Quote from: chirine ba kal;838777Grilling. It's the only way. Once the Sacred Spices have been applied to purify the sacrifice, of course. A little drawn butter also pleases the Lord of Flame, too.

Lord Vimuhla is very understanding though. If you are stuck on the damn boat with Harchar for six months, all is forgiven.

Lord Vimuhla, master of the Flame, is forgiving:D?
I can associate many qualities with Flame and Change. Charm, Style, Aggressivity, Sexuality, Unfetteredness...but not Forgiveness.
(If that's canonical, either I'd need it explained, or My Tekumel Is Going To Differ. As do all of my settings, anyway).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;838776We're working on it.

I genuinely don't know if my play style is transferable or even teachable. I try as much as I can to explain how and why what I'm doing, which is why I have the blog, the You Tube, and the Photobucket outlets.

As for the lights coming on, yes, I do get that on occasion. This past year's gary Con Tekumel RPG had that, from all of the players. Ask OG; he was there. It was one heck of a game - I had the fight of my life!

You're referring to a kind of Frei Kriegspiel, right?
I'd say it's transferable. You just need to have a Referee that's ready to adopt it and can do the heavy lifting.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;838780Courtrai is one of the exceptions that proves the concept. I specifically put this kind of thing into my rules, along with caltrops, stakes, and other such devices. Very helpful, assuming that you have time to deploy them.

Wait, now, you (and OG) were referring to Courtrai, 1302, right?
Then I don't know how it's relevant, because troops there had pikes, and terrain advantage (all the stuff I was thinking of, except lassos and trenches, in fact). And you said this makes them heavier troops, so it's no longer relevant.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;838781Agreed. Make something up; Phil did it all the time, like when Eyloa the Wizard got turned into a talking blue fish by Lord Fu Hsi. Imagine me having to carry his little piscene grumpiness around in a custom glass bowl for several month's worth of adventures; he looked like those grump beta fish you can find at all pet stores, the ones with the long flowing fins. Since they are air breathers, Elyoa - being a player character - kept trying to cast spells, with predictable results. He also wouldn't shut up, and finally got to be a sort of minor god, The Talking Blue Fish, and had a temple / shrine dedicated to him in Khirgar. There's even a gate with his image in tile.

I had my revenge, though. I had a glass blower make him a little temple for his bowl...

What would be the results of trying to cast in a polymorphed form? Do they depend on gestures so much, or can it be circumvented with sufficient concentration:)?
And I think the glass blower part was to be expected;).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;8387841. I'm a model builder; what can I say? I love props, just like Phil did, and I've been accumulating them for some forty years; I have a basement full of this kind of thing.

Agreed with the rest of your points, too; very trenchant observations!

Yeah, I get the love for props.
I just don't have the physical space to store them. What can I say?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;838786Well, yes, especially during the dry season. We did consider it very unsporting and quite gauche to ask the Temple of Avanthe to conjure up a little thunderstorm right over the Temple of Karakan, just to get their hopes up...

The running joke over at our temple was that you could die of old age, if you were waiting to be sacrificed to Lord Karakan; it seemed to be a pretty cushy job, just lying there on the altar for months and getting fed three times a day and trying not to get bored...

Ok, now I'm totally putting a god in some setting where the temple has waiting lists for people willing to be sacrificed:D!

Quote from: The_Shadow;838789Fantastic thread. Thanks Chirine, Old Geezer, and all those asking questions!

You should ask questions, too;)!

Quote from: AsenRG;838825Lord Vimuhla, master of the Flame, is forgiving:D?
I can associate many qualities with Flame and Change. Charm, Style, Aggressivity, Sexuality, Unfetteredness...but not Forgiveness.
(If that's canonical, either I'd need it explained, or My Tekumel Is Going To Differ. As do all of my settings, anyway).

In my experience, Lord Vimuhla has always been pretty reasonable - but then, I am also one of those people who believes that the gods help those who help themselves. I was always a 'man of my hands', to use the Scots phrase, and lord Vimuhla always seemed to appreciate that; he/she/it tended to be a lot more lenient when it came to formal observances and such.

Basically, I used to roll very, very high for Phil when the question came up.

And I could always be counted on for very high casualties amongst the enemy, when we got into fights, something which always went over very well with the Lord of Flame.

