Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;960070Clans were very important almost from day 1.  By 1976, for certain.  It was especially bad for those of us who started as southern barbarians once Mirusiya's "New Men," who were all native citizens, came along.  Korunme, who at the time was Kasi Hlych'ptu, was openly mocked and scorned in front of his superior officers by other PCs for being clanless.  What made it far worse is that I was insulted personally out of game as well.

Agreed. We saw that as well, which is why we spilt the groups. See also Fine's "Shared Fantasy".

Still won't go anywhere near them, even after all these years.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;960109Agreed. We saw that as well, which is why we spilt the groups. See also Fine's "Shared Fantasy".

Still won't go anywhere near them, even after all these years.

Thanks Chirine. I read Fine's book back when it came out (in a university library, I don't own a copy). So many years ago, I don't remember the details, and even if I did remember I didn't have the context. When you say "we saw that as well," are you talking about the same experience with the same group of players, or did you also have experiences that were similar in nature but different in the personalities to what Gronan mentioned?

Quote from: Dumarest;960100Cool, I did not know the creator wrote novels set there. I once saw a copy of the game, a boxed set if I remember right, on the lower shelf at a shop that dealt in comic books and roleplaying games back in the very early 1980s, but I had no idea what "Empire of the Petal Throne" was and I think I assumed it was a D&D setting or something. Needless to say, I didn't get it as I have never been much of a D&D player anyway, but now I see 600+ pages  related to it on this forum so naturally I'm curious what all the hubbub is about.

There's a huge body of work that was done in and about the world-setting, over the years. I am supposedly the 'greatest living authority' on the setting, and people seem to like asking me questions.

And the writing still goes on; I'm 127,000 words into an account of our adventures over the decade plus we had with Phil. If I may offer a small sample, from the Preface to Book One of "To Serve The Petal Throne":

Since before the beginnings of recorded time, humankind had looked up into the night sky at the myriad points of light and wondered. Eventually, in the fullness of that time, the first steps were taken out into that starry night. Humankind went, in a single bound, from being alone on their homeworld to being part of a galaxy-spanning community of beings of diverse shapes and sizes. Some were friendly, some were hostile, and some plainly disinterested in the doings of humans and neutral to them.

Humankind spread across the stars, and established their own empire; the Lords of Humanspace assimilated many technologies and sciences, and eventually became masters of matter and energy. This mastery brought them in to alliances and conflicts, and in one particular case brought them a contract with another of the galaxy's races; they wanted to have an entire planet adapted for their use, and this the Lords of Humanspace could do.

One of five worlds orbiting a bright, hot star, the chosen planet was at the juncture of several important trade routes between the more densely-populated areas of space; the world was wanted as a trading center and a place where the rulers of the galaxy could rest from their labors.

It was of little matter that the world was already inhabited; the Lords of Humanspace did not consider such minor things as being worthy of their notice. Mighty weapons were deployed, even mightier engines of change and transformation were brought into play, and the new world became a place where humankind and their allies could call home. The inhabitants were allowed to survive; to survive, and nurse their hatred of the alien beings who had transformed their planet and confined them to the more remote regions of it.

The Lords of Humanspace, and their allies, for all their power and mastery were not the most highly endowed races in the universe. Others, older and more alien yet, held that position, and they too had their rivalries and conflicts. To these older races, the all-powerful Lords of Humanspace were as toys to a child.

 There came a time when these older races had a mighty conflict, and employed powers unimaginable to Humankind. The newly-transformed world was cast out of space and time, and the trapped peoples of the new world looked up into a sky without stars.

The high civilization that the Lords of Humanspace had brought to the new world collapsed - here, suddenly; there, slowly. Humankind is, however, nothing if not adaptable and resilient; civilization began a long, slow climb back into the light and out of the utter darkness that had befallen it. New technologies of the mind, which became known as 'sorcery', replaced the lost technology of the Ancients – as the Lords of Humanspace had become known – and empires and kingdoms rose and fell as the centuries passed into dust.

