Quote from: Bren;840934Thanks Chirine! I really enjoyed that. It's not to different to how we play now. It reminds me of the sea battles we've done, though sadly our ships did not have such superior gunnery. And the writing is similar to what I strive for and may, on a good day, achieve.

Thank you! All I'm doing is telling it like it happened - yes, Dave mimed spitting over the rail, as part of his sea captain persona.

And yes, he was very heavily armed; he thought was that he dealt in low-volume, high-value, and quite illegal cargoes, he would attract a lot of unwelcome attention from undesirable people. As for his ship-handling, may I suggest "Don't Give Up The Ship" by Gygax and Arneson?

Quote from: Greentongue;840973Of course that just makes waiting to get my grubby hands on the entire series that much harder ... Thanks ...
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You're very welcome. The current plan on the part of my publisher is to have the six books released in  a hardback format, with lots of good illustrations. I will simply be handing him the manuscript, and he'll take it from there.

I am current;y at 108,000 words, of a projected 300,000; each of the six volumes is planned to be about 50,000 words long, in order to make my career more manageable to read. Each volume can be read as an individual book, as I'm going to include a timeline and other data in each to make the whole campaign understandable.

We have with Phil for over a decade - closer to fifteen years, really - and I have a lot of stories to tell...

Quote from: chirine ba kal;841005As for his ship-handling, may I suggest "Don't Give Up The Ship" by Gygax and Arneson?

I don't think I ever played it. I had friends who were into naval warfare, mostly Fletcher Pratt I think, but I never ended up doing that. Napoleonic warfare would be anachronistic for the 1620s though. Mostly what I meant was, from the description of the battle the crew and officers of Captain Harchar's ship seem more competent than their opponents. Such was not really the case in our two sea battles. Also there were no wizard-priests.

The first battle the PCs were passengers on a Dutch warship and we helped capture the enemy vessel, a Dunkerquer pirate, but the PCs managed to piss off the Dutch captain and he put them ashore on the nearest coast, which just happened to be next to the town Steenbergen just as Luis de Velasco y Velasco, 2nd Count of Salazar was capturing the town. Cue flight of the PCs south, capture, escape, and trapped in the siege of Bergen op Zoom.

After the Spanish gave up the siege, the PCs took passage on a Dutch merchant vessel that was attacked by a Barbary Corsair. The merchant captain was a coward and ended up losing his ship to the Corsairs. Meanwhile, the PCs managed to lead part of the crew in a boarding action and captured the Corsair galley. Both sides ended up sailing off in the other's ship. The cowardly Dutch captain ended up as a prisoner of the Corsairs.

Quote from: Bren;841042I don't think I ever played it. I had friends who were into naval warfare, mostly Fletcher Pratt I think, but I never ended up doing that. Napoleonic warfare would be anachronistic for the 1620s though. Mostly what I meant was, from the description of the battle the crew and officers of Captain Harchar's ship seem more competent than their opponents. Such was not really the case in our two sea battles. Also there were no wizard-priests.

The first battle the PCs were passengers on a Dutch warship and we helped capture the enemy vessel, a Dunkerquer pirate, but the PCs managed to piss off the Dutch captain and he put them ashore on the nearest coast, which just happened to be next to the town Steenbergen just as Luis de Velasco y Velasco, 2nd Count of Salazar was capturing the town. Cue flight of the PCs south, capture, escape, and trapped in the siege of Bergen op Zoom.

After the Spanish gave up the siege, the PCs took passage on a Dutch merchant vessel that was attacked by a Barbary Corsair. The merchant captain was a coward and ended up losing his ship to the Corsairs. Meanwhile, the PCs managed to lead part of the crew in a boarding action and captured the Corsair galley. Both sides ended up sailing off in the other's ship. The cowardly Dutch captain ended up as a prisoner of the Corsairs.

Oh, right; gotcha. Great sea story, too!!!

