How bureaucratic is your version of the world?
I have gotten the impression that the culture has very controlled like historical Asian cultures. Is this a wrong impression?

Do levels 1 - 3 characters have to get permission to do anything out of their "ordinary"?  How about the average person?

At level 3 and above, how much are the characters "loose cannons" or are they eccentric (or should they be conforming to social norms)?

At what point (if any) can the characters be eccentric without repercussions?
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Quote from: Greentongue;839656How bureaucratic is your version of the world?
I have gotten the impression that the culture has very controlled like historical Asian cultures. Is this a wrong impression?

Do levels 1 - 3 characters have to get permission to do anything out of their "ordinary"?  How about the average person?

At level 3 and above, how much are the characters "loose cannons" or are they eccentric (or should they be conforming to social norms)?

At what point (if any) can the characters be eccentric without repercussions?
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Well, I do what Phil did, on the theory that if was good enough for him it's good enough for me.

1. Depends on where you are. Mu'ugalavya is very heavy on the paperwork, with everything having to be done in quadruplicate, Livyanu and Tsolyanu a lot less - the happy medium, if you will - with Salarvya being almost chaotically disorganized. Yan Kor is just getting started, so they are at about the same level as the Salarvyani, heading to the level of Tsolyanu.

2. Everybody is a 'loose cannon', in some way or another. The basic social unit is the clan, so individuals can pretty do whatever they want to unless they offend somebody. The clan can only do so much to smooth over somebody being offensive, and usually there's a lot of tolerance for what we'd call eccentrics. A wise player always asks first, and if you have the right attitude and possible the right connections one can do pretty much anything that they want to. In general, no matter what one's level might be, this is the basic social policy. Ask your clan elders; they've been around, and can give you good advice.

Like, "Don't pee on the wall of the Temple; the Temple guards will thrash you pretty good, and we'll laugh. And then make you clean it up, sonny."

3. There are some pretty loose cannons in the literature, like the aristocrat who thinks he's one of the Shen, the big reptile non-humans. He's tolerated because he's filthy stinking rich. Out of quite a few of the Professor's PCs, we all had our eccentric aspects; and as long as we paid our taxes, contributed to the clan, and didn't rebel against the Imperium, nobody really cared about what we did.

4. Players can be as eccentric as all heck, provided that they can pay for any offense that they cause - "shamtla" payments. People generally behave pretty well normally - the Great Concordat is a very powerful social force! - and everyone has the Underworlds (where the Concordat does not apply) as a 'safety valve'.

Yes, the cultures are very controlled in comparison to our Western viewpoint of a 'free and open society', but as long as you don't make trouble for other people and for the social units like the clans, temples, and the governments, the Tekumel I played in was pretty wide open and free-wheeling. [Edit for clarity:]  The mantra of "Don't do stupid things," like you would in real life, and things are pretty easy. There is a much greater degree of 'social responsibility' to Tekumel then there seems to be in the classic RPG world-settings - you don't get "murderhobos" in Tekumel, for example.

Does this help?

I guess it can be played "loosely" then as long as you don't do something that your "modern family" wouldn't like when judged by modern values.

Even "black sheep" usually don't intentionally make the entire family mad at them.
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In my game I tried to use "fashion" as a visual status indicator for someone that "wasn't from around here" to be able to read.
With the higher the maintenance the higher the person's status.
Such as fabric, cut of the fabric, accessories, hairdo, nail polish, makeup, body paint, etc...
So some things are intrinsically valuable and others represent the required effort required.

Is this something you think would fit the setting?
If not, what would?
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Quote from: Greentongue;839867I guess it can be played "loosely" then as long as you don't do something that your "modern family" wouldn't like when judged by modern values.

Even "black sheep" usually don't intentionally make the entire family mad at them.
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In my game I tried to use "fashion" as a visual status indicator for someone that "wasn't from around here" to be able to read.
With the higher the maintenance the higher the person's status.
Such as fabric, cut of the fabric, accessories, hairdo, nail polish, makeup, body paint, etc...
So some things are intrinsically valuable and others represent the required effort required.

Is this something you think would fit the setting?
If not, what would?
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Yes, exactly. The 'black sheep' of the family are also the ones that the clans, temples, etc., tend to educate and support as the 'adventurers' of the social group, the ones at the top of the bell curve (usually, in my experience) that are the ones who explore the Underworlds, staff the legions, and lead merchant caravans / trade expeditions into the unknown. Which, with Tekumel, often starts right outside your front door.

