Quote from: chirine ba kal;845066Yes. We have several fertility deities, after all, and children are raised by the clan, and much less by the individual 'family'. There isn't a concept of a 'nuclear family', like most Western societies have. If a woman wants to have a baby, she does, and the clan backs her up to raise and educate the kid.

The father is considered 'noble' if he helps support the child, and kind of looked down on as a cheap twit if he doesn't. Society is mostly matrilineal anyway, so it's the woman's choice, really.

Well, now it makes sense!
I think I've been influenced too much by the Chinese campaigns I had run in the last few years.

And that point of view is totally familiar. It also makes sense in the context.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;845063Because Gary Gygax said so. No, seriously, this was something that Gary wanted Phil to include. Please also see my post #255, on page 26 of this thread; I talked about it there, but I'm happy to talk some more about it if you like.

Would you care to elaborate?
Were the characters as envisioned by MAR Barker closer to "Renaissence Men", knowing a bit of fighting, a bit of spellcasting from their temple, and so on, with everyone possibly having a favoured area:)?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;845068No, because it was published in 1976 in rural Wisconsin, where even mentioning sex was a big no-no, and Gary had very real worried about the backlash it would get. EPT, when it came out back then, was considered a very naughty and risque game for all the casual nudity, homosexual stuff, rampant nipples, and casual sex. People had major-league fits over the thing, back in the day, and these days most of what's in EPT wouldn't cause any raised eyebrows.

Heck, back then the word 'lesbian' was considered very naughty and daring!

Note to self: Wisconsin didn't have nearly enough hippies in the 60ies...
And yes, EPT didn't cause me to raise my brows. I figured it was probably risque for the 70ies, but by my standards, it's just "not too strongly sanitized".

BTW, there's nothing naughty and daring about living on Lesbos island, in and of itself, or at least not any more than living elsewhere in Greece:D!

Quote from: AsenRG;845072Well, now it makes sense!
I think I've been influenced too much by the Chinese campaigns I had run in the last few years.

And that point of view is totally familiar. It also makes sense in the context.


Would you care to elaborate?
Were the characters as envisioned by MAR Barker closer to "Renaissence Men", knowing a bit of fighting, a bit of spellcasting from their temple, and so on, with everyone possibly having a favoured area:)?


Note to self: Wisconsin didn't have nearly enough hippies in the 60ies...
And yes, EPT didn't cause me to raise my brows. I figured it was probably risque for the 70ies, but by my standards, it's just "not too strongly sanitized".

BTW, there's nothing naughty and daring about living on Lesbos island, in and of itself, or at least not any more than living elsewhere in Greece:D!

Happy to help!

Well, Gary strongly favored 'classes' for PC types; Dave strongly favored skills that you bought with points. EPT reflects both approaches, due to the two of them working with Phil - nobody else, in Phil's circle, had any idea of how to write an RPG at that time so...

Oddly enough, what you describe is what Phil himself preferred, and what he used in the now -lost "Skein of Destiny" RPG and the later S&G. His idea was that one had an occupation, with a career path, and one learned what one needed to learn to be able to do that job. We certainly played that way in his games after about 1981, and it did make a lot of sense. We were all 'generalists', with a fair bit of special knowledge that was appropriate to our place in life.

Most Americans are quite unaware of the island in the Aegean...

Quote from: chirine ba kal;845085Happy to help!

Well, Gary strongly favored 'classes' for PC types; Dave strongly favored skills that you bought with points. EPT reflects both approaches, due to the two of them working with Phil - nobody else, in Phil's circle, had any idea of how to write an RPG at that time so...

Suddenly, the actual design of EPT makes sense!
For the first time, might I add:).
It just makes sense to include what the people advising you are recommending.