[And I assume that you know that the Barbary Corsairs raided as far as Ireland and Iceland, too... ]

'Napoleonic' sea warfare isn't all that different then what went on in the 1600s; the Anglo-Dutch wars or the Anglo-French are very easily played wth DGUTS, as the technology is much the same - land warfare in the two periods is very, very different, of course. The major changes between the 1620s and the 1810s is the revolution in signaling and the huge paradigm shift in tactics; Home-Popham's signalling book caused both a tactical and a mental revolution. If de Ruyter had had it, there'd be a pretty good chance that the sun would have never set on the Dutch Empire.

[All of this from a conversation with Dave Arneson; I am an ECW buff, and we got on the subject when I was setting up my ECW-period 'Tangier' campaign. You story about your players rings true - it would have been par for the course back in that campaign. ]

Harchar and his merry band of "honest seafaring merchants" were really, really good at what they did, which was delivering the highly illegal goods anywhere they might be sellable. His big merchantman was also not what it seemed above the waterline; below, it was a very fine hull form an a lot faster then it looked - and much more nimble, too. Phil pointedly asked Dave if this was 'authentic', and Arneson trotted out all sorts of ship plans to show Phil why French ships were always so in demand by the British; Dave's ships were, in Napoleonic terms, French frigates with British crews. He also bought the very best weaponry he could get, the very best crew that he could find, and when you add in his own personal skill as a ship-handler and -fighter you just didn't mess with him if you valued your life and ship. People kept learning this the hard way, over the years...

(Tekumel is not a friendly environment; we humans are not at the top of the food chain, and so people get really good at what they do really quickly; otherwise, they get dead.)

All of those guys were really fearsomely competent: Arneson, Maker, Wesley, Soukup, Funk, Gaylord, Bjugen, Jenkins, the whole lot of them. When you faced them across the game table, you expected to have them do everything they could to rip your heart out and feed it to you with Tobasco Sauce on it. They were not 'power gamers', or what I think is called 'min-max players'; they were just that good, and that's the school of play that OG and I joined in with.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;841084Oh, right; gotcha. Great sea story, too!!!

[And I assume that you know that the Barbary Corsairs raided as far as Ireland and Iceland, too... ]

Thanks and I do. That's why the Corsairs were in la Manche (or what the Goddamns hubristically call the English Channel).

QuoteIf de Ruyter had had it, there'd be a pretty good chance that the sun would have never set on the Dutch Empire.

The Dutch also had the disadvantage of not being on a real island. They could flood their fields, but they were still much more open to French invasion than Britain and for a next door neighbor they had Louis XIV with the biggest, best army in Europe at the time. Twenty plus miles of sea between them and everyone, gave England a lot more luxury about picking and choosing their alliances.

Quote...got on the subject when I was setting up my ECW-period 'Tangier' campaign. You story about your players rings true - it would have been par for the course back in that campaign.

There may be more sea battles soon. One of the PCs ended up with the corsair xebec which he outfitted as a privateer. He's now in Marseille. Some other PCs are on their way there to accompany Isaac de Ravilly to Salé, Morocco to try to conclude a trade agreement.

I doubt the PC xebec will be as skilled as Harchar though. The PC in charge, Hippolyte de Bouchard known as The Foul Corsair, is not the sharpest cutlass in the rack. And our playstyle is more character simulative than what we did back in the 1970s or how you all played in Tekumel.

QuoteAll of those guys were really fearsomely competent: Arneson, Maker, Wesley, Soukup, Funk, Gaylord, Bjugen, Jenkins, the whole lot of them. When you faced them across the game table, you expected to have them do everything they could to rip your heart out and feed it to you with Tobasco Sauce on it. They were not 'power gamers', or what I think is called 'min-max players'; they were just that good, and that's the school of play that OG and I joined in with.