'Normal folks', the rest of the family, are quite happy to sit around the clan house and discuss the 'black sheep' in Hushed Tones, agog at the latest scandal or outrage; the clan elders (etc.) will then Think Of Something For The 'Black Sheep To Do'. It makes for some great adventures!

You are also exactly correct about the importance of visual display in the cultures of Tekumel. There is no 'nondescript' clothing; you can read a person's life from what they wear, with the higher the status the more clothes and ornaments they are wearing. Clan and Temple are all shown by wearing the appropriate glyphs on one's costume, which also tell you instantly who and what you're talking to.

The running joke, amongst us very old-timers, is that you an always tell who the secret police are - they're the ones with the most ornate uniforms!

And it's also very finely graded, too; once you get up through the more and more elaborate outfits, up through the 'upper middle class' and into the 'high class' nobility, the costumes become more and more elaborate and use less and less cloth - what little the fashionable noblewoman might be wearing is also the rarest and most expensive stuff available.

Chirine, for example, is instantly recognizable by anyone for what he is - a soldier-priest of the Temple for Vimuhla - by his flame-red tunic and kilt combination, with a leather over-tunic and belt with pouches and 'informal' weapons. In full armor, reserved for the biggest social functions or pitched battles, you can 'read' his career in the inscriptions on the plates - and his collection of scars, from the times he forgot to duck!

Wonderful questions - keep them coming!

Nobody seems to write Sword & Sorcery any more.  Lieber's first Fafhrd & Grey Mouser story was originally titled "Two Sought Adventure."  What ever happened to adventurers who adventured for the sake of adventure?

On the other hand, if I never read another "Destroy the Evil Magical Doohickey and Save the World" trilogy again, it will be altogether too soon.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;839879You are also exactly correct about the importance of visual display in the cultures of Tekumel. There is no 'nondescript' clothing; you can read a person's life from what they wear, with the higher the status the more clothes and ornaments they are wearing. Clan and Temple are all shown by wearing the appropriate glyphs on one's costume, which also tell you instantly who and what you're talking to.

For the first couple of months that we played D&D, DMs tended to describe what you saw by title, e.g. "three Swashbucklers" or "four Conjurors" which quickly rise to jokes about the NPCs wearing t-shirts or surcoats with a numeral '5' or the number '3' clearly written on the front. Amazingly descriptions soon changed to the less precise "three men in plate armor" or "four guys in robes."

I guess if we had been on Tekumel we might not have needed to change. Instead we could have just assumed the glyph for five or three were painted on their chlen hide armor or woven into their somewhat utilitarian robes.

It is hard enough to give the "feeling of their relative strength" in a setting that is familiar. The example being your Swashbucklers and Conjurers.
How can you do so when everything is alien without obvious clues?

What is wrong with the obvious clues when it is information that characters would know even if the players don't?

At what point in your gaming does "Game" override "Simulation"?
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Quote from: Old Geezer;840015Nobody seems to write Sword & Sorcery any more.  Lieber's first Fafhrd & Grey Mouser story was originally titled "Two Sought Adventure."  What ever happened to adventurers who adventured for the sake of adventure?

On the other hand, if I never read another "Destroy the Evil Magical Doohickey and Save the World" trilogy again, it will be altogether too soon.

It went out of fashion when Deep Thought and Deep Meaningful Concepts came in. Two guys on the make for some loot and fun just isn't 'intellectual' enough in today's market, I gather. See also your comments on what happened to Tekumel in the mid-1990s in posts here and elsewhere; you've nailed this one down, Glorious General.

I got good news for you, too; I ain't got none of that in "To Serve The Petal Throne", nor do I got any of that magical doohickey world-saving stuff; it's just a bunch of people out to make some money and have some fun. Which you and managed to do, if I recall correctly...

Which is why, I gather a startling number of Serious Tekumel Fans who I've shared sections of the thing with have hated it - "too light-hearted", "makes Tekumel sound like fun", "tl;dr", "should be more grimdark", " too easy to read", and other complaints too numerous to detail here. It's like the way "John Carter" had to have some Serious Angst loaded into the mix; could have done with out that, but then I also like Frazetta's art - and so do my daughters, which simply shows what a bad parent I am for introducing it to them.

Sigh.

Quote from: Bren;840022For the first couple of months that we played D&D, DMs tended to describe what you saw by title, e.g. "three Swashbucklers" or "four Conjurors" which quickly rise to jokes about the NPCs wearing t-shirts or surcoats with a numeral '5' or the number '3' clearly written on the front. Amazingly descriptions soon changed to the less precise "three men in plate armor" or "four guys in robes."

