Quote from: chirine ba kal;838194Let's hear from my leaden alter ego, eh?

"Well, let's see; I should mention at the start that I am a Tenth Circle Military Sorcerer of the Temple of Vimuhla, Lord of Flame and War. I was rolled up in early 1976, using EPT as the rules. In EPT, I am off the charts as these only go to Ninth Circle - I got the impression that the Professor didn't expect any of us to live long enough to go any higher."

"I hate to be the one to have to say this, but there is none of what you'd call 'magic' on Tekumel. There is no divine or arcane magic; it's all technology of the Ancients. When I 'cast a spell', I reach through the Skin of Reality to tap the energies of the Planes Beyond; what I do with my vocables and gestures, glyphs and incense, etc., or with my concentrations is to replicate the 'circuit boards' of the Ancient technology that is used in devices like the Eyes or the tubeway cars."

"Likewise, 'summoning a demon' is nothing like what the mages of your world try to do; in my world, I reach through the Planes of Reality to contact other beings, and bring them to my bubble universe to get something done. I myself, for example, regularly got 'summoned as a demon' to the odd world of Blackmoor by the Elven mages I knew in order to get things done for them. (I wish they'd called first; I was in the bathtub.)"

"When I use my skills, I serve as the 'software' / 'hardware' / 'wetware' for using the energies I draw upon. Eyes do the very same thing, but in a much more handy form for non-priests."

Right, then. I'll let you in on one of The Big Secrets Of The Game Industry: Tekumel, at least as practiced by one Firu ba Yeker / M. A. R. Barker, is not a 'fantasy role-playing game'. It's a game setting in a 'Sword and Planet Romance' universe, and the technology is what is doing all the work. No divine (the 'gods' are simply more advanced beings then we are), no arcane, no Vancian magic - it's all Sir Arthur's Third Law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." The Lords of Humanspace were absolute masters of energy and matter, and could control anything.

The 'magic' description in EPT came from Gary, who felt that the gamers of the time (1975) would not be able to deal with a 'pure' SF RPG; he felt that calling it 'magic' would make it more accessible to the gamer audience. In effect, EPT paved the way for Metamorphosis Alpha at TSR. (Likewise, Gary asked that the Stability/Change thing be changed to Good/Evil, as he thought that the former was going to be too subtle for gamers to handle.)

When technic civilization on Tekumel collapsed, the various sages figured out ways to continue to tap other-planar energy through rituals and such; simpler 'spells' are those called 'psychic', and can be done by simply thinking about them; more elaborate ones are 'ritual', because you need to have 'ingredients' to make them work.

As a military sorcerer, I was unique amongst Phil's players - I have a very limited spell corpora. I do not have many of the usual spells that most players have. On the other hand, I do have what would have been the 'M series' spells in S&G if Phil had included them - the very powerful battlefield spells that mean that I am a pretty potent weapon in a one person package. It also means that I am a very high-value target for foes, and I tend to attract a lot of incoming attention. Hence the steel armor, which is a weapon in it's own right.

As a player-character, I am actually pretty useless in most adventuring parties. In effect, I am what I think is called a 'tank' in the RPG setting, and I am pretty good at melee combat. Give me a little fighting room, and some energy to manipulate, and I can do some pretty Big Things...

Does this help, or have I made things worse?

Well then. All of that is pretty awesome sounding.

Quote from: econobus;838199Love it. The assumption matches what I've seen and the sense of his style matches what I've been able to reconstruct over the years. If there had been a grand ur-setting in a filing cabinet somewhere, it would have been published. As for style, a jazz metaphor comes to mind in which the only part of the number that can be easily replicated is actually very vestigial, but the improvised solo -- the performance, the "jamming" -- is a unique interaction among all parties.

A little different from playing in a cover band.



Happy to take it to PM or even something more civilized. I came out of the wilds of Atenveldt so have no dog in any fights. It's just interesting to me why a "Middle Rite" never evolved up there, speaking of searches for rules-based legitimacy, etc. Thank you already.