I think that is often the case with people who come to RPGs from a war gaming background. We had a number of folks like that back in the day. Over time, the play I do moved to more character simulation and most of the players I have now are more interested in that then in giving free rein to the player's tactical acumen. The guy playing the Corsair is easily the best at tactics of my players (he's one of the original group from 1974), but he reins it in while enjoying hamming it up playing a dumb pirate. Strokes, folks they can be different.

Quote from: Bren;841092Thanks and I do. That's why the Corsairs were in la Manche (or what the Goddamns hubristically call the English Channel).

The Dutch also had the disadvantage of not being on a real island. They could flood their fields, but they were still much more open to French invasion than Britain and for a next door neighbor they had Louis XIV with the biggest, best army in Europe at the time. Twenty plus miles of sea between them and everyone, gave England a lot more luxury about picking and choosing their alliances.

There may be more sea battles soon. One of the PCs ended up with the corsair xebec which he outfitted as a privateer. He's now in Marseille. Some other PCs are on their way there to accompany Isaac de Ravilly to Salé, Morocco to try to conclude a trade agreement.

I doubt the PC xebec will be as skilled as Harchar though. The PC in charge, Hippolyte de Bouchard known as The Foul Corsair, is not the sharpest cutlass in the rack. And our playstyle is more character simulative than what we did back in the 1970s or how you all played in Tekumel.

I think that is often the case with people who come to RPGs from a war gaming background. We had a number of folks like that back in the day. Over time, the play I do moved to more character simulation and most of the players I have now are more interested in that then in giving free rein to the player's tactical acumen. The guy playing the Corsair is easily the best at tactics of my players (he's one of the original group from 1974), but he reins it in while enjoying hamming it up playing a dumb pirate. Strokes, folks they can be different.

Very cool - I love this conversation, as it's nice to talk to somebody who knows about the corsairs lurking in the mists!

Agreed about having dear old Louis for a neighbor; all those loud parties involving all those soldiers!

I also agree with you about the different strokes and all that; if your group is having fun doing what they are doing, then that's what I'd consider the important thing...

Quote from: chirine ba kal;841127Very cool - I love this conversation, as it's nice to talk to somebody who knows about the corsairs lurking in the mists!

Oh, I'm an ocean of trivia. It does seem odd to think of Barbary Corsairs from sunny Morocco raiding rainy Cork or Kerry though. I don't think I'd have wanted to sail the eastern Atlantic in any type of galley.

QuoteI also agree with you about the different strokes and all that; if your group is having fun doing what they are doing, then that's what I'd consider the important thing...

I tend to be in the middle on a lot of gaming issues. Things seem most fun when the players and the GM are mostly in synch on what they like. Your Tekumel stories sound like something I would have and still would enjoy. I'm glad you've decided to stay around for at least a little longer. I'll be watching for your adventure corpus. It sounds fun and I shamelessly steal gaming ideas from anywhere.

Quote from: Bren;841149Oh, I'm an ocean of trivia. It does seem odd to think of Barbary Corsairs from sunny Morocco raiding rainy Cork or Kerry though. I don't think I'd have wanted to sail the eastern Atlantic in any type of galley.

I tend to be in the middle on a lot of gaming issues. Things seem most fun when the players and the GM are mostly in synch on what they like. Your Tekumel stories sound like something I would have and still would enjoy. I'm glad you've decided to stay around for at least a little longer. I'll be watching for your adventure corpus. It sounds fun and I shamelessly steal gaming ideas from anywhere.

My guess is that's why the xebec was developed; I don't think they used a 'straight' galley like you'd have found in the Med - on either side, given the way Louis sent people to the galleys.

Yes, I think you would have loved it out at Phil's; during most of the time we were gaming with him, we were also his 'publishing staff', with writers and artists all playing. We, to use your phrase, were very much 'in synch' with him.

I'll keep writing away, then , shall I?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;841155I'll keep writing away, then , shall I?

Please do.

