When we first started Phil did NOT show us the map at ALL.  He learned how to run dungeon adventures from me, after all.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;944219Yes! There was a recent story on the BBC website about this, if I recall correctly.

There was a somewhat similar set-up at the fortress of Masada, where now-destroyed aqueducts fed rainwater from  the surrounding wadis to a series of huge cisterns below the fortress proper. I think - and you'd have to check for the exact numbers - the excavators figured that the place had enough water in the cisterns for years' worth of siege. Rain that fell on the plateau proper was used to irrigate the crops being grown there, as well as for the bathhouse in the north palace.

"Our ancestors," as Phil used to say, "were a lot smarter then we usually give them credit for."

I often think that this was more common than we think. Every European castle had it's own well deep in the inner stronghold but all those fortified places in the Middle East and Africa (e.g. Great Zimbabwe) must have had a way of obtaining water when under attack and while a well driven down to an underground aquifer might be possible some form of catchment area (roofs) channeling water into underground cisterns must have been a more common feature that our western European focus has made us less aware of.

I'm not sure if it's a "western European focus" or a "late 20th to early 21st century urban focus." Though we didn't have a rain barrel I certainly knew what one was by the time I was five or six, and the house I grew up in had a rainwater cistern though it wasn't used.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;944228I'd agree with this. I am trying to keep the right balance with this in my book, for exactly the reason you give! The most similar thing I can think of in the historical genre would be Robert Carey's stirring account of being one of the Border Wardens - I forget which March, sorry - and which is extensively covered in G. F. Frasier's "The Steel Bonnets". Which, I might mention, was kind of our basic guide to life on the frontiers of the Seal Imperium. No reivers on horses, but lots of them on foot...

I thought that the added backstory stuff about Captain Carter's dead family was a bit much, and I thought that it slowed down the action with too much 'relevant angst'. But, I assumed that Marketing told them that they needed this kind of thing to enhance the appeal to the market demographic.

Costuming-wise, I thought that the film was just fine, given that it was being done in the US for a US market by a US company; that automatically imposes some decisions on the director and costumer. So, I'd say that I liked the look of the film; I can always play the games with my Bronze Age figures, which look the part as given in the book.

Now, I do have to say that I have gotten some grief for my miniatures - Tekumel, Ancient Egyptian, and Barsoom - from people. These days, one is better safe then sorry, and with the high costs of lawyers, after taking legal advice I have instituted a policy of no gamers under 18, and no gamers under 16 (the local age of consent) unless accompanied by their parent or guardian.

What can I say; I live in a very odd country.

I tend to restrict the players to no younger than 18, but that's not for legal reasons. It just makes it easier for the players to relate to each other:).
And yeah, you do live in a somewhat odd place, if you'll forgive me for saying so:D!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;944235Usually, I took general notes, and then did what little mapping that we did as a party - mostly because I always had a graph paper pad in my gaming bag, and lots of pencils as well. I'd have to duplicate the map that resulted so Phil could have a copy, and I also had to make copies of anything he generated during a game.

Phil hated to show us anything; we got to see the full Jakalla underworld map a few times, but he's whisk the thing way from you if you tried to make notes. Everything had to be done by direct exploration; if you sent some people down there, all you'd get back were verbal descriptions, which was nothing we'd care to risk our lives on. Phil would say "the corridor is about so-and-so long, branches to the left and right at the end" and that's what you'd get unless you asked pointed questions. We never knew the general layout of anything, unless we'd been there, and we know what was in a room because we had been in them and took notes. So, my maps and notes got to be pretty important; Phil was also - like all the local GMs of that day - intellectually honest, so any 'changes' between out maps and his were either our errors or the result of third-party actions. Phil, like Dave Arneson, used to get a lot of laughs over the major mistakes people would make mapping and get a little cranky when I was there to do it - my maps always tended to be very reliable and detailed.

I do think, though, that this was because I always approached mapping like I was going to make a model of the place being explored; we did that a few times, with my collection of wooden blocks, and some very fun games resulted. I still game this way, using the generic tiles that I made; I lay out the tiles, and when done I make the map of the place and game off the map until the players actually go into the room or corridor.

This kinds of hearkens back to the debate about using miniatures in RPGs; we did, quite often, but we never let 'the perfect set-up' get in the way of fast and furious game play. We'd use dice to mark doors, imagine the walls in our heads, and place the figures so that we had a 'tactical display; of where everybody was in the situation. No rulers, no templates, no micro-measuring, just playing the game. Did it 'ruin immersion'? No, not for us, as a lot of what we did was all 'theater of the mind'. The figures were just fun to have - "That's me!"

Does this help?

Thank you, this helps a lot!
BTW, did theatre of the mind come naturally to your wargamer players;)?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;944291When we first started Phil did NOT show us the map at ALL.  He learned how to run dungeon adventures from me, after all.

Did he start doing so later, Glorious General?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;944489I'm not sure if it's a "western European focus" or a "late 20th to early 21st century urban focus." Though we didn't have a rain barrel I certainly knew what one was by the time I was five or six, and the house I grew up in had a rainwater cistern though it wasn't used.

It's the time focus. I knew the same thing at an early age, despite being born in the 80ies in a major city centre.
Admittedly, I knew it from reading, but still:D!

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;944277Perfect, and thanks for the insight. I usually don't show the map either, but I was curious if this was typical or atypical, as I can't think of one DM who did show the players the map, back in the day, but apparently it's not too unusual to do so today. Just curious..

Shemek

Normally, we did not, and I normally still do not show 'the map' to players, even when doing the game in miniature - I cover the rooms with black cloth or paper to hide them from the players until they get explored.