(As an amusing aside, I was once getting some hassle at Gen Con from some D&D guys for being an 'Evil High Priest' under the rules. Gary Gygax, who had been listening to the discussion, pointed out that in his Greyhawk, I would be considered a paladin as I was a faithful follower of my deity and a pillar of my Temple - 'Lawful Evil', if you would - and that kind of stopped them cold.)

Quote from: AsenRG;838825You're referring to a kind of Frei Kriegspiel, right?
I'd say it's transferable. You just need to have a Referee that's ready to adopt it and can do the heavy lifting.

Well, I honestly don't know. The Gary Con game was billed as an RPG, using EPT as the rules, and I ran it like I normally do - and have been doing for the last thirty-some years. The players were astonished, from the looks on their faces; they'd never seen anything like this, I gathered. I had learned these things from the Big Three:

Phil: Know your period, know your material, know your world-setting;
Gary: Know your game, know your mechanics, know how to prepare the battlefield;
Dave: Know your limitations, know your table talk, and know how to pace the game.

From all three: Keep the game moving along at a sharp pace - don't get bogged down in detail or mechanics.

I don't know if that would transfer or not...

Quote from: AsenRG;838825Wait, now, you (and OG) were referring to Courtrai, 1302, right?
Then I don't know how it's relevant, because troops there had pikes, and terrain advantage (all the stuff I was thinking of, except lassos and trenches, in fact). And you said this makes them heavier troops, so it's no longer relevant.

Well, I am speaking from the standpoint of game design. Courtrai is a data point, along with many other period battles, that gives us an idea of how the battle field actually 'worked'. Hastings, Towton, Nicopolis, Acre, Delhi, etc. also provide those data points for establishing what seems to work and what does not. From there, you can build your 'bell curve' for inherent military probabilities - troop training, armor, weapons, morale, supply, terrain, weather, time of day, and other items all add their own factors / modifiers to the situation.

For me, this is a big part of game theory - the number-crunching that goes on 'behind the scenes' to establish what is likely to happen on the battlefield. Sure, there are always going to be rare exceptions - heroic last stands, surprise coups, unexpected delays, and surprise failures. These can all be accounted for in the numbers - at the opposite ends of the bell curve, if you will.

I've noticed, over the years, that I do thing kind of thing more or less instinctively - I suspect OG does it as well, as we both come out of the same cultural background in our gaming. Going back and describing the process is the hard part, I think!

Quote from: AsenRG;838825What would be the results of trying to cast in a polymorphed form? Do they depend on gestures so much, or can it be circumvented with sufficient concentration:)?
And I think the glass blower part was to be expected;).

'Ritual' spells were a disaster; the compromised DEX scores were abysmal. 'Psychic' spells usually went off all right, but as these are the less effective ones in melees having the Blue Fish as a magic-user was simply asking for trouble. And, since Eyloa was a pretty snarky player most of the time, one could not suggest that he should just chill out and watch the world go by from his bowl.

It made life very interesting, until we could get him changed bak. He was still as annoying as ever, but at least he could cast spells.

It was a nice little castle, too. I later added a nice glass fish to his shrine in his temple in Khirgar, too...

Quote from: AsenRG;838825Yeah, I get the love for props.
I just don't have the physical space to store them. What can I say?

Don't feel that you need to apologize! Props are not vital for games; they are just another tool for the GM, like miniatures.

I'm lucky that I have the space, and a very understanding spouse; we've also been in this same house for the past 25 years, and that stability also heps as well.

Quote from: AsenRG;838825Ok, now I'm totally putting a god in some setting where the temple has waiting lists for people willing to be sacrificed:D!


You should ask questions, too;)!

Monty Python's "Life of Brian". There's a waiting list.

And yes, feel free to ask questions!!!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;838863In my experience, Lord Vimuhla has always been pretty reasonable - but then, I am also one of those people who believes that the gods help those who help themselves. I was always a 'man of my hands', to use the Scots phrase, and lord Vimuhla always seemed to appreciate that; he/she/it tended to be a lot more lenient when it came to formal observances and such.

And I could always be counted on for very high casualties amongst the enemy, when we got into fights, something which always went over very well with the Lord of Flame.

