Quote from: Greentongue;839033From the description of your later games, of being among the mighty, would the rules for Honor + Intrigue be a good fit?
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Google being my friend, I've now had a look at this set of rules and I think one could certainly use a lot of the system to play in the Tekumel world-setting.

What I find fascinating - and this is not intended to be any sort of negatve response to your very good question! - is that the existence of this kind of rules set is filling a need in the market. Not that I should be surprised - I go all the way back to Mark Pettigrew's "Flashing Blades", for heaven's sake - but back in our day we sort of absorbed this kind of thing by osmosis. we had all seen innumerable swashbuckler movies, over the years, and we all sort of assumed that that was the kind of thing we were doing - right up there with Conan, Brak mac Morn, Fafherd, and the Grey Mouser. Not that we considered ourselves anywhere nearly as good as those seasons professionals, but they were our lodestones.

Like the time we wanted to have a quiet chat amongst ourselves while at the siege of Sunraya, during the NE Frontier campaign, so we PCs had a picnic lunch packed and trotted off to one of the bastions that was still in contention. We had a great time - we played this just like the scene in "Four Musketeers", including OG observing "This wine just does not travel very well!" when the neck of the bottle was shot off by a hostile crossbowman. (Lucky NPC dice roll, there.)

I think it's the time factor; back then, we didn't have the wealth of rules sets available today, so we had to use other models of play...

Fascinating...

Quote from: chirine ba kal;839047And remember when KCTA moved it to the 7:00 p.m. time slot on Thursdays, right before the game sessions, and we'd all dread what phil would see on the telly?

:D:eek:

Quote from: chirine ba kal;839054We had a great time - we played this just like the scene in "Four Musketeers", including OG observing "This wine just does not travel very well!" when the neck of the bottle was shot off by a hostile crossbowman. (Lucky NPC dice roll, there.).

Phil was not afraid to buckle a swash or two.  Remember how delighted he was by the Dino De Laurentis version of "Flash Gordon?"

Quote from: Old Geezer;839057:D:eek:



Phil was not afraid to buckle a swash or two.  Remember how delighted he was by the Dino De Laurentis version of "Flash Gordon?"

Well, yes! He'd grown up with the serials and the comics, and seeing it all in full over-the-top color simply filled him with joy and happiness. And we were off in some damn spaceship right afterwards, too...

I'm just fascinated how the passage of the decades has made a difference in how people play games...

Quote from: Old Geezer;838971In some abstract rules sets, including CHAINMAIL 1:20, troop types deal more with capability than equipment.

E.G.

 "Swiss/Landsknechte attacking in close formation ( 5 x 2 figures minimum) fight as Armored Foot, with extra die for weapons. For every two men so attacking an additional "mass shock" die is added. When defending in close order (1" or less apart), with pole arms facing the enemy, they are treated as Heavy Foot. If attacked in flank or rear, or when in open order, they are treated as Light Foot."

CHAINMAIL 3rd edition P. 40

Thanks for the explanation!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;8390011. Thank you! I think you would have fit right in at Coffman Union, too!

I count that as high praise! Thank you for having such a high opinion of my not humble enough self!

Quote2. Well, it's the 'Evil' part; in the original D&D gameplay in the late 1970's 'Evil' characters were all pretty much cardboard cut-out NPCs and considered fair game for PCs, who were all - almost by definition - The Good Guys. Here I am, playing an Evil High Priest, doing all the nasty stuff reviled in D&D; human sacrifice, hanging out with courtesans, blasting people into oblivion, leading armies of Evil across the land, etc. (The usual things a ranking Priest of Vimuhla does in his day job; I was also an errand boy for the Imperium in my spare time.) This always caused a ruckus at Gen Con, as players' brains just stopped when the subject came  up in conversation - it was one of the things that got Tekumel the reputation that it seems to have.

My wife just had a good laugh at this list of unacceptable behaviours. She's known for considering every single one of them part of the standard operating procedure for her PCs. Me too, come to think of it. And our players are learning!

QuotePhil pointed out in an interview once that all of the religions of the Five Empires are 'evil', in comparison to Western Christianity, especially as is often practiced here in the upper Midwest. Culturally, Tekumel's religions are much closer theologically and ethically to non-Western ones, which should be no surprise given Phil's cultural background. (See also The Great Satanic D&D Scare; I had to live through that.) Tekumel, Phil once said, is Mughal India and not Victorian England - hence the issues that quite a few people had with my PC.

This cultural background isn't exactly unfamiliar to us, either. I grew up on a mix of Bulgarian, Greek, Indian, Chinese, Scandinavian, German, Japanese and Central Asian tales and legends. So have most of my regular players.
Thing is, these things don't shock us, it's just stuff that has happened and still happens.

Quote3. Agreed; my point, exactly.

Glad to hear that. Passing on the next...

