Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;966253Hi all,

On page 25, the Sourcebook says:

"(...) the Mu'ugalavyani, whom [the Tinalya] despise as being too officious and insistent upon their formal bureaucratic
procedures".

The Tinalya being so literal-minded, I find it a bit bizarre that they would dislike the Mu'ugalavyani for being formal and zealous about their bureaucratic procedures. If anything, the Gnomes would like them for that.

Any other reason why they might dislike the Mu'ugs?

What perturbs the Tinaliya is that it's all done by hand, and so very wasteful of time and effort that the Tinaliya feel could be put to better uses. The little folk have made all sorts of suggestions over the centuries to the humans as to how the Tinaliya could make the systems more efficient - they are just brimming with solutions for problems that haven't come up yet - and the Red Hats won't let them try anything out.

Think of the little folk as engineering grads trying to deal with the college administration over the new cyclotron. You get a lot of understanding of Phil's Tekumel from relating it to his time in academia. (Try to order a box of pencils. I dare you!)

Running joke from our time as students:

Student, entering college clinic with bleeding wounds, pathetically: "Help! Help!"
Administrator, at clinic front desk, severely: "Do you have your paid fee statement?"

It makes the Tinaliya point of view a lot more understandable.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;966275Student, entering college clinic with bleeding wounds, pathetically: "Help! Help!"
Administrator, at clinic front desk, severely: "Do you have your paid fee statement?"

Yikes.  Too true to be funny.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;966271The kids would love it. It's their parents who would have the fits at their innocent little ones being exposed to such bad things. The kids get into the spirit of the game in no time flat - watching kids with Arneson was always a hoot, 'cause he thought like they did - but I've run into a number of Concerned Parents Who Are Socially Aware and want their offspring to be just like them. (I am lucky; I have a clutch of very - and I do mean very! - individualistic kids who aren't afraid to tell me to stuff it.)

Ah, I see.  I'll bear that in mind.  I think the very cartoony John Kovalic art might help.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;966326Yikes.  Too true to be funny.

Yep. As you've pointed out in other contexts, getting the paperwork done properly has become the be all and end product of even the smallest organizations - any organization with more then one person in it drowns in a sea of forms and files, and even then the single person organization has to spend an immense amount of time filling out paperwork required for the entities that one has to deal with. Immense amounts of time is spent in meetings, so that all of the people and departments can have a say in a decision - and have it on file that they were not responsible for the results.

I've been looking for a copy of The Iron Law of Bureaucracy cartoon collection for a while.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;966274Think of the little folk as engineering grads trying to deal with the college administration over the new cyclotron. You get a lot of understanding of Phil's Tekumel from relating it to his time in academia. (Try to order a box of pencils. I dare you!)

That's the best advice I've read on how one should bring the Tinalyas to life! Very understandable indeed ... and hilarious!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;966349Immense amounts of time is spent in meetings, so that all of the people and departments can have a say in a decision - and have it on file that they were not responsible for the results.

When real world experiences reveal how Tsolyani bureaucracy functions!

And that's "the surface", so to speak. The "deeper stuff" relates to the mentality of the people who work in such structures: what sort of person works in such an environment? Are they there because there was nothing better, or because they're zealous about all that form filling stuff? And how about the ones who hate it and who actively try to undermine their own work or the work of their colleagues to bring the whole structure/bureaucracy down, "to make them pay", or "see the light"? Etc.

Lots of possibilities to explore here and have fun with ... at the expense of the player characters, of course!

Where does Stability / Change (Good / Evil) fit into this as the Emperor changes?
=

Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;966435When real world experiences reveal how Tsolyani bureaucracy functions!

And that's "the surface", so to speak. The "deeper stuff" relates to the mentality of the people who work in such structures: what sort of person works in such an environment? Are they there because there was nothing better, or because they're zealous about all that form filling stuff? And how about the ones who hate it and who actively try to undermine their own work or the work of their colleagues to bring the whole structure/bureaucracy down, "to make them pay", or "see the light"? Etc.

Lots of possibilities to explore here and have fun with ... at the expense of the player characters, of course!

Ah, "surface" and "deeper stuff!"  Like this example from War and Peace which C.S. Lewis quotes in his essay, "The Inner Ring".

When Boris entered the room, Prince Andrey was listening to an old general, wearing his decorations, who was reporting something to Prince Andrey, with an expression of soldierly servility on his purple face. "Alright. Please wait!" he said to the general, speaking in Russian with the French accent which he used when he spoke with contempt. The moment he noticed Boris he stopped listening to the general who trotted imploringly after him and begged to be heard, while Prince Andrey turned to Boris with a cheerful smile and a nod of the head. Boris now clearly understood—what he had already guessed—that side by side with the system of discipline and subordination which were laid down in the Army Regulations, there existed a different and more real system—the system which compelled a tightly laced general with a purple face to wait respectfully for his turn while a mere captain like Prince Andrey chatted with a mere second lieutenant like Boris. Boris decided at once that he would be guided not by the official system but by this other unwritten system.

Remember this, as well, in Tekumel.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;966345Ah, I see.  I'll bear that in mind.  I think the very cartoony John Kovalic art might help.

Agreed. We live in a very different world then you and I inhabited. Hence no miniatures in two weeks, which is something I shall regret.

Quote from: Neshm hiKumala;966435That's the best advice I've read on how one should bring the Tinalyas to life! Very understandable indeed ... and hilarious!