You would have done very well in my games, I suspect:D! Well, at least I can tell that attitude reminds of some of my more successful players.

Quote(As an amusing aside, I was once getting some hassle at Gen Con from some D&D guys for being an 'Evil High Priest' under the rules. Gary Gygax, who had been listening to the discussion, pointed out that in his Greyhawk, I would be considered a paladin as I was a faithful follower of my deity and a pillar of my Temple - 'Lawful Evil', if you would - and that kind of stopped them cold.)

I get Gygax's logic, though I don't necessarily agree on the alignment point.
Still, what's actually unclear here is, why did those guys hassle you for being an "Evil High Priest"?
I mean, that describes pretty well at least one of my characters in historical games (inspired by Aramis, I must admit).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;838866Well, I honestly don't know. The Gary Con game was billed as an RPG, using EPT as the rules, and I ran it like I normally do - and have been doing for the last thirty-some years. The players were astonished, from the looks on their faces; they'd never seen anything like this, I gathered. I had learned these things from the Big Three:

Phil: Know your period, know your material, know your world-setting;
Gary: Know your game, know your mechanics, know how to prepare the battlefield;
Dave: Know your limitations, know your table talk, and know how to pace the game.

From all three: Keep the game moving along at a sharp pace - don't get bogged down in detail or mechanics.

I don't know if that would transfer or not...

I've always called someone that can do that "a good GM". Sure, you get better with experience in running games, but experience helps in everything!
(Knowing how to pace the game and preparing the battlefield are the things I have most issues with, personally).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;838867Well, I am speaking from the standpoint of game design. Courtrai is a data point, along with many other period battles, that gives us an idea of how the battle field actually 'worked'. Hastings, Towton, Nicopolis, Acre, Delhi, etc. also provide those data points for establishing what seems to work and what does not. From there, you can build your 'bell curve' for inherent military probabilities - troop training, armor, weapons, morale, supply, terrain, weather, time of day, and other items all add their own factors / modifiers to the situation.

For me, this is a big part of game theory - the number-crunching that goes on 'behind the scenes' to establish what is likely to happen on the battlefield. Sure, there are always going to be rare exceptions - heroic last stands, surprise coups, unexpected delays, and surprise failures. These can all be accounted for in the numbers - at the opposite ends of the bell curve, if you will.

I've noticed, over the years, that I do thing kind of thing more or less instinctively - I suspect OG does it as well, as we both come out of the same cultural background in our gaming. Going back and describing the process is the hard part, I think!

Ahem, I've always followed more or less the same approach - collect data points, analyze probabilities, translate into mechanics. Except I was using it for GMing purposes.
After all, if I need to make a ruling for a game, it better be a good ruling:)!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;838870'Ritual' spells were a disaster; the compromised DEX scores were abysmal. 'Psychic' spells usually went off all right, but as these are the less effective ones in melees having the Blue Fish as a magic-user was simply asking for trouble. And, since Eyloa was a pretty snarky player most of the time, one could not suggest that he should just chill out and watch the world go by from his bowl.

It made life very interesting, until we could get him changed bak. He was still as annoying as ever, but at least he could cast spells.

It was a nice little castle, too. I later added a nice glass fish to his shrine in his temple in Khirgar, too...

OK, maybe you should tell us that story. How did you manage to make him a god;)?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;838873Don't feel that you need to apologize! Props are not vital for games; they are just another tool for the GM, like miniatures.

I'm lucky that I have the space, and a very understanding spouse; we've also been in this same house for the past 25 years, and that stability also heps as well.

Well, we don't even live on the same continent. As a general rule, houses tend to be smaller here, from what I can tell.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;838874Monty Python's "Life of Brian". There's a waiting list.

I admit to my deliberate, almost complete ignorance of Monty Python.
Then again, it really helps my GMing, which is why I'm taking care to maintain it:p! See, if I don't recognize an OOC pun, I can't get distracted by it and tend to just assume it's a not really successful attempt at a joke.
Some months of this treatment, and people just stop making Monthy Python references - which, from what I hear, is something of an achievement:D!

Quote from: AsenRG;838825Wait, now, you (and OG) were referring to Courtrai, 1302, right?
Then I don't know how it's relevant, because troops there had pikes, and terrain advantage (all the stuff I was thinking of, except lassos and trenches, in fact). And you said this makes them heavier troops, so it's no longer relevant.

