Quote from: AsenRG;1039204Well, Lord Shemek, there are two kinds of people. The first are interested in the past and taking lessons from it, and then there's the rest of them:D!

Asen, my friend. Well put. I agree whole heartedly!

Shemek

Quote from: AsenRG;1039204What I mean is, don't tactics work just the same in this kind of games, regardless of "correct" or "incorrect" figures?

It's a forum, of course I can wait;).

No, not really; consciously or not, the rules are written such that certain armies or certain troops are so much better that they are unbeatable.  Warhammer does it by simply boosting stats.  If ordinary figures do 1-2 points of damage and your superfigure has 10 points of damage absorption per hit, the enemy simply can't destroy it.  Sort of like a Superhero vs ordinary men in CHAINMAIL, except the enemy doesn't have any fantastic figures.

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;1039200Glorious General,

This is exactly what many players have forgotten or don't know: "playing the period, not the rules." I don't know how many times over the years I have won not by decimating an opponent's army, but by achieving my objective. As I used to say when I actively wargamed: "Read the fucking scenario! Understand what the purpose is!" Unless it stated that victory was determined by the number of enemy troops destroyed, I didn't waste time needlessly tieing up resources to destroy units that I didn't have to bother with otherwise. I don't think I would have lasted long, or been welcome for long at the Little Tin. For me a great victory was securing the objective, with minimal casualties. Kind of like in the real world, ne c'est pas?

Shemek.

I had that happen at GenCon running "Battle on the Ice."  I had one of THOSE players... the kind who never shuts up about how great a wargamer he is, how he is an expert in every historical period, etc, etc.... you know the type.

At one point I heard him say "We've destroyed three of their units and they've only destroyed two of ours, so we're winning."

At which time I broke my own rule about not commenting as referee, and said "You need to reread your victory conditions."

Later on, after killing Andrei Nevsky, the same clown said, "We win!  We killed the leader."
I said, "No, your objective is to kill or capture Prince Alexander Nevsky.  That was his brother Andrei."
"Oh, I thought they were the same guy."

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1039215I had that happen at GenCon running "Battle on the Ice."  I had one of THOSE players... the kind who never shuts up about how great a wargamer he is, how he is an expert in every historical period, etc, etc.... you know the type.

At one point I heard him say "We've destroyed three of their units and they've only destroyed two of ours, so we're winning."

At which time I broke my own rule about not commenting as referee, and said "You need to reread your victory conditions."

Later on, after killing Andrei Nevsky, the same clown said, "We win!  We killed the leader."
I said, "No, your objective is to kill or capture Prince Alexander Nevsky.  That was his brother Andrei."
"Oh, I thought they were the same guy."

All I can say is dumb ass. I derive great pleasure in thumping these kinds of players. In fact, I'll go out of my way to teach them a lesson if I can. Job, 41:8.(KJV)

I have found over the years that the more someone praises their own ability, the less competent they in fact are.

Shemek

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;1039225All I can say is dumb ass. I derive great pleasure in thumping these kinds of players. In fact, I'll go out of my way to teach them a lesson if I can. Job, 41:8.(KJV)

Well, yes, but Matthew 5:45.

More like Hebrews 13:8, KJV.

I've been putting up with these assclowns for almost half a century.

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;1039209Asen, my friend. Well put. I agree whole heartedly!

Shemek

Thank you, Lord Shemek:)!

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1039214No, not really; consciously or not, the rules are written such that certain armies or certain troops are so much better that they are unbeatable.  Warhammer does it by simply boosting stats.  If ordinary figures do 1-2 points of damage and your superfigure has 10 points of damage absorption per hit, the enemy simply can't destroy it.  Sort of like a Superhero vs ordinary men in CHAINMAIL, except the enemy doesn't have any fantastic figures.

I forgot how Warhammer worked, but doesn't the damage taken in the same round combine? If it doesn't, I agree (and that game sucks:p).

That would be like the approach in D&D 3.5 vs Classic Traveller. In D&D 3.5 you can create a character who just cannot be killed, and one-shots most opposition (known as "winning the game in chargen"). In Classic Traveller you aim to not get killed, and one-shot the opposition, but that depends on using tactics that fit the situation;).

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;1039225All I can say is dumb ass. I derive great pleasure in thumping these kinds of players. In fact, I'll go out of my way to teach them a lesson if I can. Job, 41:8.(KJV)

I have found over the years that the more someone praises their own ability, the less competent they in fact are.

Shemek

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1039231Well, yes, but Matthew 5:45.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1039234More like Hebrews 13:8, KJV.