However, once I got the digital version of the Jakalla underworld map, I started showing players that first level map just to save time. In my experience, mapping these days seems to dramatically slow down the game play, as the GM and the players seem to be really worried about 'getting it right'. I watched a GM at Gary Con struggling to help his players do their map, and finally just drew it out for them on their pad of paper. I think this 'getting it right' issue may stem from D&D 4E, where you seem to need almost boardgame accuracy to play the game. I don't play that way, and we didn't back in the day, either.

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;944281Thanks again and no worries Chirine. Hopefully you are all finished and can relax.
This does sound fun and I'll mention it to the group. I think we all had some type of rough thug in mind, and not someone polished and urbane. Excellent!

If I may ask who was your alternate PC? Did you play another priest or follower of Vimuhla?


Shemek

You're welcome! I still have to get ready for a stint at the local game convention, where I promised Bill Hoyt that I'd let him use one of my trade show booth Skyline displays for his 'History of Twin Cities Gaming' display in the hotel lobby. He's had some stuff fall through, and I have to take up the slack for the show.

I had a female version of Chirine for  while, due to yet another of the Undying Wizards getting meddlesome, and a Priest of the One of Light from Saa Alliqui for when we went off on an adventure with Vrisa to her homeland.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;944291When we first started Phil did NOT show us the map at ALL.  He learned how to run dungeon adventures from me, after all.

Yep; that was the custom, back in the day. We knew the map existed, from seeing it lying on the shelf, but he'd make sure to hide it when we looked at it...

Quote from: Hermes Serpent;944415I often think that this was more common than we think. Every European castle had it's own well deep in the inner stronghold but all those fortified places in the Middle East and Africa (e.g. Great Zimbabwe) must have had a way of obtaining water when under attack and while a well driven down to an underground aquifer might be possible some form of catchment area (roofs) channeling water into underground cisterns must have been a more common feature that our western European focus has made us less aware of.

Agreed, I think; people don't seem to know much about other cultures, and what their own ancestors could do. Whereas Phil, and some of us in the group, were very avid readers of history and would spend hours looking at the plumbing...

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;944489I'm not sure if it's a "western European focus" or a "late 20th to early 21st century urban focus." Though we didn't have a rain barrel I certainly knew what one was by the time I was five or six, and the house I grew up in had a rainwater cistern though it wasn't used.

True. My stepfather was born in a sod house, and I've had to explain what that was to more then a few people - including some of his relatives...

From AsenRG:
I tend to restrict the players to no younger than 18, but that's not for legal reasons. It just makes it easier for the players to relate to each other:).
And yeah, you do live in a somewhat odd place, if you'll forgive me for saying so:D!

Understood. I agree with your point of view, based on experience.

Thank you, this helps a lot!
BTW, did theatre of the mind come naturally to your wargamer players;)?

Oh, yes, very much so! Because of the time and budget limitations, we tended to imagine quite a lot in our games, of all kinds. Keep in mind that we operated on a one-week cycle between games, so the build time was short and sweet - we had to think outside the lines, and imagine that the drawing on the table was the Mos Eisley cantina...

Did he start doing so later, Glorious General?

Not really, for me.

It's the time focus. I knew the same thing at an early age, despite being born in the 80ies in a major city centre.
Admittedly, I knew it from reading, but still:D!

Agreed; but you did read!!!

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;944291When we first started Phil did NOT show us the map at ALL.  He learned how to run dungeon adventures from me, after all.

Cool.
Did Phil observe you DM, or did he play in your campaign? If so, do you remember what character type he played?

Shemek

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;944489I'm not sure if it's a "western European focus" or a "late 20th to early 21st century urban focus." Though we didn't have a rain barrel I certainly knew what one was by the time I was five or six, and the house I grew up in had a rainwater cistern though it wasn't used.

We also had a rain barrel when I was a kid, before it became the "Green" thing to do, as my dad's hobby was planting a massive vegetable garden every spring. He had quite an elaborate set up, as I recall, and would putter around out there for hours during the summer.

Shemek

Quote from: chirine ba kal;944512From AsenRG:

Thank you, this helps a lot!
BTW, did theatre of the mind come naturally to your wargamer players;)?

Oh, yes, very much so! Because of the time and budget limitations, we tended to imagine quite a lot in our games, of all kinds. Keep in mind that we operated on a one-week cycle between games, so the build time was short and sweet - we had to think outside the lines, and imagine that the drawing on the table was the Mos Eisley cantina...

That's interesting, thank you for sharing it:).

QuoteIt's the time focus. I knew the same thing at an early age, despite being born in the 80ies in a major city centre.
Admittedly, I knew it from reading, but still:D!

Agreed; but you did read!!!

I tried to imagine what my life would have been without reading.
The words "nasty, brutish and short" popped up in my mind;)!

Quote from: AsenRG;944632That's interesting, thank you for sharing it:).

I tried to imagine what my life would have been without reading.
The words "nasty, brutish and short" popped up in my mind;)!

I dunno; imagination was always a huge component of our games, back in those far-off days when one couldn't simply pop down to the local game store / e-mail Amazon and get everything you needed for a game 'off the shelf'. Which may be, in some part, why I like Tekumel and the other obscure settings that I like to play in; one has to use one's imagination a lot. In our historical games, though, the same philosophy applied; that little Airfix kit of a tank is the fearsome what-ever-it-is, because I couldn't get a MkIV in time for the game.

So, yes, theater of the mind was always a part of our games, and my ability to astonish people with my models a big part of that.

Agreed. I can't imagine life without my books.

Not to mention that the Shermans were 1/87 scale, the Honeys and Mk. Is and IIs were 1/72 scale, and the Grant was 1/76 scale, because THAT'S WHAT WAS AVAILABLE.