QuoteOddly enough, what you describe is what Phil himself preferred, and what he used in the now -lost "Skein of Destiny" RPG and the later S&G. His idea was that one had an occupation, with a career path, and one learned what one needed to learn to be able to do that job. We certainly played that way in his games after about 1981, and it did make a lot of sense. We were all 'generalists', with a fair bit of special knowledge that was appropriate to our place in life.

I'm afraid I've never heard of the "Skein of Destiny" RPG. But yeah, many games have been doing it this way - and by now, it's been decades since the first such appeared.
It's just that neither of those games is D&D, and they weren't written by Gary Gygax.

QuoteMost Americans are quite unaware of the island in the Aegean...

Well, it's in a neighbouring country for me, so I should be expected to know a bit more;).

chirine ba kal:

I assume that when playing, a character succeeds at something that is their Original Skills or Professional Skills unless something specifically says a roll is required.
Is this correct? Someone once said that the "likelihood of a spell working" should be used for Skills as well.
This seems not fun to me but, is it the way you use the rules?

The EPT rules say spells, some Eyes, and other magical devices attacks
are "automatic hits" and the only defensive possible against them is a successful saving throw.

I always assumed that if there was a serious question of a Skill being successful then a Saving Throw could be used.
=

Is there a Clan Registry or do each Clan keep their own records of what other clans there are?

Where would a "Country Bumpkin" go to find a branch of their clan in a city?

Would the average person on the street know more than just the largest and the ones they have specifically dealt with (or were local)?

What about temples or shrines?
Assuming there are a multitude of aspects that a person could focus on for worship and/or offerings.
How does one find where they are located?
=

Quote from: AsenRG;845090Suddenly, the actual design of EPT makes sense!
For the first time, might I add:).
It just makes sense to include what the people advising you are recommending.


I'm afraid I've never heard of the "Skein of Destiny" RPG. But yeah, many games have been doing it this way - and by now, it's been decades since the first such appeared.
It's just that neither of those games is D&D, and they weren't written by Gary Gygax.


Well, it's in a neighbouring country for me, so I should be expected to know a bit more;).

Yep; I'd agree.

"Skein" existed only in manuscript form. Phil started it about 1979, and abandoned it after it simply got too bid and unwieldy. It was S&G, but with everything all in one volume. It would have been over 1,200 pages in manuscript.

Agreed about the Gygax reference, too. Who remembers Dave Arneson, anymore?

Quote from: Greentongue;845121chirine ba kal:

I assume that when playing, a character succeeds at something that is their Original Skills or Professional Skills unless something specifically says a roll is required.
Is this correct? Someone once said that the "likelihood of a spell working" should be used for Skills as well.
This seems not fun to me but, is it the way you use the rules?

The EPT rules say spells, some Eyes, and other magical devices attacks
are "automatic hits" and the only defensive possible against them is a successful saving throw.

I always assumed that if there was a serious question of a Skill being successful then a Saving Throw could be used.
=

Yes. Phil would have you roll, but if you had the skill for that action it was pretty much a foregone conclusion that you'd succeed. He wanted to have the option of something like a fumble happening, but if you were any good at something it never came up. He never used the spell working roll for a skill-related test.

Yes. That's pretty much the way Phil did it; the object of your actions would roll a simple saving throw. It was quicker that way, and often funnier.

Quote from: Greentongue;845122Is there a Clan Registry or do each Clan keep their own records of what other clans there are?

Where would a "Country Bumpkin" go to find a branch of their clan in a city?

Would the average person on the street know more than just the largest and the ones they have specifically dealt with (or were local)?

What about temples or shrines?
Assuming there are a multitude of aspects that a person could focus on for worship and/or offerings.
How does one find where they are located?
=

Yes, to both. The Imperium's Palace of the Realm keeps a central registry of all clans, as well as all of the local ones - no matter how small or obscure. Asking there can result in some very interesting things happening. The clans also keep their own lists, carefully annotated with 'who we like and don't like' and why and in what context. A clan might be opposed to another for business reasons, but allied for political ones. Or the reverse, too.

