Quote from: Hrugga;947689So cool. I am seriously thinking of going to next year's Con of the North and/or a visit to the Workbench!!! I have no extra obligations besides normal work schedule...I have played EPT at a local con, but last year sadly no Tekumel. So no con.


H:0)

It's a very good, very solid track of programming, and I highly suggest it - in the fall, I can equally suggest U-Con in Ann Arbor.

Visits to the Workbench are always in order; I very rarely have a weekend booking, these days. It was suggested, by several of the out-of-towners at the convention, that I have Brett build a group visit to the house into the programming schedule - Sunday mornings are particularly quiet at the convention, and 'Breakfast at Chirine's' sounds like a good way to start the day. We'd have to get a large passenger van, to carry everyone to and fro, but that's already in hand...

In the dark corners of the (under)world, how much of the original mold, fungus and other such life thrives?

Was it something often encountered and if so, was it all hazardous?
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Quote from: Greentongue;947905In the dark corners of the (under)world, how much of the original mold, fungus and other such life thrives?

Was it something often encountered and if so, was it all hazardous?
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The deeper, older, and less frequented you get, the more of this kind of thing you'll encounter. The 'vermin' are also usually smaller and a little less hostile, as the ecosystem down in the deepest parts of underworlds seems to be less active then higher up, where food is more plentiful. (Hekellu's underworld was much like this on all levels, due to the high water table and generally soggy nature of the place.) We'd run into this kind of thing all the time; unless an area is being actively maintained by somebody, this stuff creeps right back in and takes over. Generally, it was more annoying then deadly, but there are pockets of really lethal stuff mixed in with the more ordinary kinds of things. One issue is when the stuff gets on your clothes and gear, and starts to grow and take it over. A good cleaning occasionally helps, once you're back to the surface, but if you let it go you often loose all your gear that's organic - including anything made of chlen hide, like your armor.

So, we got careful, and generally stayed out of any patches of this kind of thing we found. May have missed a few treasures that way, but stayed alive and kept our gear intact.

Was playing in the slums of Jakalla boring? Is that why nobody wants to start a game as a "boat person"?
Is being a refugee a problem because of the "current" Real World politics?

Yeah, life sucks as a refugee but it is also full of "excitement" which people seem to be looking for in games.
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Yes, playing in the slums of Jakalla was boring as hell.  I never had a taste for playing "den of thieves" type games, and at best that's what it was.  Mugging other beggars for coppers, or fighting to avoid being mugged yourself, is not my idea of fun.

You could not leave the Foreigner's Quarters without escort until you were third level, and Phil enforced that vigorously.  It's why I joined the army as soon as I hit third level.

It also pissed me off royally when Phil started Mirusiya's "New Men" out as citizens and nobles; my character was still Nakome, and they treated me, both in and out of character, like shit.  And meanwhile as a non-citizen, clanless barbarian, I had to eat all the shit I was dished.

Well, it's too bad that the FQ was presented in a less-than-interesting fashion in the Professor's campaign. But it can certainly work with the right people involved. My own players and I are still having fun there, and Thieves World's Sanctuary, as an example, has been very popular over the years.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;947949The deeper, older, and less frequented you get, the more of this kind of thing you'll encounter. The 'vermin' are also usually smaller and a little less hostile, as the ecosystem down in the deepest parts of underworlds seems to be less active then higher up, where food is more plentiful. (Hekellu's underworld was much like this on all levels, due to the high water table and generally soggy nature of the place.) We'd run into this kind of thing all the time; unless an area is being actively maintained by somebody, this stuff creeps right back in and takes over. Generally, it was more annoying then deadly, but there are pockets of really lethal stuff mixed in with the more ordinary kinds of things. One issue is when the stuff gets on your clothes and gear, and starts to grow and take it over. A good cleaning occasionally helps, once you're back to the surface, but if you let it go you often loose all your gear that's organic - including anything made of chlen hide, like your armor.

So, we got careful, and generally stayed out of any patches of this kind of thing we found. May have missed a few treasures that way, but stayed alive and kept our gear intact.

If Phil wanted to make sure PCs'd pay at least as much attention to cleanliness as real-world Indians of high caste, there are worse ways to achieve that than a hazard that destroys their equipment:D!

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;948300Yes, playing in the slums of Jakalla was boring as hell.  I never had a taste for playing "den of thieves" type games, and at best that's what it was.  Mugging other beggars for coppers, or fighting to avoid being mugged yourself, is not my idea of fun.

You could not leave the Foreigner's Quarters without escort until you were third level, and Phil enforced that vigorously.  It's why I joined the army as soon as I hit third level.

Couldn't you join the army on the return from a "job"?

QuoteIt also pissed me off royally when Phil started Mirusiya's "New Men" out as citizens and nobles; my character was still Nakome, and they treated me, both in and out of character, like shit.  And meanwhile as a non-citizen, clanless barbarian, I had to eat all the shit I was dished.

I'm sure you didn't take the OOC treatment without objections?

Quote from: Baron;948303Well, it's too bad that the FQ was presented in a less-than-interesting fashion in the Professor's campaign. But it can certainly work with the right people involved. My own players and I are still having fun there, and Thieves World's Sanctuary, as an example, has been very popular over the years.

Yeah, but doesn't mean Sanctuary would be equally popular among everyone:D!

I mean, what's more popular than dungeon crawling?
And yet, the way Gronan sees "mugging other beggars for coppers" is more or less how I view crawling in most dungeons I'd encountered: I can do it just fine, it's boring. Which is why I* prefer not playing a dungeoncrawling game unless I trust the Referee to make it fun. Give me a world to explore, though, and things change quite** a bit.