Chirine, please keep writing! Just make sure there would be a PDF option as well or the shipping issues might well kill another portion of my soul as well!

Quote from: Old Geezer;840666It's because he was never self-conscious about his hobbies and thus felt no need to promote the idea that "This is not a game, this is A NARTFORM" by emphasizing the sociological and linguistic elements to the exclusion of running around being chased by monsters.

Phil used the sociological and linguistic elements as spice, not the main ingredients.

I have equal issues with the[ I]gaming can't be any nartform[/I] crowd.
Using sociology and linguistics as the basis of your GMing style is fine with me. Using them to the exclusion of everything else is the problem here.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;840709Agreed; Phil never force-fed any of that to us; we just did it, absorbing it along the way.

Maybe I'm just getting old, but whatever happened to the sheer joy of playing with healthy doses of laughter along the way? Like the time you personally routed Baron Ald's super-elite guards by running into his camp whilst shrieking mad cries and leaping into, over, and through the camp fire in front of his tent - and not once, but twice? (This was after the Storming of Castle Tilketl, for anyone who's taking notes.) The Baron was mightily impressed, his guards all panicked, and Lord Fu Shi (the most powerful of powerful sorcerers!) got really annoyed.

This reminds me of some recent stories from our sessions:-D.

Quote from: Greentongue;840717If only a renaissance of EPT could bring that back...
Maybe an Anime style series of Escapades in The Empire would interest a new generation in the setting?
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It probably would, but the IP would likely be a problem.

Quote from: Old Geezer;840747Another interesting point about the "skullduggery and intrigue/serious nartform" approach.  The other group was lying, cheating, murdering, and swindling their way up the Imperial ranks.

My character, at that time a Kasi (commander of a cohort, 400 troops) won a "Kadarli," a "ritual battle," a case of "I challenge the army of Yan Kor to send one cohort of troops to this place at this time."

I was brought before the Petal Throne itself.  The great Hirkane hi Tlakotani, "Perfumer of the Nostrils of the Gods," spoke only in the chiming of a tiny bell, which the chamberlain translated.  The chamberlain was also whispering constant protocol instructions in my ear so this foreigner, this southern barbarian, this former gladiator, this low-level soldier, did not make any serious protocol errors.  (See previous comment about not hanging players out to dry for not knowing what their character knows.)

On the floor were three huge heaps of treasure.  The chamberlain indicated that I may choose my reward.

I said, "The only reward I desire is to be allowed to continue to serve the Glory of the Eternal Petal Throne."  (I was an Imperialist from the get-go, Chirine!)

The tiny bell chimed, the chamberlain very nearly got an expression on his face, and he said softly "you have chosen well."

Long story short, I got all THREE piles of treasure, a promotion, citizenship, and a clan.

Remind me sometime to tell you about how I got married.

Great story! And please tell us of your marriage!
The one in T`ekumel, I mean.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;840791Just as a quick footnote - this particular game session was the very first one that I ever played in with Phil. Talk about being thrown in at the deep end... :0

Well, it was fun, wasn't it? Not all new players need a simple setting, to some this approach is counterproductive.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;840445I agree with your points, there.

Yes, there are. All sorts of martial arts using weapons, and also a few schools of unarmed ones known to specialists. Unarmed combat is considered a little 'low class', usually by those getting beaten up by the people who know the style being used...

There's everything between the classic 'peasant with a club' - do not annoy the farmers! - to the fancy young nobleman with a rapier. Some cities are known for particular weapons - Tumissa is famous for crossbows, Makhis for archers, Vra for slingers, and so on.

