from are the people who obsess over detail to the point that it bogs down or stops game play.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;950691In case you're wondering, yes, I am EXTREMELY fussy about the people I play with, and suspicious as hell of the motives of a sizeable group of gamers.

It's like watching a movie with somebody who pays no attention to the plot or characters but blathers incessantly about how the special effects are done and points out every ragged edge on every matte shot.  "Shut the fuck UP!" is the only possible rational response.

Same here. Double-faced deadbolt locks on all the doors are a big help with this, we've found.

The first two posts on our trip to CincyCon VIII are now up on my blog, with photos...

Quote from: chirine ba kal;950728Yep. I've had more then a few people like this, over the years, who seem to be bound and determined to prove their manhood by catching Phil and I out on some obscure detail. Phil stopped having guests, because of it. Most extreme case I've had was when I asked for a one page (one sheet, both sides) 'Introduction to Tekumel'; one of my gamers offered to do it, and came back with a 63 page cut-and-paste of the Sourcebook. He insisted that new players had to learn all this material before they could play. He's very detail-obsessive to this day, and runs the most boring games I've ever sat in on - I've sen his players fall asleep during game sessions.

I don;t mind people asking "What does this look like?" That's a normal question, and to be expected in game play. What I shy away from are the people who obsess over detail to the point that it bogs down or stops game play.

Why didn't you hand it back to him and told him "your assignment isn't even half done - that's 31.5 times the amount of space you were allowed"?
Some day, I'd be tempted to explain Tekumel in two pages, myself. Those would be extremely densely-packed pages, but it still would be two pages. I'm just wondering how the Foundation would react if I was to put it on my blog;)!

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;950691In case you're wondering, yes, I am EXTREMELY fussy about the people I play with, and suspicious as hell of the motives of a sizeable group of gamers.

It's like watching a movie with somebody who pays no attention to the plot or characters but blathers incessantly about how the special effects are done and points out every ragged edge on every matte shot.  "Shut the fuck UP!" is the only possible rational response.

I'm kinda that guy, though not when it comes to special effects...
Though, in my defence, I've learned not to share those observations. But don't ask me about the opinion after the movie, unless I say it was good:p!
Then again, lately I simply don't go to movies which contain the kind of details that would irk me.

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;950665I would like to take a stab at this, if I may? This to me is exactly why Tekumel hasn't been a commercial success. A small minority has, over the years, perpetuated the myth that in order to play the game and adventure in the setting one has to be an expert in minutaie and have a PhD in fluff. They justify this assertion by stating that Professor Barker did it this way, therefore it's the right and only way to properly game on Tekumel.

I recently read an interesting anecdote on a website, whose name completely escapes me at the moment, about Phil. A person asked him what was located in such and such a place on the map. Phil responded that he really didn't know as he hadn't been there. The questioner was incredulous and asked him how that was possible, after all he had created the world and drawn the map. Phil responded by saying he had a general idea about what was there, but not specifics because his game hadn't gone there yet. Basically, even he hadn't developed everything, or seen the need to. This has been my approach over the years as well. I use what is available from the Sourcebook, or novels, or the Blue Room, or published articles, and make up the rest. If nothing has been written about it, who's to say that I am wrong?
BTW, the Sourcebook covers the various types of fabrics if I'm not mistaken, such as Hma wool and Gudru(?) Silk.

Shemek.

They tend to forget that Phil did have a PhD, and not because of Tekumel - it's the other way around;).

Also, I think it was in this thread. It sure made me laugh, because I'm calling "know the general outline, make up details when you get to them" my method of Lazy GMing for...close to a decade, now?
And I've caught some flak over it during the years, too. Including being accused of "making up the details to suit the story instead of presenting a fixed challenge" (Illusionism, in other words).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;950848The first two posts on our trip to CincyCon VIII are now up on my blog, with photos...

Those photos seem cool!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;950848The first two posts on our trip to CincyCon VIII are now up on my blog, with photos...

I will be reading it in full detail later.  Truthfully, my first reaction is "Good for you two!" followed shortly thereafter upon reading a bit more of the text with "Oh, my aching ass."  Travel just isn't as easy as it used to be, is it.