1. Very much so - this a really good way to describe the way Dave played and GM'd.

2. Yeah. The Middle Kingdom was, at least in my time, too geographically spread out to be a viable political entity. The kingdom's focus was always to the east, due to travel times more then anything else. Anything west or north of Chicago was in effect cut off from the center of things in the kingdom which is one of the reasons that Northshield was being mooted about as early as 1977. It was more like Italy in the 1400s, then anything else, with the north being the center of things and the south and Sicily being more or less ignored.

Quote from: AxesnOrcs;838204Well then. All of that is pretty awesome sounding.

Thank you! I hope I'm helping, here.

This is, I think, why Tekumel is a difficult thing for people to get their heads around - "impenetrable", as one reviewer described it.

We all came out of F/SF fandom at the time, and we 'got' the many references that Phil included in his world - the Grey Lensmen, Barsoom, Conan, and the Lovecraftian mythos. Phil had been very active in fandom in the 1940s and 1950s, and it really showed.

Have a look at "A Princess of Mars"; I think you'll see some fun stuff...

Quote from: chirine ba kal;838194"I hate to be the one to have to say this, but there is none of what you'd call 'magic' on Tekumel. There is no divine or arcane magic; it's all technology of the Ancients.

I could have sworn that was in the original TSR EPT rules. I know we knew that back in the 1970s and we had to have learned it from somewhere. As far as I know, none of us played with the Minneapolis or Wisconsin crowds.

The three oddities about EPT to my recollection were (1) essentially no metal, armor and weapons made of that weird hardened chlen hide stuff, (2) no riding beasts in the major Empires, and (3) magic was really tech with the weird eyes and subway cars and stuff. Definitely swords and planets or like a lot of Andre Norton's or Leigh Brackett's stories.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;838208Thank you! I hope I'm helping, here.

This is, I think, why Tekumel is a difficult thing for people to get their heads around - "impenetrable", as one reviewer described it.

If this was ever "wrapped up" it may help new players.
You, too, CAN run Empire of the Petal Throne

Quote from: chirine ba kal;838205The Middle Kingdom was, at least in my time, too geographically spread out to be a viable political entity.

Thanks. I get that feeling! In a world where the "North Woods" starts in Ann Arbor you all must have been in the true back of beyond, which is a shame because I think of the Twin Cities scene as being such a more vibrant fandom in general. Your people should have been free decades previously but that's just the Aten in me talking.

Got to keep this gamey, I guess. Um, did anyone ever interact with the Gods of Pavar directly, or were they more like abstract cultural fixtures that peasants venerated sincerely, philosophers classed as "entities" and nobody met face to face?

Quote from: Bren;838210I could have sworn that was in the original TSR EPT rules. I know we knew that back in the 1970s and we had to have learned it from somewhere. As far as I know, none of us played with the Minneapolis or Wisconsin crowds.

The three oddities about EPT to my recollection were (1) essentially no metal, armor and weapons made of that weird hardened chlen hide stuff, (2) no riding beasts in the major Empires, and (3) magic was really tech with the weird eyes and subway cars and stuff. Definitely swords and planets or like a lot of Andre Norton's or Leigh Brackett's stories.

I believe you are right - it'd be in the historical introduction section in EPT. Phil also expanded on this in S&G I, too.

Yep, those three features are Tekumel's unique 'signature items'. In the context of the fantasy literature of the time, they were really odd; in the context of space opera or sword and planet, they're kinda par for the course...

Quote from: Greentongue;838219If this was ever "wrapped up" it may help new players.
You, too, CAN run Empire of the Petal Throne

Agreed! I'm not sure that there's an easy or good way to do this. Any suggestions would be welcome!

Quote from: econobus;838220Thanks. I get that feeling! In a world where the "North Woods" starts in Ann Arbor you all must have been in the true back of beyond, which is a shame because I think of the Twin Cities scene as being such a more vibrant fandom in general. Your people should have been free decades previously but that's just the Aten in me talking.

Got to keep this gamey, I guess. Um, did anyone ever interact with the Gods of Pavar directly, or were they more like abstract cultural fixtures that peasants venerated sincerely, philosophers classed as "entities" and nobody met face to face?