I've been putting up with these assclowns for almost half a century.

Sorry, guys, but I like Lord Shemek's option best:D!
Putting bigmouths down never gets old to me. Though admittedly, I've seldom done so in wargames. But it has happened in all kinds of games, RPG included.
When you play a spy, it helps to re-read Sun Tzu's 13th chapter daily;)!

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1039214No, not really; consciously or not, the rules are written such that certain armies or certain troops are so much better that they are unbeatable.  Warhammer does it by simply boosting stats.  If ordinary figures do 1-2 points of damage and your superfigure has 10 points of damage absorption per hit, the enemy simply can't destroy it.  Sort of like a Superhero vs ordinary men in CHAINMAIL, except the enemy doesn't have any fantastic figures.

Running into better armies or troops doesn't bother me if it fits. I've done many a Great Northern War battle and, not surprising, the Swedes are beasts. If you can't swamp them with numbers or prevent them from getting organized, they will steamroller you. Or in Tekumel when your Legion ran up against various desert tribes. Some troops or armies are just crummy. That is why victory conditions exist (or rather used to exist, since so many games don't have them anymore). Get as many of your Russians from the field without the Swedes killing or capturing them. Loot as much of the Tsolyani baggage as you can and get away before they cream you. Most modern gamers won't play a game where they are "going to lose no matter what" because they don't understand the very idea of victory conditions. We used to play Games Workshop's Bloodbowl (comical American Football using fantasy races) a lot and I think we all enjoyed it when a goblin or halfling team scored more than just about anything. Not won, just scored. We understood they were terrible and the "victory condition" for them was doing anything positive.  

 I know people think of campaigns as something that you do in rpgs and not in wargames but if more people played them they would get a better appreciate for "war" instead of the "game." You burned all your best troops to "win" the last battle and now your army is spent? Sorry, maybe you should read up on the concept of a Pyrrhic Victory.

And the whole, this is the new minis we are trying to sell so they are more powerful than the old ones, although a brilliant business model, sucks from a wargame perspective. And I really loathe all the named characters and units, especially with the collectible card style mechanics that are so pervasive now. Instead of your fleet of xwings (or space marines or whatever), you have the Special Edition xwing that gains special ability A when near a Super Special Edition xwing, which is doubled by the Commander's Type xwing being on the board, so now it does 487,391 points of damage per shot this turn only!

I know Chirine has Mar in his book (excerpt is awesome for those who haven't read that section!) but do you have a battle report of it (I know you do!), with some maps or what not? And after you turned the center into lasagna, what did the Prof do?

And I would like to point out, you mentioned that he wanted a good scene for Flamesong but he played it out. No railroad, no pre-ordained result. Those are complaints you here all too often in the hobby, the DM has story/ending in mind and will allow no deviation from it.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1039234More like Hebrews 13:8, KJV.

I've been putting up with these assclowns for almost half a century.

I saw what you did there.

Shemek.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;1039068I've been thinking about this all day, and had one of those 'illuminating' moments. You were role-playing your character, the Glorious General, and thinking like a Tsolyani soldier would have in the same situation. Yes, it was for all intents and purposes a 'wargame', but you were looking at the table through Korunme's eyes. Phil wasn't, I think; I think he was looking at it through a WRG 6th player's eyes. Back in the day, he and the other 'serious gamers' who played Ancients at the Little Tin were all about 'winning the battle', usually through the largest amounts of miniature mayhem that could be devised. Remember the passion for bloody frontal assaults that those guys loved? Casualties were seen as a sign of manhood, in that it showed everybody that you and your miniature army were real manly men.

You, on the other hand, (and maybe me at Anch'ke, later on) didn't think in those terms; we used tactics to gain our objectives. We role-played...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2497[/ATTACH]

From a very old issue of Dragon Magazine, which seems to sum it up quite nicely.


Shemek.

Quote from: Big Andy;1039285I know Chirine has Mar in his book (excerpt is awesome for those who haven't read that section!) but do you have a battle report of it (I know you do!), with some maps or what not? And after you turned the center into lasagna, what did the Prof do?

Actually it was the Yan Koryani left, because Mar was to our right.

I adapted the classic Blitzkrieg, except instead of trying to exploit the enemy's rear (hurr hurr) after we blew a hole through their line, we legged it towards Mar.

Quote from: AsenRG;1039139If anyone chews you anything (that you mind being chewed) for what happens in those games, Uncle, just tell them to go to the Temple of Dlamelish and perform all the rites:)!