Quote from: AsenRG;950865Why didn't you hand it back to him and told him "your assignment isn't even half done - that's 31.5 times the amount of space you were allowed"?
Some day, I'd be tempted to explain Tekumel in two pages, myself. Those would be extremely densely-packed pages, but it still would be two pages. I'm just wondering how the Foundation would react if I was to put it on my blog;)!

I'm kinda that guy, though not when it comes to special effects...
Though, in my defence, I've learned not to share those observations. But don't ask me about the opinion after the movie, unless I say it was good:p!
Then again, lately I simply don't go to movies which contain the kind of details that would irk me.

They tend to forget that Phil did have a PhD, and not because of Tekumel - it's the other way around;).

Also, I think it was in this thread. It sure made me laugh, because I'm calling "know the general outline, make up details when you get to them" my method of Lazy GMing for...close to a decade, now?
And I've caught some flak over it during the years, too. Including being accused of "making up the details to suit the story instead of presenting a fixed challenge" (Illusionism, in other words).

Those photos seem cool!

Because this is the guy who takes any critical response as being "gay persecution", with him as the oppressed target of same.

They'd get a rash, as it's more 'unauthorized, unofficial' work by the fans; they seem to really dislike that kind of thing.

Glad you like the photos; had a great time. Another post in the works, at the moment.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;950869Because this is the guy who takes any critical response as being "gay persecution", with him as the oppressed target of same.

They'd get a rash, as it's more 'unauthorized, unofficial' work by the fans; they seem to really dislike that kind of thing.

Glad you like the photos; had a great time. Another post in the works, at the moment.

Yeah, someone should explain to him that you can be criticised for not completing the task you were given. Who you like to sleep with is subjective, but whether you turn up 2 pages or 63 is objective:).

Then I think I should start work on it as soon as time permits:D!

Glad you had so much fun, Uncle! Though your van is the unsung hero of the story.
We'll be waiting for the updates, of course;).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;950866I will be reading it in full detail later.  Truthfully, my first reaction is "Good for you two!" followed shortly thereafter upon reading a bit more of the text with "Oh, my aching ass."  Travel just isn't as easy as it used to be, is it.

Yeah. The Missus has a couple of things like spinabifida and fibromyalgia that make sitting in the passenger seat really uncomfortable; I fully expected to cancel the whole trip, but she had That Look on her face and so we stopped every two hours to let her get out and stretch. Took 24 hours to do what's a nominal 11 hour drive, but then we're just not that young, any more. The stop also allowed us to raid the flight bags, which had to go in the back of the van, for snacks and fluids. We made it, there and back, and she got down to see the Thoroughbred Library. I got to talk miniatures all weekend, hobnobbed with a bunch of old TSR people, and had a very good time. Took the same time to get back, and it all worked out well; nothing broke or fell off.

This convention, coming as it did after a very good time at Con of the North, really jump-started my interest in gaming again. It was, as they say, a 'life-changing experience' after the last couple / three years of crap I've been dealing with.

Quote from: AsenRG;950874Yeah, someone should explain to him that you can be criticised for not completing the task you were given. Who you like to sleep with is subjective, but whether you turn up 2 pages or 63 is objective:).

Then I think I should start work on it as soon as time permits:D!

Glad you had so much fun, Uncle! Though your van is the unsung hero of the story.
We'll be waiting for the updates, of course;).

Can't; he simply does not understand the idea of brevity being wanted.

Hah! Would love to see it, too.

Another post done; more on the way. Yes, the poor old van really came through despite being loaded up. The books did serve as very welcome ballast, especially on the trip back home when we had torrential rains. I had to keep the speed up, as people were being run down and blown off the road in the wind and the rain, but we were very stable and had no problems.  I love the thing; it now has over 328,000 miles on the clock... :eek:

Quote from: chirine ba kal;950879Can't; he simply does not understand the idea of brevity being wanted.

Hah! Would love to see it, too.

Another post done; more on the way. Yes, the poor old van really came through despite being loaded up. The books did serve as very welcome ballast, especially on the trip back home when we had torrential rains. I had to keep the speed up, as people were being run down and blown off the road in the wind and the rain, but we were very stable and had no problems.  I love the thing; it now has over 328,000 miles on the clock... :eek:

Amusingly, Uncle, that's almost exactly 13 times the length of the Equator:D! That car's a miracle of endurance.

Glad you travelled safely, despite the winds and rains, that's what counts in the end;)!