Humans and their alien allies built and strove, and created new civilizations out of the ashes of the old. Heroes and villians abounded, and new legends were born out of the tales of their battles and quests. In every generation, new heroes and heroines were born, and their legends added to the mythology and history of their world. Gods and goddesses, some based on the memories of the old races that has cast the world into darkness and some created by the mnds of their worshippers, abounded and made their presence in the world known to their worshippers and their competitors.

Some traces of the old technology survived, and became highly sought-after and coveted treasures. Some of what was left of the old world was beneficial and useful; other devices could kill at a touch. All of the inhabitants of the world understood this, and the quest for these wonders was left to a new breed of 'adventurers', who took the most horrific risks in order to obtain the most generous of rewards.

And so it begins; tales of wonder, and of people not yet born, and of lands not yet known...
Come with us; our journey is just begun...

Quote from: Zirunel;960112Thanks Chirine. I read Fine's book back when it came out (in a university library, I don't own a copy). So many years ago, I don't remember the details, and even if I did remember I didn't have the context. When you say "we saw that as well," are you talking about the same experience with the same group of players, or did you also have experiences that were similar in nature but different in the personalities to what Gronan mentioned?

Yes; Fine was a player in Phil's campaign right as we split up. I and the other founders of the Thursday Night Group had had a lot of abuse from and conflict with the original group of players, who were very much into power gaming and player vs. player conflict. It made them very unpleasant people to game with, and - to be frank - several of them were just as obnoxious outside of Phil's basement. Same people, same issues, which is why Gronan came over to our new group pretty shortly. It got worse after our group became the center of writing, artwork, and publishing; they fought every step of the way, and this attitude continued for years. There was no point to it, from an outside standpoint; it was all about internal gamer / fannish politics. I wasted a lot of time, money, energy, and years of my life trying to counteract their 'elitist' viewpoint, and I don't think we ever really managed it.

Pity. Phil's creation deserved better, in my biased opinion.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;960114Yes; Fine was a player in Phil's campaign right as we split up. I and the other founders of the Thursday Night Group had had a lot of abuse and conflict with the original group of players, who were very much into power gaming and player vs. player conflict. It made them very unpleasant people to game with, and - to be frank - several of them were just as obnoxious outside of Phil's basement. Same people, same issues, which is why Gronan came over to our new group pretty shortly. It got worse after our group became the center of writing, artwork, and publishing; they fought every step of the way, and this attitude continued for years. There was no point to it, from an outside standpoint; it was all about internal gamer / fannish politics. I wasted a lot of time, money, energy, and years of my life trying to counteract their 'elitist' viewpoint, and I don't think we ever really managed it.

Pity. Phil's creation deserved better, in my biased opinion.

Perhaps I should re-read Fine's book. Now after all these years, I might even be able to recognize individual players in the Professor's group.

My feeling at the time was that the writer was a sociologist trying to be an anthropologist but not quite well-trained enough for the task. He didn't seem to  "get" the participant observer role or get enough out of it. But if he was already a player/insider, perhaps he was too close to his subjects from the get-go. Which would explain a lot.

This is not the first time I've heard you talk about the power-gamer/non-power-gamer conflict in the group. Were there other examples?

Quote from: Zirunel;960117Perhaps I should re-read Fine's book. Now after all these years, I might even be able to recognize individual players in the Professor's group.

My feeling at the time was that the writer was a sociologist trying to be an anthropologist but not quite well-trained enough for the task. He didn't seem to  "get" the participant observer role or get enough out of it. But if he was already a player/insider, perhaps he was too close to his subjects from the get-go. Which would explain a lot.

This is not the first time I've heard you talk about the power-gamer/non-power-gamer conflict in the group. Were there other examples?

A number of people said them same thing, at the time.

Good points!