In some abstract rules sets, including CHAINMAIL 1:20, troop types deal more with capability than equipment.

E.G.

 "Swiss/Landsknechte attacking in close formation ( 5 x 2 figures minimum) fight as Armored Foot, with extra die for weapons. For every two men so attacking an additional "mass shock" die is added. When defending in close order (1" or less apart), with pole arms facing the enemy, they are treated as Heavy Foot. If attacked in flank or rear, or when in open order, they are treated as Light Foot."

CHAINMAIL 3rd edition P. 40

Quote from: AsenRG;838906You would have done very well in my games, I suspect:D! Well, at least I can tell that attitude reminds of some of my more successful players.


I get Gygax's logic, though I don't necessarily agree on the alignment point.
Still, what's actually unclear here is, why did those guys hassle you for being an "Evil High Priest"?
I mean, that describes pretty well at least one of my characters in historical games (inspired by Aramis, I must admit).


I've always called someone that can do that "a good GM". Sure, you get better with experience in running games, but experience helps in everything!
(Knowing how to pace the game and preparing the battlefield are the things I have most issues with, personally).


Ahem, I've always followed more or less the same approach - collect data points, analyze probabilities, translate into mechanics. Except I was using it for GMing purposes.
After all, if I need to make a ruling for a game, it better be a good ruling:)!


OK, maybe you should tell us that story. How did you manage to make him a god;)?


Well, we don't even live on the same continent. As a general rule, houses tend to be smaller here, from what I can tell.


I admit to my deliberate, almost complete ignorance of Monty Python.
Then again, it really helps my GMing, which is why I'm taking care to maintain it:p! See, if I don't recognize an OOC pun, I can't get distracted by it and tend to just assume it's a not really successful attempt at a joke.
Some months of this treatment, and people just stop making Monthy Python references - which, from what I hear, is something of an achievement:D!

1. Thank you! I think you would have fit right in at Coffman Union, too!

2. Well, it's the 'Evil' part; in the original D&D gameplay in the late 1970's 'Evil' characters were all pretty much cardboard cut-out NPCs and considered fair game for PCs, who were all - almost by definition - The Good Guys. Here I am, playing an Evil High Priest, doing all the nasty stuff reviled in D&D; human sacrifice, hanging out with courtesans, blasting people into oblivion, leading armies of Evil across the land, etc. (The usual things a ranking Priest of Vimuhla does in his day job; I was also an errand boy for the Imperium in my spare time.) This always caused a ruckus at Gen Con, as players' brains just stopped when the subject came  up in conversation - it was one of the things that got Tekumel the reputation that it seems to have.

Phil pointed out in an interview once that all of the religions of the Five Empires are 'evil', in comparison to Western Christianity, especially as is often practiced here in the upper Midwest. Culturally, Tekumel's religions are much closer theologically and ethically to non-Western ones, which should be no surprise given Phil's cultural background. (See also The Great Satanic D&D Scare; I had to live through that.) Tekumel, Phil once said, is Mughal India and not Victorian England - hence the issues that quite a few people had with my PC.

3. Agreed; my point, exactly.

4. I didn't make him a god; the locals took one look at the talking fish and got the idea by themselves on what was a spectactular dice roll by Phil for their reactions to this rather unusual happening in the marketplace in the city of Khirgar. It was a wonder, as people said at the time, and an obvious manifestation of the divine. (Rather like the events in "Life of Brian", where things go badly for a Zealot resistance fighter while being chased by the Romans, actually.) There is still a little shrine to The Blue Fish in Khirgar, just of the Street of The Blue Fish which happens to be behind the Gate of The Blue Fish (you can see a pattern, here), where devotees of the Temple of Ksarul go to ask for The Blue Fish's help and ask him to use his influence with the Doomed Prince of the Blue Room. On what, I have no idea; I just make a donation to help with the up-keep of the shrine. They do sell little blue ceramic amulets there, which are supposed to protect one from drowning.