1. The center of gravity of the middle was in Ohio; getting anyone from the royal court up to the Twin Cities was like pulling teeth. The principality-in-embryo simply didn't have enough people to be viable for decades; no people, no groups, and those that did exist were very few, very small, and very far between.

2. Why, yes, we did all the time. But then, we were the top of the cream of the crop of the elite, and so we tended to see more of the gods then anybody else. Most of the people of Tekumel were like what you postulate; the gods were abstractions, more then anything else. Mind you, I would have rather had the meddlers stay abstractions, but they tended to want to get their tentacles into everything...

Quote from: chirine ba kal;838224I believe you are right - it'd be in the historical introduction section in EPT. Phil also expanded on this in S&G I, too.

Yep, those three features are Tekumel's unique 'signature items'. In the context of the fantasy literature of the time, they were really odd; in the context of space opera or sword and planet, they're kinda par for the course...

Certainly not any weirder than the Mars books of Burroughs, Tharks, air plants, flying battle ships, and the beautiful Deja Thoris laying an egg for her and John Carter's child.

I wonder how much of an influence the Ace reprints and the Science Fiction Book Club had on extending the knowledge and influence of the earlier swords and planets and space opera fiction of the 20s, 30s, and 40s? I wonder if there is anything like that today for young people?

Thank you kindly chirine!

The answers to my questions were very helpful and not confusing at all

One thing sprang to mind though. When you mention that you always leveled after a training period, one person quite recently told me that he read somewhere (as you see this is all umphteenth hand hearsay) that it was Gary who decided at some point that "fuck this, you can level when you get the XP". In his rules what I've read it was always stated that you need to level up in a town.

Can you confirm or debunk any of this?

Now I'll go read all the posts that have come after that your particular comment...

Edit - oh, oh, oh. That bit about stability/change being changed to good/evil bit was absolutely wonderful

Quote from: Moracai;838246When you mention that you always leveled after a training period, one person quite recently told me that he read somewhere (as you see this is all umphteenth hand hearsay) that it was Gary who decided at some point that "fuck this, you can level when you get the XP". In his rules what I've read it was always stated that you need to level up in a town.

OD&D, the three little brown books in the woodgrain box, says nothing about "where you level up."  I'm not familiar with any later versions of the rules.

In actual play, you got XP when the adventure was over.  Since Gary always made sure that a night of playing ended with everybody in some sort of safe haven... town, inn, castle, what have you... we essentially got XP at the end of the night, and if you leveled, you leveled there and then.

I'm not sure where "need to level up in a town" came from, but as I said I have no familiarity with anything after the first printing of OD&D.

Two more.

You say that your character was very well aware that Tekumel was in a dimension bubble and all the magicy stuff happening was actually channeling power to these archaic things. But how aware of that fact was the laymen people on average?


Second one is about the interconsistency of things in this world. I have full confidence that there is, but again reading from a review, one guy wrote about a field of towers, or some such. Where there were ancient rocket propelled grenades, or rockets, I forget which (These types of forums RPG is the only thing that cannot be abbreviated to a flying explody thingy), and complained how they would have been functioning after tens of thousands of years.

I kinda have the answer already (it's magic Well ancient tech is beyond our comprehension), but did you personally ever had moments of *what* that does not make any sense to me?

Quote from: Old Geezer;838248OD&D, the three little brown books in the woodgrain box, says nothing about "where you level up."  I'm not familiar with any later versions of the rules.

In actual play, you got XP when the adventure was over.  Since Gary always made sure that a night of playing ended with everybody in some sort of safe haven... town, inn, castle, what have you... we essentially got XP at the end of the night, and if you leveled, you leveled there and then.

I'm not sure where "need to level up in a town" came from, but as I said I have no familiarity with anything after the first printing of OD&D.

So in essence OD&D sessions ended with crunch, but Tekumel sessions began with crunch?

Edit - if someone leveled that is.

OK, one more then I'll call it a night.

Chirine, do you speak Tsoylani?