Quote from: David Johansen;962288Alternative Armies still has a very similar torture chamber set in production.  I think that side of things will always be there.  There will always be a market for it.

Agreed. Not my style of gaming; I lean more to the pulps, like Phil did. Oddly enough, I've never seen anything like these items show up in actual gaming...

Quote from: altfritz;962292People use rules "as written"?!  ;-)

What! No! Really? I've been doing it wrong, all these years...

Quote from: Zirunel;962299It would seem to take a pretty low threshold of offense to make the Amarna style offensive. Compare that to precolumbian Moche ceramics from the north coast of Peru, some of which, in the Museo Larco in Lima, are in a separate "adults-only" gallery, or even some of the Attic redware from Greece which can be....well, "frank."

But speaking of Frank, is Frazetta really considered offensive nowadays?

I've had it happen. Seen the ceramics, too. The people who've complained to me about the Amarna girls would have had their heads explode.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;962301Fortunately, I will be in town!

And I'm more touched by the offer of funding than I can say.

Remember the time we foiled Victor's invasion of some planet with nothing more than a telephone system?

Wonderful!

Folks, if you want to see RPGs played in the old style, as done here in the Twin Cities in the late 1970s, this will be your chance.

Lunch, dinner, and refreshments are on me.

Yes. He turned the most lovely shade of beet-red. We laughed until we cried.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;962302By somebody somewhere, undoubtedly.

"I have a right to an opinion" has come to mean "you must listen."  The US as a society has lost the notion that an absurd opinion should be ignored or laughed to scorn.

Yep. Frank is a sexist misogynist, according to the socially aware, and should not have his artwork in view anywhere. Stay away from places like Wis Con, my General.

Quote from: Zirunel;962305Do I detect an amusing story here?

Activate the Laugh-O-Tron!!! There is; we think it's pretty funny, and Dr. Raymond most certainly does not. You wanna tell it, my General, or shall I?

Quote from: Zirunel;962299It would seem to take a pretty low threshold of offense to make the Amarna style offensive. Compare that to precolumbian Moche ceramics from the north coast of Peru, some of which, in the Museo Larco in Lima, are in a separate "adults-only" gallery, or even some of the Attic redware from Greece which can be....well, "frank."

But speaking of Frank, is Frazetta really considered offensive nowadays?

He is - that was the tipping point when I decided to only support "offensive products".

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;962302By somebody somewhere, undoubtedly.

"I have a right to an opinion" has come to mean "you must listen."  The US as a society has lost the notion that an absurd opinion should be ignored or laughed to scorn.

Indeed, I'm afraid;).

Quote from: chirine ba kal;962311I've had it happen. Seen the ceramics, too. The people who've complained to me about the Amarna girls would have had their heads explode.

All the more reason to show it to them, if you ask me:D!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;962316Activate the Laugh-O-Tron!!! There is; we think it's pretty funny, and Dr. Raymond most certainly does not. You wanna tell it, my General, or shall I?

Well, it was your campaign, and I strongly suspect you remember the setup better than I do, so please, be my guest.

Quote from: AsenRG;962318He is - that was the tipping point when I decided to only support "offensive products".

Oh dear. Well I would hesitate to endorse an artist simply because they were deemed "offensive." I have no interest in that. But damn. He was the Michelangelo of genre painting. You can think what you like about the Church and other patrons that commissioned Michelangelo. You can think what you like about the genre publishers that commissioned Frazetta. But in both cases the artists delivered more and better than their patrons ever required. And much more than their peers. Power, sensuality, atmosphere. I like to think, and I hope I'm not wrong, that Frazetta's work, like Michelangelo's, will withstand momentary moral finger-waving and will withstand the test of time.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;962332Well, it was your campaign, and I strongly suspect you remember the setup better than I do, so please, be my guest.

Well, all right, then. Fasten your seat belts, folks; no smoking until after we get to cruising altitude, please.

So it's sometime in late '79, as I recall, and young Mr. Raymond (as he was then) has started showing up at Coffman for CSA meetings; he's a ok player, but he's got this kind of smarmy attitude that he's a better gamer then all of the rest of us are. Why, I don't know, but his just being out of high school may have something to do with it. We, on the other hand, were all grizzled veterans of multiple campaigns with guys like Dave and Gary, and we're also all suave and debonair college men just brimming with the knowledge we're being stuffed with. (We were even on a first-name basis with real, live female humans!!!) I had mentioned that I was interested in running a space campaign, using Gronan's "Planetfall" rules, and our young man announced that he was going to run a space campaign, using the "Traveller" three-black-book set. I signed on, and rolled up a nice little planetary government. Nothing special, but nice and tidy.