They would have been provided with a letter of introduction from their home clan house, and given detailed directions on how to get there if they were not already provided with a guide. There are 'transport' clans that specialize in moving goods and people, and these would take care of the visitor at the behest of the local clan. One can always ask at the Palace of the Realm, too. The city guards at the gate will also know, as well.

Could be, depending on the status of the person being asked. The higher level the person, the more likely they might know. (I'd roll percentile dice for them knowing the answer to the question, myself.) I normally ask one of the market urchins, who seem to know everything, and then hire them as a local guide. It's cheaper and more efficient, as the kids seem to know everything and everyone - for a small consideration, of course!

(On a side note, my palace has 'market urchins' - the Court Pages - who seem to know everything and everyone in the palace, and what's going on at any given time. Everybody thinks I've got this wonderful ability to know what's going on, with eyes in the back of my head, but it's all nonsense. I just ask the Pages, 'cause they know everything. Do not play games of skill and chance with them, however; you will deeply regret it.)

Yes, there are many, many Aspects to the gods. Ask at the temple of the god or goddess; they have in-house 'chapels' and little mini-temples to the various aspects, and they can provide guides and escorts to any located elsewhere in the local area. The Shrine of the Blue Fish in Khirgar is a good example; ask at the Temple of Ksarul, and they'll be happy to take you there. You can also ask at the Imperium's Palace of the Priesthoods for this kind of information, and also the city guards would probably know. Again, you can always ask the urchins; they are usually honest - for a small consideration, of course - and both better informed and more discreet.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;845166The city guards at the gate will also know, as well.

I would expect the City Guards to know the Ones That Matter and not every 2 bit clan in existence.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;845166Could be, depending on the status of the person being asked. The higher level the person, the more likely they might know. (I'd roll percentile dice for them knowing the answer to the question, myself.)

Like the City Guard, I would expect them to know only Those That Matter.
Unlike the Guard I would think they would know the Top People in the Top Clans and the lesser ones that their clan deals with directly.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;845166I normally ask one of the market urchins, who seem to know everything, and then hire them as a local guide. It's cheaper and more efficient, as the kids seem to know everything and everyone - for a small consideration, of course!

Gods Bless the Urchins!
=

chirine ba kal:

Do clans borrow items from other clans?

If so, what happens if they don't or can't give the item back?

As with items, what about people?

If a clan member is enslaved, how far will their clan go to recover them?

What about impressed into service by the Imperial Navy or Army?
Do they serve and the clan gets compensation? Can the clan "trade" a person?
=

Quote from: Greentongue;845255I would expect the City Guards to know the Ones That Matter and not every 2 bit clan in existence.

Like the City Guard, I would expect them to know only Those That Matter.
Unlike the Guard I would think they would know the Top People in the Top Clans and the lesser ones that their clan deals with directly.

Gods Bless the Urchins!
=

Agreed; that's where the money usually is...

On the other hand, in smaller towns the city guards are usually members of the two-bit clans.

Agreed; you have it down quite accurately!

Indeed; they've saved my sorry butt on a number of occasions.

Quote from: Greentongue;845256chirine ba kal:

Do clans borrow items from other clans?

If so, what happens if they don't or can't give the item back?

As with items, what about people?

If a clan member is enslaved, how far will their clan go to recover them?

What about impressed into service by the Imperial Navy or Army?
Do they serve and the clan gets compensation? Can the clan "trade" a person?
=

Yes.

They pay shamtla money in compensation.

Yes. Same answer; compensation is paid. (We actually had a court case that we tried in Phil's campaign for some UK gamers over a valuable sword that was in a situation like you describe, by the way.)

Pretty far; it's considered pretty dire (and an embarrassing scandal!) to have one's clan-cousin get sold into slavery. Aside from people born slaves, getting sold into slavery is usually for failing to pay one's debts; the clan will normally try to step in and pay the debts, and then make the debtor work off the debt to the clan as a whole. The clan will not be amused, and the debtor will be in the clan's bad graces until they repay their 'ransom'.