I guess if we had been on Tekumel we might not have needed to change. Instead we could have just assumed the glyph for five or three were painted on their chlen hide armor or woven into their somewhat utilitarian robes.

Well, if it moves the game along, then I'm all for it. I used to paint such things on figures' shields, so we could tell them apart. Now, I put a colored dot with a unique number on the base, so we can tell everybody apart. And then I do a 3" x 5" index card for the player or non-player that the figures represents.

Do people use index cards, anymore,?

Quote from: Greentongue;840098It is hard enough to give the "feeling of their relative strength" in a setting that is familiar. The example being your Swashbucklers and Conjurers.
How can you do so when everything is alien without obvious clues?

What is wrong with the obvious clues when it is information that characters would know even if the players don't?

At what point in your gaming does "Game" override "Simulation"?
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For me, all the time. My approach is that 'simulation' is a tool for game play; the better I can simulate things, the better the game, but I do all the simulation 'off-stage'; if it gets in the way of the flow of the game play, then I tend to streamline the simulation and number-crunching to make the play flow - and the 'immersion' factor - work more smoothly.

Again, for me this is where things like miniatures, graphics, maps, artwork, and other such game aids really come into play. Ask OG just how many times he's let loose with a heartfelt scream of "YOU BASTARD!" over the years, as he and the rest of the players I've worked for suddenly realize what they are up against...

I give players information that they would know in the world-setting; I don't hold back on this, as I've found that this makes for much better games. See also the game video on my You Tube channel thingy...

Re clothing, etc; there have been several societies, including ancient Sumer and ancient Egypt, where a person's clothing identified them quite precisely; "mid level priest," "low status workman," "royal official with access to the monarch," "wife of important military man," etc.  Phil, knowing this, used it.  There is a difference between "you know this person is a scholar priest of Ksarul of middle status" and "you know this person is a 5th level magic user with 17 hit points blah blah blah."

Quote from: chirine ba kal;840099"makes Tekumel sound like fun",

Good God, Carruthers, we can't have THAT!!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;840103Again, for me this is where things like miniatures, graphics, maps, artwork, and other such game aids really come into play. Ask OG just how many times he's let loose with a heartfelt scream of "YOU BASTARD!" over the years, as he and the rest of the players I've worked for suddenly realize what they are up against...

And I agree with the next paragraph... don't punish players for not knowing what their characters would know easily.  That was another bad trend of Phil falling into the aforementioned Villainous Company, though he did indeed "get better."

Quote from: Old Geezer;840015Nobody seems to write Sword & Sorcery any more.  Lieber's first Fafhrd & Grey Mouser story was originally titled "Two Sought Adventure."  What ever happened to adventurers who adventured for the sake of adventure?

On the other hand, if I never read another "Destroy the Evil Magical Doohickey and Save the World" trilogy again, it will be altogether too soon.

Eh, "adventuring for the sake of adventure" might be out of fashion somewhat. "Adventuring to get ahead socially/for vengeance/to fulfill family obligations", however, seems to be the rage. Especially with my players, which are mostly influenced by the newer fantasy.
That might not be S&S as REH did it, but it sure is in the tradition of swashbuckling and the like. And those genres are close cousins. Not to mention, that's how adventuring would likely look in Tekumel.

Admittedly, some GMs run "adventuring for the sake of adventure" in a way that doesn't help the popularity of the idea...

Quote from: chirine ba kal;840102Do people use index cards, anymore,?

I can confirm many do. They seem especially popular with Fate GMs, because the character sheet of any NPC fits on them:).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;840103I give players information that they would know in the world-setting; I don't hold back on this, as I've found that this makes for much better games. See also the game video on my You Tube channel thingy...

There are still those that treat such info to be metagaming, I've found.
Suffice it to say, it's a point of view that confuses and vexes me;).

Since you mentioned armour, chirine, are there different fighting schools detailed in the setting lore? Are there known differences in regional (or even caste) styles?
Have such distinctions ever been important in your game?
What real world combat arts do Tekumel arts resemble the most:D?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;840103I give players information that they would know in the world-setting; I don't hold back on this, as I've found that this makes for much better games.

Absolutely!

I find this helps immersion and gameplay. Instead of endless Perception, Knowledge or INT rolls, its better to say "your mage has seen costumes like those before in his studies, they are only worn for rituals invoking the moon gods."