First night of gaming in the campaign, he rolls in with a vast space armada of hugely tech-superior warships, and I get a space radiophone call to "Instantly Surrender Or Die!!!", which sounded just a little too much like the fourteen-year-old who'd managed to kill Dave Arneson in a game at a recent Gen Con and bragged about it the rest of the weekend; different person, same attitude of "I'ma gonna git you old guys!" Okay, cool, a little too obvious, but I'll play along 'cause I'm a nice guy. (Sometimes. Ask Gronan.)

So, being a guy interested in astronomy, I check for the local planetary time, and it's the middle of the night. The space invaders are getting insistant, so I answer the space phone, hear their demands and - put them on hold. It's very obvious from the GM's attitude at the table that he's out for a TPK on a planetary scale, so I have literally nothing to lose by teaching him a thing or two about campaign balance and in how to run a campaign.

I then give them the bureaucratic run-around so familiar to anyone who's tried to talk to anyone in any government, shunting him from department to department. He's getting more and more red in the face, as he's caught on to my catching on to his gambit, and I'm not giving him an inch. Gronan, who happens to be sitting at the same table, is watching this all go down with mounting hilarity, and other regular players are pausing their games to drift over and watch the fun - Chirine is on a roll, and Victor is even breaking a sweat as he tries to assert his dominance at the table. I am in control of the table as I often am - as previous opponents will testify - and just as I sense he's at his limit I ratchet up the game by forwarding the call to Gronan, who leaps into the fun with both feet as he's wont to do when handed a golden opportunity for some laughs. This opportunity was being delivered on a platter, and off we went, playing all the night shift people you find in any large organization, and giving the invaders the massive run-around. We really got him going, and a good half-hour of hilarity was had by the both of us and the delighted spectators, as he'd been getting on everybody's nerves with his smarmy attitude towards everyone else in the club.

Finally, when he was literally beet-red and pouring sweat, I unlimbered my penultimate weapon. I passed him to the night shift janitor in the Ministry of Celestial Affairs, and he finally and utterly lost it. He used a planet-buster on my little home world, and that was that. His stentorian announcement of this was greeted with gales of laughter by everyone, and he could not figure out why everyone was laughing their heads off. Finally, one of the spectators, the level-headed Mr. Thornley (who had figured out what we'd been up to in the first thirty seconds) calmed down enough to ask Mr. Smarmy what the objective of the invading fleet was. "Why, to invade and occupy the planet, of course!" was the reply, followed by "That's going to be a little difficult, considering that you just blew it up." We laughed even harder; we'd made lemons out of lemonade - there was no hope of doing anything but balking the invaders, so we goaded him into the only option we had left.

Mr. Smarmy Know-It-All had never heard of Masada. We had. Sometimes it is better to nail your colors to the mast and go down fighting. So, we did, and with all the usual style and panache we could bring to bear.

Thank you for your patience; you may now unfasten your safety belts; the no smoking lamp is now off. Enjoy your flight with Chirine and Gronan's Flying Carpet Airways!

Quote from: Zirunel;962335Oh dear. Well I would hesitate to endorse an artist simply because they were deemed "offensive." I have no interest in that. But damn. He was the Michelangelo of genre painting. You can think what you like about the Church and other patrons that commissioned Michelangelo. You can think what you like about the genre publishers that commissioned Frazetta. But in both cases the artists delivered more and better than their patrons ever required. And much more than their peers. Power, sensuality, atmosphere. I like to think, and I hope I'm not wrong, that Frazetta's work, like Michelangelo's, will withstand momentary moral finger-waving and will withstand the test of time.

I'd agree with you on all this - they put diapers on the Sistine Chapel, and then later took them off again, so I think there's hope for the future.

Frazetta defined a generation, and how that generation looked at fantasy and imagination. Had a girlfriend, back in those days, who really liked his work as she felt that it - to use a modern term - "empowered" her; he brought to life the powerful and commanding women like Belit for her, and made her feel comfortable with herself ad a person and as a fan of F/SF literature and work. And that, I think, is something he'd be happy with and proud of.

Quote from: Zirunel;962335Oh dear. Well I would hesitate to endorse an artist simply because they were deemed "offensive."

I never said "because". There's a large number of RPGs I like, though, and when I make my decisions which ones to support and which ones to save from, that's likely to be an important criterion.

QuoteBut damn. He was the Michelangelo of genre painting. You can think what you like about the Church and other patrons that commissioned Michelangelo. You can think what you like about the genre publishers that commissioned Frazetta. But in both cases the artists delivered more and better than their patrons ever required. And much more than their peers. Power, sensuality, atmosphere. I like to think, and I hope I'm not wrong, that Frazetta's work, like Michelangelo's, will withstand momentary moral finger-waving and will withstand the test of time.

And here, we're of the same opinion.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;962337I'd agree with you on all this - they put diapers on the Sistine Chapel, and then later took them off again, so I think there's hope for the future.