When real world experiences reveal how Tsolyani bureaucracy functions!

And that's "the surface", so to speak. The "deeper stuff" relates to the mentality of the people who work in such structures: what sort of person works in such an environment? Are they there because there was nothing better, or because they're zealous about all that form filling stuff? And how about the ones who hate it and who actively try to undermine their own work or the work of their colleagues to bring the whole structure/bureaucracy down, "to make them pay", or "see the light"? Etc.

Lots of possibilities to explore here and have fun with ... at the expense of the player characters, of course!

You're welcome! Enlightenment impends, and mayhem will ensue...

Quote from: Greentongue;966494Where does Stability / Change (Good / Evil) fit into this as the Emperor changes?
=

About as much as the Republicans and Democrats - or Tories and Labour, if you will - matter to the vast body of the governments involved. The names at the top may often change, but the inertia of the corporate body limits the actual influence of the 'new' people and their beliefs. (I suggest the British series "Yes, Minister!" for an in-depth look at this.)

In Tsolyanu, about all the new incumbent on the Petal Throne can really have a direct effect on is what goes on in Avanthar itself. The Seal Imperium decrees 'Jump!", and the names at the top of the of the organizational pyramid respectfully ask "How high?" Beyond that, actually getting the whole structure of Imperium-Temples-Clans-Legions to actually change direction or philosophy is probably impossible in the long term. Which is how the corporate Imperium thinks; this or that person may be ruler, but there will be another one along in a generation. Speaking as somebody who is an avowed Imperialist in Tsolyani politics, yes, there will be Change - but it will happen long after we're all passed to the Isles.

Was that your question? Did I get it wrong?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;966548Was that your question? Did I get it wrong?

I was thinking there might be more energetic purges and/or restoring to glory as the politic winds blew in the other direction.

How long had you been playing before this sort of thing even became noticeable?
Would it effect the average player character?
=

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;966519Ah, "surface" and "deeper stuff!"  Like this example from War and Peace which C.S. Lewis quotes in his essay, "The Inner Ring".

When Boris entered the room, Prince Andrey was listening to an old general, wearing his decorations, who was reporting something to Prince Andrey, with an expression of soldierly servility on his purple face. "Alright. Please wait!" he said to the general, speaking in Russian with the French accent which he used when he spoke with contempt. The moment he noticed Boris he stopped listening to the general who trotted imploringly after him and begged to be heard, while Prince Andrey turned to Boris with a cheerful smile and a nod of the head. Boris now clearly understood—what he had already guessed—that side by side with the system of discipline and subordination which were laid down in the Army Regulations, there existed a different and more real system—the system which compelled a tightly laced general with a purple face to wait respectfully for his turn while a mere captain like Prince Andrey chatted with a mere second lieutenant like Boris. Boris decided at once that he would be guided not by the official system but by this other unwritten system.

Remember this, as well, in Tekumel.

This is so good and funny. Thanks for sharing. Very on point.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;966548About as much as the Republicans and Democrats - or Tories and Labour, if you will - matter to the vast body of the governments involved. The names at the top may often change, but the inertia of the corporate body limits the actual influence of the 'new' people and their beliefs. (I suggest the British series "Yes, Minister!" for an in-depth look at this.)

In Tsolyanu, about all the new incumbent on the Petal Throne can really have a direct effect on is what goes on in Avanthar itself. The Seal Imperium decrees 'Jump!", and the names at the top of the of the organizational pyramid respectfully ask "How high?" Beyond that, actually getting the whole structure of Imperium-Temples-Clans-Legions to actually change direction or philosophy is probably impossible in the long term. Which is how the corporate Imperium thinks; this or that person may be ruler, but there will be another one along in a generation. Speaking as somebody who is an avowed Imperialist in Tsolyani politics, yes, there will be Change - but it will happen long after we're all passed to the Isles.

But, surely, that's only true in stable periods, no? I'm thinking of the Tsolyani civil war here which unleashed quite a bit of chaos all around the country for a little while. Living dead legionnaires invaded the Golden Tower at one point. At least one heir to the throne was dispatched to the Isles, etc. Those events can't be good for any bureaucracy, even one as large and old and set-in-its-ways as the Tsolyani one, no?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;966519Ah, "surface" and "deeper stuff!"  Like this example from War and Peace which C.S. Lewis quotes in his essay, "The Inner Ring".

When Boris entered the room, Prince Andrey was listening to an old general, wearing his decorations, who was reporting something to Prince Andrey, with an expression of soldierly servility on his purple face. "Alright. Please wait!" he said to the general, speaking in Russian with the French accent which he used when he spoke with contempt. The moment he noticed Boris he stopped listening to the general who trotted imploringly after him and begged to be heard, while Prince Andrey turned to Boris with a cheerful smile and a nod of the head. Boris now clearly understood—what he had already guessed—that side by side with the system of discipline and subordination which were laid down in the Army Regulations, there existed a different and more real system—the system which compelled a tightly laced general with a purple face to wait respectfully for his turn while a mere captain like Prince Andrey chatted with a mere second lieutenant like Boris. Boris decided at once that he would be guided not by the official system but by this other unwritten system.

Remember this, as well, in Tekumel.

Interesting. Any examples of this during your campagins that stand out (between The Glorious General and Lord Chirine)? I think Uncle mentions something similar in TSTPT...

H:0)