And yes, the distinction has been important, over the years - the non-human Pe Choi and the Ahoggya are famous for their ability to fight with weapons in all for of their hands. Dexterity is very important for this kind of thing. One quite famous human discipline is the 'Arruche' style, with a weapon in each hand - 'Florentine' style, if you would. My alter ego fights this way, with usually a dagger and shortsword combination, or with a mace and buckler. Getting up close and personal is a survival technique, as one can get 'inside' an opponent's reach and score. It helps that Chirine is ambidextrous - I am as well, which is how I 'sold' it to Phil after a demonstration. (I had a nasty habit of flipping my epee or foil between hands in informal bouts; never worked against me dad, who was a champion fencer and used to such things! I still have his foil, too! )

Let's see; 'Florentine', savate, kenjitsu, judo or kenjitsu (rare, thankfully!), any of the missile weapon arts. I think there's a list in EPT; I know there is in S&G I, The Sourcebook. I think that between the Glorious General and I, I think we've seen anything and everything used - which is why we try to duck a lot!

I figure purely unarmed combat would be low class for someone who despatched a practitioner as well...
Why are you thankful kenjutsu is rare?

And that's great, actually. But then, are the schools clan affiliated, acting as a secondary clan, acting as a new clan, or some combination of those?

Quote from: AsenRG;841232Chirine, please keep writing! Just make sure there would be a PDF option as well or the shipping issues might well kill another portion of my soul as well!

I figure purely unarmed combat would be low class for someone who despatched a practitioner as well...
Why are you thankful kenjutsu is rare?

And that's great, actually. But then, are the schools clan affiliated, acting as a secondary clan, acting as a new clan, or some combination of those?

Right; first off, the idea with my book is to offer it in all sorts of media so that people have a choice. I am not in this for the money; I expect to make nothing off the thing. My goal is to tell people about Tekumel, and our adventures; I'm trying to give people a look at what 'our' Tekumel was like, trying to deal with some of the misconceptions about Phil's creation that I've seen come up over the decades. So, we're looking at e-books, PDFs, and hard copies; nothing is off the table, at this point.

Unarmed combat is regarded as 'low status' by some of the practitioners of the 'weaponed' arts; it also has a little bit of an unsavory reputation due to it being used by both intelligence agencies and the assassins' Black Y Society and the Ndalu Clan. Both groups are very expert in all of the unarmed martial arts, as well as in the more unconventional weapons. Each group also serves society as the 'court of last resort'; if you can't get satisfaction any other way, you go to the assassins and apply to them for having somebody soundly thrashed or even killed. Usually, however, the simple serving of notice by the assassins that they'll be by later that week to give one the business causes people to want to 'settle out of court' pretty rapidly.

The schools are all associated with temples and clans of various sorts, usually the ones with warrior traditions. There are exceptions, of course; the Ndalu Clan is associated with the Temple of Ksarul, doomed Prince of the Blue Room, and the Black Y Society with the Temple of Hry'y. They do hire out, though, and all you have to do is apply for an audience at the front gate of their clan house.

Some nations also have traditions of martial arts; the Livyani are famous for their fighting styles, with savate being very popular. The Salarvyani are not known for this kind of thing, as are the Mu'uglavyani. The Tsolyani sort of have schools, and the Yan Koryani - as in so many other things - are just learning.

So, do we got ninjas? Well, yes, actually...

Quote from: Bren;841092I think that is often the case with people who come to RPGs from a war gaming background. We had a number of folks like that back in the day. Over time, the play I do moved to more character simulation and most of the players I have now are more interested in that then in giving free rein to the player's tactical acumen. The guy playing the Corsair is easily the best at tactics of my players (he's one of the original group from 1974), but he reins it in while enjoying hamming it up playing a dumb pirate. Strokes, folks they can be different.

The two are not exclusionary.  Dave A. could be as goofy as anybody in his characterization of Harchar, which diminished not a whit from his tactical expertise.