Frazetta defined a generation, and how that generation looked at fantasy and imagination. Had a girlfriend, back in those days, who really liked his work as she felt that it - to use a modern term - "empowered" her; he brought to life the powerful and commanding women like Belit for her, and made her feel comfortable with herself ad a person and as a fan of F/SF literature and work. And that, I think, is something he'd be happy with and proud of.

Yes, that's how I see things, as well.

On the other hand, the artwork of Exalted 3, which seems to be deemed very progressive (or at least "making a honest effort"), resulted in our GM starting to reconsider buying any books of the new edition. As she puts it, playing ugly people, like the suggested signature characters, doesn't feel empowering to her, which Exalted is supposed to be:D!

Exhalted is supposed to be empowering? Do RPGs do that nowadays?

Quote from: altfritz;962381Exhalted is supposed to be empowering? Do RPGs do that nowadays?

As much as Frasetta artwork, at least:).
Or it might be an issue with my translation, I guess. In Bulgarian, it' harder to distinguish between "empowering" and "high-power", and Exalted definitely should be the latter!

Quote from: chirine ba kal;962336Well, all right, then. Fasten your seat belts, folks; no smoking until after we get to cruising altitude, please.

So it's sometime in late '79, as I recall, and young Mr. Raymond (as he was then) has started showing up at Coffman for CSA meetings; he's a ok player, but he's got this kind of smarmy attitude that he's a better gamer then all of the rest of us are. Why, I don't know, but his just being out of high school may have something to do with it. We, on the other hand, were all grizzled veterans of multiple campaigns with guys like Dave and Gary, and we're also all suave and debonair college men just brimming with the knowledge we're being stuffed with. (We were even on a first-name basis with real, live female humans!!!) I had mentioned that I was interested in running a space campaign, using Gronan's "Planetfall" rules, and our young man announced that he was going to run a space campaign, using the "Traveller" three-black-book set. I signed on, and rolled up a nice little planetary government. Nothing special, but nice and tidy.

First night of gaming in the campaign, he rolls in with a vast space armada of hugely tech-superior warships, and I get a space radiophone call to "Instantly Surrender Or Die!!!", which sounded just a little too much like the fourteen-year-old who'd managed to kill Dave Arneson in a game at a recent Gen Con and bragged about it the rest of the weekend; different person, same attitude of "I'ma gonna git you old guys!" Okay, cool, a little too obvious, but I'll play along 'cause I'm a nice guy. (Sometimes. Ask Gronan.)

So, being a guy interested in astronomy, I check for the local planetary time, and it's the middle of the night. The space invaders are getting insistant, so I answer the space phone, hear their demands and - put them on hold. It's very obvious from the GM's attitude at the table that he's out for a TPK on a planetary scale, so I have literally nothing to lose by teaching him a thing or two about campaign balance and in how to run a campaign.

I then give them the bureaucratic run-around so familiar to anyone who's tried to talk to anyone in any government, shunting him from department to department. He's getting more and more red in the face, as he's caught on to my catching on to his gambit, and I'm not giving him an inch. Gronan, who happens to be sitting at the same table, is watching this all go down with mounting hilarity, and other regular players are pausing their games to drift over and watch the fun - Chirine is on a roll, and Victor is even breaking a sweat as he tries to assert his dominance at the table. I am in control of the table as I often am - as previous opponents will testify - and just as I sense he's at his limit I ratchet up the game by forwarding the call to Gronan, who leaps into the fun with both feet as he's wont to do when handed a golden opportunity for some laughs. This opportunity was being delivered on a platter, and off we went, playing all the night shift people you find in any large organization, and giving the invaders the massive run-around. We really got him going, and a good half-hour of hilarity was had by the both of us and the delighted spectators, as he'd been getting on everybody's nerves with his smarmy attitude towards everyone else in the club.

Finally, when he was literally beet-red and pouring sweat, I unlimbered my penultimate weapon. I passed him to the night shift janitor in the Ministry of Celestial Affairs, and he finally and utterly lost it. He used a planet-buster on my little home world, and that was that. His stentorian announcement of this was greeted with gales of laughter by everyone, and he could not figure out why everyone was laughing their heads off. Finally, one of the spectators, the level-headed Mr. Thornley (who had figured out what we'd been up to in the first thirty seconds) calmed down enough to ask Mr. Smarmy what the objective of the invading fleet was. "Why, to invade and occupy the planet, of course!" was the reply, followed by "That's going to be a little difficult, considering that you just blew it up." We laughed even harder; we'd made lemons out of lemonade - there was no hope of doing anything but balking the invaders, so we goaded him into the only option we had left.

Mr. Smarmy Know-It-All had never heard of Masada. We had. Sometimes it is better to nail your colors to the mast and go down fighting. So, we did, and with all the usual style and panache we could bring to bear.

Thank you for your patience; you may now unfasten your safety belts; the no smoking lamp is now off. Enjoy your flight with Chirine and Gronan's Flying Carpet Airways!

Ha! Great story, thanks