Quote4. I didn't make him a god; the locals took one look at the talking fish and got the idea by themselves on what was a spectactular dice roll by Phil for their reactions to this rather unusual happening in the marketplace in the city of Khirgar. It was a wonder, as people said at the time, and an obvious manifestation of the divine. (Rather like the events in "Life of Brian", where things go badly for a Zealot resistance fighter while being chased by the Romans, actually.) There is still a little shrine to The Blue Fish in Khirgar, just of the Street of The Blue Fish which happens to be behind the Gate of The Blue Fish (you can see a pattern, here), where devotees of the Temple of Ksarul go to ask for The Blue Fish's help and ask him to use his influence with the Doomed Prince of the Blue Room. On what, I have no idea; I just make a donation to help with the up-keep of the shrine. They do sell little blue ceramic amulets there, which are supposed to protect one from drowning.

Just one more question. Do the amulets work?

Quote5. Yes; my UK friends have made a cult of garden sheds, as a result.

No garden around, I can bring stuff only to my country house.

Quote6. The Pythons are one of those things we here in the US gaming scene grew up with, like the Tom Baker 'Dr. Who" episodes. (like the Sisterhood of Karn: "Sacred Flame! Sacred Fire!" You can guess who showed up very shortly at the Temple of Vimuhla with their chanting...) They are a handy source of surreal comic relief when the dice call for such...

Well, I get that. I just don't want players mentioning them too often on the table!

Quote from: AsenRG;839072Just one more question. Do the amulets work?

Well Chirine ba Kal hasn't drowned, has he?

That whole fish bit reminds me of Issek of the Jug.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;839054Google being my friend, I've now had a look at this set of rules and I think one could certainly use a lot of the system to play in the Tekumel world-setting.

What I find fascinating - and this is not intended to be any sort of negatve response to your very good question! - is that the existence of this kind of rules set is filling a need in the market. Not that I should be surprised - I go all the way back to Mark Pettigrew's "Flashing Blades", for heaven's sake - but back in our day we sort of absorbed this kind of thing by osmosis. we had all seen innumerable swashbuckler movies, over the years, and we all sort of assumed that that was the kind of thing we were doing - right up there with Conan, Brak mac Morn, Fafherd, and the Grey Mouser. Not that we considered ourselves anywhere nearly as good as those seasons professionals, but they were our lodestones.

Like the time we wanted to have a quiet chat amongst ourselves while at the siege of Sunraya, during the NE Frontier campaign, so we PCs had a picnic lunch packed and trotted off to one of the bastions that was still in contention. We had a great time - we played this just like the scene in "Four Musketeers", including OG observing "This wine just does not travel very well!" when the neck of the bottle was shot off by a hostile crossbowman. (Lucky NPC dice roll, there.)

I think it's the time factor; back then, we didn't have the wealth of rules sets available today, so we had to use other models of play...

Fascinating...

Well, swashbuckling is something that was obviously popular with your generation. It's popular with people my age as well, but not with people several years older.
Today, the place of the swashbuckling and swords and sorcery is mostly taken by urba fantasy, according to my empirical observations.

Quote from: AsenRG;839072I count that as high praise! Thank you for having such a high opinion of my not humble enough self!


My wife just had a good laugh at this list of unacceptable behaviours. She's known for considering every single one of them part of the standard operating procedure for her PCs. Me too, come to think of it. And our players are learning!

This cultural background isn't exactly unfamiliar to us, either. I grew up on a mix of Bulgarian, Greek, Indian, Chinese, Scandinavian, German, Japanese and Central Asian tales and legends. So have most of my regular players.
Thing is, these things don't shock us, it's just stuff that has happened and still happens.


Glad to hear that. Passing on the next...


Just one more question. Do the amulets work?


No garden around, I can bring stuff only to my country house.


Well, I get that. I just don't want players mentioning them too often on the table!

You're welcome!

That's a pretty funny observation by your wife - back in the day, we were considered quite the nasty sorts of people by most gamers. Liked the observation about the broad cultural basis, too; I think that has a lot to do with our gaming, as we learned more and more.

Well, usually they do, but also usually the only way to find out is by taking some pretty bad risks. The 'Amulet of Protection Against the Grey Hand' is a really useful amulet, as the Grey Hand is the only way to get really, positively, absolutely dead on Tekuemel - but the only really certain way to see if the thing works is to have somebody use the spell on you while you're wearing it. Other amulets are less dangerous, but also less useful / powerful.

I can understand your point re the Pythons!

Quote from: Bren;839076Well Chirine ba Kal hasn't drowned, has he?

That whole fish bit reminds me of Issek of the Jug.

