Quote from: Zirunel;963015cool, I like his work too. The "Temple of Dlamelish" issue is great, both pictures and text. Although I wish the images had reproduced better

That was done from a copy; I have the originals, and they are much sharper and clearer. That was the Imperial Courier we never published, and which Carl finally did up.

makes sense. Still, it would be great to really drill down on the dates and figure out how Tekumel evolved from what Barker the pulps fan imagined in the 40s into what Barker the newly-returned Fullbright scholar imagined in the mid 50s.

Do you have a sense that Tekumel was put on the shelf somewhat from the mid 50s through to the birth of "game" Tekumel in the 70s, or did he tinker with it fairly actively all that time?

I have the re-issue, but I can imagine the originals are far better, even on the copy you can sense the originals were pretty great

Quote from: Zirunel;963018makes sense. Still, it would be great to really drill down on the dates and figure out how Tekumel evolved from what Barker the pulps fan imagined in the 40s into what Barker the newly-returned Fullbright scholar imagined in the mid 50s.

Do you have a sense that Tekumel was put on the shelf somewhat from the mid 50s through to the birth of "game" Tekumel in the 70s, or did he tinker with it fairly actively all that time?

Agreed! One of my personal pet projects has been to research as much of Phil's life s I can, and we made copies of all the biographical information that he'd saved from his career. Fascinating stuff; he went straight from his two-year degree - that he got in eighteen months - to a doctorate, skipping the usual Master's degree.

Yes, very much so, and from Phil himself. He was quite upfront that he'd left his 'fannish pursuits' along from the middle 1950's, once his academic career took off. He dusted it all off when he got to the Twin Cities, and fell in with reprobates like Gronan and Dave Arneson. From what he'd said, he didn't do much of anything with it at all, in the years that came between. He'd kept the files - and lost some, like the draft novel - and prety much just dipped into that when Gary came knocking.

Quote from: Zirunel;963019I have the re-issue, but I can imagine the originals are far better, even on the copy you can sense the originals were pretty great

They had to be; all our publishing was done by Xerox machine, so we had to have the best possible originals.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;963179he went straight from his two-year degree - that he got in eighteen months - to a doctorate, skipping the usual Master's degree.

I didn't realize that, very interesting. Specializing that rapidly into linguistics would explain why his broader background in anthropology and archaeology seems more, what....limited...or dated...than you'd expect........ I always assumed he went through the full academic cursus, but I guess not.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;963179Yes, very much so, and from Phil himself. He was quite upfront that he'd left his 'fannish pursuits' along from the middle 1950's, once his academic career took off. He dusted it all off when he got to the Twin Cities, and fell in with reprobates like Gronan and Dave Arneson. From what he'd said, he didn't do much of anything with it at all, in the years that came between. He'd kept the files - and lost some, like the draft novel - and prety much just dipped into that when Gary came knocking.

So in a sense, Tekumel didn't "evolve" so much as it exploded in two separate growth spurts 20 years apart?

I've got a question. Someone recently posted an old adventure written for EPT called Mysteries of the Crimson Chamber. In it, the author describes technology of the ancients and will often say that if the device in question were to be dismantled, something like an Eye of (fill in the blank) could be recovered. I wondered if this is something that happened in your games with the Professor, or could be reasonably extrapolated from events you witnessed. What is the true nature of Eyes? I believe they are mentioned as unusual equipment available in the Humanspace Empires playtest document, as well... Thanks! (Oh, and apologies if this has already been discussed, I'm still hundreds of pages behind in my reading!)

I do remember that in Flamesong there was at least one being worked on in the underwater lab.
(If I recall correctly. Been a few years since I read it.)
=

Quote from: Baron;963196I've got a question. Someone recently posted an old adventure written for EPT called Mysteries of the Crimson Chamber. In it, the author describes technology of the ancients and will often say that if the device in question were to be dismantled, something like an Eye of (fill in the blank) could be recovered. I wondered if this is something that happened in your games with the Professor, or could be reasonably extrapolated from events you witnessed. What is the true nature of Eyes? I believe they are mentioned as unusual equipment available in the Humanspace Empires playtest document, as well... Thanks! (Oh, and apologies if this has already been discussed, I'm still hundreds of pages behind in my reading!)

That would be interesting(maybe for one from the temple of Ksarul,etc)...but the parts would be hard to come by or manufacture(in my Tekumel).

I think the "eye" works kind of like a lens. It pulls extra-planar energy and depending on its circuitry/parts determines the result.

Uncle I am sure will shed light on the subject.

H:0)

Quote from: Greentongue;963318I do remember that in Flamesong there was at least one being worked on in the underwater lab.
(If I recall correctly. Been a few years since I read it.)
=

I seem to remember that too.

H:0)

Quote from: chirine ba kal;963013I looked that reference up, having only seen a copy of the game on the shelf in the FLGS, but I'd say that you are right. I do wish other people would read it, as they might realize just what I really am.

I knew it:)!