5. Yes; my UK friends have made a cult of garden sheds, as a result.

6. The Pythons are one of those things we here in the US gaming scene grew up with, like the Tom Baker 'Dr. Who" episodes. (like the Sisterhood of Karn: "Sacred Flame! Sacred Fire!" You can guess who showed up very shortly at the Temple of Vimuhla with their chanting...) They are a handy source of surreal comic relief when the dice call for such...

Quote from: Old Geezer;838971In some abstract rules sets, including CHAINMAIL 1:20, troop types deal more with capability than equipment.

E.G.

 "Swiss/Landsknechte attacking in close formation ( 5 x 2 figures minimum) fight as Armored Foot, with extra die for weapons. For every two men so attacking an additional "mass shock" die is added. When defending in close order (1" or less apart), with pole arms facing the enemy, they are treated as Heavy Foot. If attacked in flank or rear, or when in open order, they are treated as Light Foot."

CHAINMAIL 3rd edition P. 40

And there you go!

Did you ever start as a "barbarian in a boat at the docks of Jakalla"?

When you run games, do you ever start players that way?

What has given you the most favorable response from new players?
(New to Tekumel and/or new to your gaming style.)

From the description of your later games, of being among the mighty, would the rules for Honor + Intrigue be a good fit?
=

Quote from: chirine ba kal;8390016. The Pythons are one of those things we here in the US gaming scene grew up with, like the Tom Baker 'Dr. Who" episodes. (like the Sisterhood of Karn: "Sacred Flame! Sacred Fire!" You can guess who showed up very shortly at the Temple of Vimuhla with their chanting...) They are a handy source of surreal comic relief when the dice call for such...

 Ah, yes, "The Brain of Morbius."

Phil was an avid Dr. Who fan, back when it was on at 11:30 PM on Public TV.  I remember us all clustering around the little TV in the kitchen.

Quote from: Greentongue;839033Did you ever start as a "barbarian in a boat at the docks of Jakalla"?

When you run games, do you ever start players that way?

What has given you the most favorable response from new players?
(New to Tekumel and/or new to your gaming style.)

From the description of your later games, of being among the mighty, would the rules for Honor + Intrigue be a good fit?
=

No. When I started playing, the original group had been going for about two years, and had gone up to about third to sixth level (more or less; Phil didn't worry about 'level', very much.) So, Phil rolled a four-sider and told me that I should be a third-level PC, in order to be able to play on the same terms as the rest of the group. I was the last PC rolled up in his campaign in EPT:

STR: 86 INT: 98 CON: 97 PSY: 00 DEX: 89 COM: 12

Phil took a look at the dice rolls, and told me that if I wasn't going to be a magic user he'd smack me up the side of the head. He meant it, too. So, I was 'born', and we were off and running.

Again, no, unless the players very specifically request that I do so. The vast majority of people I get to play with want to get into the world setting as quickly as possible, and this approach can take a while.

What I do, and what has worked very, very well over the past 15 years that I've been running the current group, Is to do the same as Phil did - have the players roll for PCs between first and third level, in whatever set of rules they like. (I should note that I have PCs rolled up in EPT, S&G, "Gardaisiyal", and T:EPT; I do the number crunching 'off-stage' - pay no attention to the computer behind the curtains...)

I then give the players some light 'backstory'; they are the 'country cousins', sent by their clans to their relatives in 'The Big City' to get an education and some finishing, as well as do some networking and influence-peddling. This allows for the players not knowing much about the world-setting, and then being able to let them learn about it in very short order; I always allow them to read the background materials, which is why I have so many bookshelves in the game room, and this also allows for the players knowing more then maybe they really should.

This has seemed to work out very well, over the years, and I am told by the players that they like this approach. I have had players ask about playing non-humans, and I'll do this if they can demonstrate some 'acting ability'; I've had very good Tinaliya and Pe Choi, for example. Players get to go off on 'adventures', have a good time, and learn about the world all in one campaign, and it's seemed to worked for both me and them.

I've never read the set of rules that you mention. Where can I find a copy, please?

Quote from: Old Geezer;839044  Ah, yes, "The Brain of Morbius."

Phil was an avid Dr. Who fan, back when it was on at 11:30 PM on Public TV.  I remember us all clustering around the little TV in the kitchen.

And remember when KCTA moved it to the 7:00 p.m. time slot on Thursdays, right before the game sessions, and we'd all dread what phil would see on the telly?