See also how many wargame armies are commanded by Sir Hugh Jarce, the Vicomte d'Escargot, Commodore John Paul Georgeringo, Sir Loin of Beef, et. al.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;841243Right; first off, the idea with my book is to offer it in all sorts of media so that people have a choice. I am not in this for the money; I expect to make nothing off the thing. My goal is to tell people about Tekumel, and our adventures; I'm trying to give people a look at what 'our' Tekumel was like, trying to deal with some of the misconceptions about Phil's creation that I've seen come up over the decades. So, we're looking at e-books, PDFs, and hard copies; nothing is off the table, at this point.

In a word, great!

QuoteUnarmed combat is regarded as 'low status' by some of the practitioners of the 'weaponed' arts;

Of course only weapon arts would have this attitude. It's funny, though, since they also contain unarmed elements, grappling at a minimum.
So this means these practitioners also probably see their weapons as signs of status, wealth and/or skill.

Quoteit also has a little bit of an unsavory reputation due to it being used by both intelligence agencies and the assassins' Black Y Society and the Ndalu Clan. Both groups are very expert in all of the unarmed martial arts, as well as in the more unconventional weapons.

Noted. Still,  they are likely to also use weapons whenever possible, because you know, weapons are better than not having an weapon. At the very least, the victim has less time to shout out.

QuoteEach group also serves society as the 'court of last resort'; if you can't get satisfaction any other way, you go to the assassins and apply to them for having somebody soundly thrashed or even killed. Usually, however, the simple serving of notice by the assassins that they'll be by later that week to give one the business causes people to want to 'settle out of court' pretty rapidly.

Note to self, Tsolyani courts suck:D!

QuoteThe schools are all associated with temples and clans of various sorts, usually the ones with warrior traditions. There are exceptions, of course; the Ndalu Clan is associated with the Temple of Ksarul, doomed Prince of the Blue Room, and the Black Y Society with the Temple of Hry'y. They do hire out, though, and all you have to do is apply for an audience at the front gate of their clan house.

Would they provide additional training to a good recruit? That's likely to become a point in the campaign I started tonight:)!
My answer is that they would if you prove yourself. It's not going to change, just wondering how close it is to canon.

QuoteSome nations also have traditions of martial arts; the Livyani are famous for their fighting styles, with savate being very popular. The Salarvyani are not known for this kind of thing, as are the Mu'uglavyani. The Tsolyani sort of have schools, and the Yan Koryani - as in so many other things - are just learning.

Were there any mechanical differences between them in the system you were using at the time?
And I'd expect them all to have combat skills, but some of them would have codified ones and schools, while the rest rely on collections of techniques passed down in a less formal and structured ways.
It helps that I cannot name any place or people that didn't have such traditions...

QuoteSo, do we got ninjas? Well, yes, actually...

Sounds more like fidayin of the Ismaili Nizari, if you ask me;)! Given the known inspirations for T`ekumel including Central Asia, it makes sense.
Which is not to say less competent than ninjas, maybe even the opposite:D.

Quote from: Old Geezer;841294The two are not exclusionary.  Dave A. could be as goofy as anybody in his characterization of Harchar, which diminished not a whit from his tactical expertise.

See also how many wargame armies are commanded by Sir Hugh Jarce, the Vicomte d'Escargot, Commodore John Paul Georgeringo, Sir Loin of Beef, et. al.

Yeah - I'd agree with this.

I think we all tended to 'think tactically', out at Phil's; I think it was a survival thing...

Quote from: Old Geezer;841294The two are not exclusionary.

Yes I get the hamming up can be separate.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;841315I think we all tended to 'think tactically', out at Phil's; I think it was a survival thing...

That's the difference I meant. In one style of play (what I consider old style, i.e. the way I played D&D in the 1970s and Runequest in the 1980s). In that style, the player needs to think tactically for the character to survive and profit. The DM/GM/Referee is running cunning NPCs in a dangerous world where survival is tough. In another style of play thinking tactically is optional - allowed and encouraged for characters for whom tactical acumen is justifiable, but not a requirement, especially for dumb as a bag of rocks, untrained folks. I can enjoy either style. But the second works better for the people and games I have now.