QuoteYes; I always think in strategic terms, as all too many opponents in all sorts of games have learned. I think in long-term goals and objectives, not in short-term tactical ones. And it's always been a great help to me that quite a few of my opponents over the decades have been so predictable, and can be counted on to not to think but to 'shot from the hip'. It makes them so much easier to manipulate, especially as so many of them don't stop and think what my goals and objectives might be, or what might be their - and my - optimal outcomes.

I can only nod and grin, Uncle:D!

QuoteI will freely admit that this does annoy some people, when I decline combat at that point in time; I can remember one huge "Chainmail" game that Gronan ran where I opened the battle by retreating, at which my opponents called me a coward and other, nastier, things. They pressed their attack, and then discovered that I had conducted a fighting withdrawal into a superb defensive position, and being gamers quite willingly stuffed their larger army into my troops' meat grinder. They had 10-1 odds on me, and lost 10 to 1 casualties. I laughed a lot over that one...

Was there terrain that you used, Uncle? Or did you just retreat firing to void their first attacks and then presented them with a refused center allowing you to concentrate your attacks on them?

QuoteI happen to prefer offensive defensive battles, if I can use that phrase, as it never seem to occur to people - aside from Gronan, who knows better! -  that I might find it very much to my advantage to allow myself to be attacked...

Of course you may find it so. Don't these people at least watch boxing, fer anything's sake?

QuoteAgincourt. Crecy. Poitiers. Waterloo. Gettysburg. Sedan. Omdurman. To name a few. I am that most dangerous of all foes, a historian with a good memory - the the wit to use it...

I think Hastings also should be there;).

Quote from: Zirunel;963193I didn't realize that, very interesting. Specializing that rapidly into linguistics would explain why his broader background in anthropology and archaeology seems more, what....limited...or dated...than you'd expect........ I always assumed he went through the full academic cursus, but I guess not.

So in a sense, Tekumel didn't "evolve" so much as it exploded in two separate growth spurts 20 years apart?

Agreed; while he made and kept a lot of friends in Meso-American and Egyptian studies, his academic 'time in grade' was very much of a certain time in those fields. He wasn't at all academically active in them, as near as I can tell, after he went over to serious language work. I did't find out about his academic career in much detail until I was going through the files; he just never mentioned it in conversations.

Yes, I very much think so; he seemed to work best and be most creative when surrounded by a good audience. He had that at in the early 1950s - the other players in the 'proto-campaign' went on to very distinguished academic careers in languages themselves - and again in the late '70s into the middle '80s. He seemed to need a certain interactive dynamic, that flourished in specific times  and places, with a certain  collection of individuals.

I do think his Tekumel evolved in some ways, but it was a matter of detail rather then broad conception. I could run a very recognizable RPG campaign with just the 1950s material, and I strongly doubt anyone except a trivia buff would ever know the difference.

Quote from: Baron;963196I've got a question. Someone recently posted an old adventure written for EPT called Mysteries of the Crimson Chamber. In it, the author describes technology of the ancients and will often say that if the device in question were to be dismantled, something like an Eye of (fill in the blank) could be recovered. I wondered if this is something that happened in your games with the Professor, or could be reasonably extrapolated from events you witnessed. What is the true nature of Eyes? I believe they are mentioned as unusual equipment available in the Humanspace Empires playtest document, as well... Thanks! (Oh, and apologies if this has already been discussed, I'm still hundreds of pages behind in my reading!)

Yep; have it in the files. We didn't see this in Phil's games, because we learned very early on not to try to dismantle devices of the Ancients; it never seemed to go well, and people got tired of being blown up. On the other hand, a number of the Undying Wizards have been known to do this, and things still work right afterwards. It should be remembered that Phil was simply not into technology; he didn't have a really good idea of how things like light switches worked - all he cared about was that if he flipped the switch, the light came on. If it didn't, you called in a wizard or sorcerer to deal with the problem.

The text in the adventure is, I think, a very reasonable extrapolation of how the technology of the Ancients might work; it makes sense from an engineering standpoint, and it's also a useful plot device for use in games. Eyes are, Phil once said, the Humanspace version of cordless power tools; they do useful things, but only if one is willing to make the investment in the technology in order to have a forklift or something in your belt pouch. (Phil was speaking in the early 1980s, when these kinds of tools were rare and expensive, by the way.) So, taking something apart and finding a module that did X makes sense, and is certain to get players in deep trouble - which was also one of Phil's delights; see also the number of times we had to stitch Origo back together.

How they work is sort of known in general outline; they draw power and create effects. That's as far as Phil went, because it was all he needed to keep things moving along.

(We had talked about this a bit, but not in any real detail. Do ask, please!!!)

Quote from: Greentongue;963318I do remember that in Flamesong there was at least one being worked on in the underwater lab.
(If I recall correctly. Been a few years since I read it.)
=

Yep; full of 'filaments', as I recall.

Quote from: Hrugga;963323That would be interesting(maybe for one from the temple of Ksarul,etc)...but the parts would be hard to come by or manufacture(in my Tekumel).

I think the "eye" works kind of like a lens. It pulls extra-planar energy and depending on its circuitry/parts determines the result.

Uncle I am sure will shed light on the subject.

H:0)

Parts? Oh, that's a reason to have adventures all by themselves. Mayhem will result!