*Assuming you care about my preferences, but I'm using them as an example. Sorry if I'm rambling in the thread...I'm not even drunk, yet. Maybe I'll start in a while, and hopefully that should help:D!
Yeah, this night sucks, though the evening was just fine.

**Like "manipulating and commanding people outranking me by up to 10 levels", in settings similar*** to Tekumel. Yes, there are IC means to determine their level in WHoOG, and no, I don't care about their personal power: there's stuff I can do for them, so there better be stuff they can do for me, too:p!

***Fantasy Ancient China should count;).

So, would playing a Thieves World's Sanctuary flavor of the Foreigner's Quarter break "canon"?

From your experience, was there enough of an influx of refugee/immigrants to give an unusual amount of fluidity to the game that the normal strict social structure could be flexed a bit?
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I've read Thieves' World.  Though you could play the foreigner's quarters like that... it's your game... that was not how Phil pictured or described it.  The Foreigner's Quarter was a shit hole that any sentient creature could not wait to get out of.  "Ruling" the foreigner's quarters would be like being "king of the shit eaters."  You're still a shit eater.

Really, foreigners were "untouchables."  The Empire didn't care what they did there because they were non-persons.  And there was no money there.

Don't think of Sanctuary, think of the God damned "black hole of Calcutta" and you're closer to the mark.  There was nothing "exotic" or "adventurous" or "edgy" about the foreigner's quarter; it was a festering dung heap.

May I offer an opinion?

I came in right when Gronan finally got something nice, and we didn't play in the FQ at all after that; all of us had gone up enough in 'level' - and I started at third, BTW - so that we didn't go there any more; place- and job-seekers came to us.

Gronan's 'Calcutta' comment is entirely accurate, in Phil's case; Phil used his time in the similar very slums of South Asia for the basis of his version of the FQ. And, in my opinion, while it's 'historically accurate' and 'canon' to run it that way - and I kinda puke whenever I hear the word 'canon' - it's also not very 'playable' or 'gameable' unless you happen to be Phil with his rich lifetime of experiences with the seamier sides of life in the Third World. Which may be why he didn't use it again as a setting, after the first couple of years of gaming; I dunno.

Would I use "Thieves' World"? Maybe, if that's what the players wanted and/or expected. Normally, I'd do what Phil did after he'd gotten a few years of DMing under his belt and start people in the society with bit of connection and status. Yes, still low level, but socially acceptable. Do what you need to do for your game - in the end, that's what really matters.

And as for what those folks were like, read Fine's book. The first few years of Phil's campaign was very different from the next decade, once we spilt off into our own group. Had a much nicer time, too; Gronan is being very diplomatic...

Quote from: chirine ba kal;948416Gronan's 'Calcutta' comment is entirely accurate, in Phil's case; Phil used his time in the similar very slums of South Asia for the basis of his version of the FQ. And, in my opinion, while it's 'historically accurate' and 'canon' to run it that way - and I kinda puke whenever I hear the word 'canon' - it's also not very 'playable' or 'gameable' unless you happen to be Phil with his rich lifetime of experiences with the seamier sides of life in the Third World. Which may be why he didn't use it again as a setting, after the first couple of years of gaming; I dunno.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;948416Do what you need to do for your game - in the end, that's what really matters.

I guess this is the thing that gets to me. It is first and foremost a Game Setting and yet people treat it as an Actual Real Place.
So much angst and vitriol over the "Real Tekumel" and against not sticking to the "facts" of the setting.

It is good to hear that someone who played in the original games doesn't feel that, not slavishly following what has been documented, is some kind of horrific slander.

I feel there is so much potential to go off on a unique "branch of the tree" and have fun.
It is a pity that there is such trepidation of scorn, if that is done.
That somehow, it is a desecration.
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Well, it IS Phil's game, so in some sense there is a base of "authorial intent."  Phil's whole vision of his game was that the players were part of this huge, bureaucratic empire, presenting a very different foundation from the typical D&D wandering adventurer.

There is a long sliding scale with "D&D with different monsters" on one end, and "exact duplicate of Phil's Tekumel" on the other.  Position the slider where you will.

Well, for 99% of the gaming world, what "gaming in Tekumel" means comes from the published works. EPT postulates new characters gaming as FQ residents for three levels. Ergo, this scenario must be 'playable' for the majority of folks. How the author gamed at his table, what anyone experienced at that table, and how everyone who plays actually chooses to play, is all entirely variable. I won't be playing an unplayable starving disease-ridden Untouchable lying in a cesspool of feces and urine for even one session, let alone three levels. Also I find it hard to believe that Low, Medium and High social status foreigners will be staying in resthouses in such a FQ. Sounds more like an international incident waiting to happen, to me. See Barry Blatt's 'These Mean Streets' if it's difficult to imagine playing in a playable poor, lower class slum of foreigners. But in any case, please note that I'm repeating the same phrase everyone else is, that we play games however we choose to. Again Gronan, sorry that you didn't enjoy your experience.

Barry Blatt's 'These Mean Streets' is a wonderful example of why the setting is not popular.  IMHO
"This correctness includes talking to lower caste people as if they were shit, and grovelling outrageously to anyone upper caste." would grate on just about anyone that you would actually want to play a game with.

Even my toned down version of just being rude and inconsiderate rankles players.

Thieves' World would be far more acceptable to players.
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You're entitled to your opinion, but your anecdotal experience is of no more validity than anyone else's.