The Imperial military doesn't impress people for military service proper; it's not 'noble'. People do get turned out for what I'd call 'forced labor' for things like digging, moving supplies, etc., but they'd all be from low-status clans - or unlucky PCs, who happen to be in the neighborhood. Clans-people who get 'requisitioned' get paid a bit of money - never very much! - for their labor, and their clan does usually get a payment n compensation for the loss of their labor while they are in Imperial service.

Yes, the clan can exchange one person for another in the corvee; higher-status people in the clan, or those who are in the clan's 'good graces', will usually not have to serve. They'll be 'exchanged' for low-status people or those in bad odor with the clan-elders. The Imperium is not fussy about who gets drafted for work - all they do is tell the clan that such and such a number of people are wanted for such and such a time in such and such a place, and the clan sends the people as required.

As you might guess, it's a system ripe with opportunities for abuse and fraud, and is usually a source of problems for everyone concerned. Clans have been known to 'sweep' the Foreigners' Quarter of the nearest large city, rounding up all the low-status foreigners that they can find, and then sending these people off as the requisitioned workers and keeping their own people at home.

Personally, I have always preferred to hire 'temporary workers' from reputable clans. I do not keep slaves, because I'd prefer not to have my throat cut while I'm asleep; part of my 'back story' is that I was assigned to the Imperial forces that put down the nasty slave revolt in and around the town of Ferenara. (A player got the fief, and thought that he could raise a private army by arming slaves. Guess how well that worked? This was in the old "Dragon", by the way.) It's just safer and more efficient to have hired staff, if you ask me; impressed labor looks cheaper at first glance, but there is always a problem or problems that come up.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;845259(A player got the fief, and thought that he could raise a private army by arming slaves. Guess how well that worked? This was in the old "Dragon", by the way.)

I remember that ...

Actually, it was a valuable early lesson in how Tekumel was not formed by the myths of late 20th century America, where if you free and arm slaves they will be devoted to you as their liberator.  Simon Bolivar he wasn't.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;845012Tekumel has very different sexual mores from Earth, or at least late 20th century midwestern American Earth.  For starters they aren't embarrassed by sex.  Neither are a lot of non-American cultures in real life, for that matter.

I'm convinced that most of the people in Europe who were embarrassed by sex emigrated to America.
   

Quote from: chirine ba kal;845085Most Americans are quite unaware of the island in the Aegean...

Sapphic poetry just isn't as popular as it used to be. Personally, I blame HBO.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;845160Yep; I'd agree.

"Skein" existed only in manuscript form. Phil started it about 1979, and abandoned it after it simply got too bid and unwieldy. It was S&G, but with everything all in one volume. It would have been over 1,200 pages in manuscript.

Agreed about the Gygax reference, too. Who remembers Dave Arneson, anymore?

Too bad it wasn't ever finished. And well, games like Pathfinder are 900 pages in print, for much less bang per page if you ask me:).

Well, I remember him having existed, but I don't remember Arneson himself.
And my point was simply that if Gary Gygax, who proved himself to be the better businessman, had favoured a different approach to systems, both Tekumel and D&D would have had a different system. If it had been Marc Miller instead, Tekumel would have been heavily career-based.
Whether such a change would have impacted D&D's popularity is up for speculation. Tekumel would have been about as popular as it is now, I'd think;).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;845269I remember that ...

Actually, it was a valuable early lesson in how Tekumel was not formed by the myths of late 20th century America, where if you free and arm slaves they will be devoted to you as their liberator.  Simon Bolivar he wasn't.

I wonder why. Even in Rome freed slaves were considered clients;).

Quote from: Bren;845277I’m convinced that most of the people in Europe who were embarrassed by sex emigrated to America.

Your theory doesn't sound unlikely:D!