Nope; in general, one does not go swimming in open water on Tekumel if one is in one's right mind. One is usually eaten by something with big sharp pointy teeth (which beings Tekumel is quite overstocked with) in very short order. The one time the Amulet of the Blue Fish got used was when Arneson drove the boat into the Southern Continent (he was a great sailor, but a terrible navigator), our ship got wrecked on the rocks, and I had to go into the drink to rescue Kathy. It was awful; Chirine is a terrible swimmer, but the amulet seemed to do the trick and she got rescued.

And yes, you are right! I think that may have been shortly after Phil met Fritz Leiber at one of the very early Gen Cons, one at Horticultural hall.

Quote from: AsenRG;839078Well, swashbuckling is something that was obviously popular with your generation. It's popular with people my age as well, but not with people several years older.
Today, the place of the swashbuckling and swords and sorcery is mostly taken by urba fantasy, according to my empirical observations.

I'd agree with this; shifts in interests and tastes over time, and all that...

I'm still thinking about "Honor and Intrigue", too. It looks like a really handy set of tools for the GM to do a really good job of presenting things that are often hard to present in game terms. Running / playing 'Intrigues' can be difficult; coming up with the plots and factions dies take some time and effort, and I think that some sort of record-keeping to keep track of the plotting and skulduggery is going to be vital.

Thank you for the tip about this - I learned something new today, which is a wonderful thing!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;839097I'd agree with this; shifts in interests and tastes over time, and all that...

My point is that this is more about a shift in trappings. Coming back to my example, I can think of a few examples of urban fantasy that were borrowing the essence of genres like noir and swashbuckling. The trappings of private eyes and musketeers would be less familiar to people raised on these stories, which might well like essentially the same things. Being a hero(ine) that uses guile and violence to live according to his own code (which might not be society's code), however, wouldn't be anything new.
Except one example might be a pirate, while another is a werewolf.
That's how traditions reinvent themselves, IME.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;839098I'm still thinking about "Honor and Intrigue", too. It looks like a really handy set of tools for the GM to do a really good job of presenting things that are often hard to present in game terms. Running / playing 'Intrigues' can be difficult; coming up with the plots and factions dies take some time and effort, and I think that some sort of record-keeping to keep track of the plotting and skulduggery is going to be vital.

Thank you for the tip about this - I learned something new today, which is a wonderful thing!

Yeah, H+I is a wonderful example of a game that would guide you even if you were less familiar with the genre.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;839094You're welcome!

That's a pretty funny observation by your wife - back in the day, we were considered quite the nasty sorts of people by most gamers. Liked the observation about the broad cultural basis, too; I think that has a lot to do with our gaming, as we learned more and more.

Well, usually they do, but also usually the only way to find out is by taking some pretty bad risks. The 'Amulet of Protection Against the Grey Hand' is a really useful amulet, as the Grey Hand is the only way to get really, positively, absolutely dead on Tekuemel - but the only really certain way to see if the thing works is to have somebody use the spell on you while you're wearing it. Other amulets are less dangerous, but also less useful / powerful.

I can understand your point re the Pythons!

Well, there are still those that consider us the nasty kind of players. I just think that more and more people are realising that what you play isn't any kind of reflection of your true self, or of anything else for that matter.

An, the dilemma between testing and suffering the results of a failed test, how well do we know it! All charlatans love it, too, or so I hear.

Quote from: AsenRG;839101My point is that this is more about a shift in trappings. Coming back to my example, I can think of a few examples of urban fantasy that were borrowing the essence of genres like noir and swashbuckling. The trappings of private eyes and musketeers would be less familiar to people raised on these stories, which might well like essentially the same things. Being a hero(ine) that uses guile and violence to live according to his own code (which might not be society's code), however, wouldn't be anything new.
Except one example might be a pirate, while another is a werewolf.
That's how traditions reinvent themselves, IME.


Yeah, H+I is a wonderful example of a game that would guide you even if you were less familiar with the genre.

I think you're right, here; Conan, at least in the original stories, showed many of the same traits as you mention.

Quote from: AsenRG;839102Well, there are still those that consider us the nasty kind of players. I just think that more and more people are realising that what you play isn't any kind of reflection of your true self, or of anything else for that matter.

An, the dilemma between testing and suffering the results of a failed test, how well do we know it! All charlatans love it, too, or so I hear.

Agreed! There's supposed to be am infallible, sure-fire test for Eyes that has been mentioned on the Yahoo Tekumel forum, but I never saw it used at Phil's in his games. I forget how it works in detail, but the essence is that you have a slave hold various objects and try the Eyes out to see what happens. It's a hugely involved and elaborate process that takes all day - and most of the night, too - and I think we just never had any time for it over the years.

I liked your point about charlatans, too; I had a few fake Eyes and amulets offered to me over the years, and most of the time it was pretty obvious that they were fakes. Deal with the reputable merchants, I always said, and never ever assume anything from anybody.

I made some 'prop' Eyes back a while ago, just for fun; I suppose I should get back into the workshop and make some more...