Do you mean that there are two kinds of wargames, Glorious General? Serious question - I returned to wargaming less than a year ago (thanks to the regulars of this thread, a book on wargaming you recommended, and Two-Hour Wargames), and my previous foray was even shallower.

Good advice, but I simply don't game with people like that any more, nor do I go to events where they can be found.

Yes. There is a huge difference between games like Chainmail and Warhammer. the one tries to be a simulation, the other is a marketing tool.

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;1039193Well, in all fairness, they are "newish players" who are probably spoiled by excessive exposure to video game RPG's. In all honesty, I think they forgot or did not appreciate the fact that they were on horseback, against attackers a foot, who also happen to be bullying and cowardly at heart. Had they ploughed into the the little snots I would have done a morale check (with a penalty) and they probably would have scattered without a fight. It goes back to what has been said on this thread before. People just don't read these days, especially the type of books that we have read. I had already read Caesar's Bellum Gallicum and Vegetius' De re militari while in High School, and once I hit university all of the great tactical treatises were "consumed" in due course, as well as dozens of histories on the Crusades, Alexander's campaigns, the Seven Years War, and the World Wars.  Besides, how many great movies have been made over the years showing what cavalry can do to undisciplined/untrained infantry?  
The good thing is that I seriously doubt that they will make the same mistake again.

I'm not sure how much more obvious I could have been: "You guys are on horses riding north."

I think the root of the problem is their strategic/tactical  thinking, or in this case, the lack of it. Sucks for the players, but is a whole lot of fun for the DM.

Shemek.

P.S. I feel old too.

Agreed. I'm doing some posts on my blog about this, and getting pretty depressed.

Quote from: Big Andy;1039285Running into better armies or troops doesn't bother me if it fits. I've done many a Great Northern War battle and, not surprising, the Swedes are beasts. If you can't swamp them with numbers or prevent them from getting organized, they will steamroller you. Or in Tekumel when your Legion ran up against various desert tribes. Some troops or armies are just crummy. That is why victory conditions exist (or rather used to exist, since so many games don't have them anymore). Get as many of your Russians from the field without the Swedes killing or capturing them. Loot as much of the Tsolyani baggage as you can and get away before they cream you. Most modern gamers won't play a game where they are "going to lose no matter what" because they don't understand the very idea of victory conditions. We used to play Games Workshop's Bloodbowl (comical American Football using fantasy races) a lot and I think we all enjoyed it when a goblin or halfling team scored more than just about anything. Not won, just scored. We understood they were terrible and the "victory condition" for them was doing anything positive.  

 I know people think of campaigns as something that you do in rpgs and not in wargames but if more people played them they would get a better appreciate for "war" instead of the "game." You burned all your best troops to "win" the last battle and now your army is spent? Sorry, maybe you should read up on the concept of a Pyrrhic Victory.

And the whole, this is the new minis we are trying to sell so they are more powerful than the old ones, although a brilliant business model, sucks from a wargame perspective. And I really loathe all the named characters and units, especially with the collectible card style mechanics that are so pervasive now. Instead of your fleet of xwings (or space marines or whatever), you have the Special Edition xwing that gains special ability A when near a Super Special Edition xwing, which is doubled by the Commander's Type xwing being on the board, so now it does 487,391 points of damage per shot this turn only!

I know Chirine has Mar in his book (excerpt is awesome for those who haven't read that section!) but do you have a battle report of it (I know you do!), with some maps or what not? And after you turned the center into lasagna, what did the Prof do?

And I would like to point out, you mentioned that he wanted a good scene for Flamesong but he played it out. No railroad, no pre-ordained result. Those are complaints you here all too often in the hobby, the DM has story/ending in mind and will allow no deviation from it.

Agreed with all your points, which is why I don;t do much gaming any more, and not likely to in the future. I'm trying very hard not to be depressed about what I fell about the current state of gaming, and my being made to feel very 'unwelcome' by people I know and used to enjoy having as friends.

Thank you for your kind words about my writing efforts. I do have an after-action report written at he time, as well as Phil's map, and I'm using those to reconstruct the battle in my text. Gronan is also helping with this, for which I am very grateful!

He kind of sat there and looked at the wreckage, and didn't say much.

Yes! He was quite honest about it, and wrote about it honestly in "Flamesong". Which I thought showed a lot of guts on his part.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1039326Actually it was the Yan Koryani left, because Mar was to our right.

I adapted the classic Blitzkrieg, except instead of trying to exploit the enemy's rear (hurr hurr) after we blew a hole through their line, we legged it towards Mar.

As fast as we damn well could, too.