That was the big one that caused the split. Another factor was emphasis on what we wanted to do; we wanted to explore the world, and they didn't want to all that much. We accepted the rules and world-setting as it was; they, like quite a few gamers back then, were really interested in breaking the thing just to see what happened. We were into cooperative play, they were not. Stuff like that. We were much more interested in fitting into the societies of Phil's world, too, and being responsible members of those societies. It just got old, and so we split off from them. Things got much better very quickly, and we stayed. Otherwise, we would have all quit, with fascinating results for the future for Tekumel.

Quote from: chirine ba kal;960124A number of people said them same thing, at the time.

Good points!

That was the big one that caused the split. Another factor was emphasis on what we wanted to do; we wanted to explore the world, and they didn't want to all that much. We accepted the rules and world-setting as it was; they, like quite a few gamers back then, were really interested in breaking the thing just to see what happened. We were into cooperative play, they were not. Stuff like that. We were much more interested in fitting into the societies of Phil's world, too, and being responsible members of those societies. It just got old, and so we split off from them. Things got much better very quickly, and we stayed. Otherwise, we would have all quit, with fascinating results for the future for Tekumel.

Well, the results might have been fascinating , or possibly not. Seeing as how one track seems to have led to a bunch of Tekumel publications, and the other track....perhaps not so much. I have to admit I am kind of guessing there, I am not certain what publications came out of the power-gamer track. Possibly some?

But regardless, it sounds like in that instance, the Professor resolved the problem of new-gamers vs. the old-timers, not by hounding out the old group but by splitting the groups. So more-or-less everyone found a place?

Quote from: chirine ba kal;960124Otherwise, we would have all quit, with fascinating results for the future for Tekumel.

Is the current Tekumel Foundation a mixture of these two groups, mainly one of them or later arrivals?


Is there a shortage of loose coin, what with most transactions being done with credit and it being basically a low metal world?
=

Quote from: chirine ba kal;960113There's a huge body of work that was done in and about the world-setting, over the years. I am supposedly the 'greatest living authority' on the setting, and people seem to like asking me questions.

And the writing still goes on; I'm 127,000 words into an account of our adventures over the decade plus we had with Phil. If I may offer a small sample, from the Preface to Book One of "To Serve The Petal Throne":

Since before the beginnings of recorded time, humankind had looked up into the night sky at the myriad points of light and wondered. Eventually, in the fullness of that time, the first steps were taken out into that starry night. Humankind went, in a single bound, from being alone on their homeworld to being part of a galaxy-spanning community of beings of diverse shapes and sizes. Some were friendly, some were hostile, and some plainly disinterested in the doings of humans and neutral to them.

Humankind spread across the stars, and established their own empire; the Lords of Humanspace assimilated many technologies and sciences, and eventually became masters of matter and energy. This mastery brought them in to alliances and conflicts, and in one particular case brought them a contract with another of the galaxy's races; they wanted to have an entire planet adapted for their use, and this the Lords of Humanspace could do.

One of five worlds orbiting a bright, hot star, the chosen planet was at the juncture of several important trade routes between the more densely-populated areas of space; the world was wanted as a trading center and a place where the rulers of the galaxy could rest from their labors.

It was of little matter that the world was already inhabited; the Lords of Humanspace did not consider such minor things as being worthy of their notice. Mighty weapons were deployed, even mightier engines of change and transformation were brought into play, and the new world became a place where humankind and their allies could call home. The inhabitants were allowed to survive; to survive, and nurse their hatred of the alien beings who had transformed their planet and confined them to the more remote regions of it.

The Lords of Humanspace, and their allies, for all their power and mastery were not the most highly endowed races in the universe. Others, older and more alien yet, held that position, and they too had their rivalries and conflicts. To these older races, the all-powerful Lords of Humanspace were as toys to a child.

 There came a time when these older races had a mighty conflict, and employed powers unimaginable to Humankind. The newly-transformed world was cast out of space and time, and the trapped peoples of the new world looked up into a sky without stars.

The high civilization that the Lords of Humanspace had brought to the new world collapsed - here, suddenly; there, slowly. Humankind is, however, nothing if not adaptable and resilient; civilization began a long, slow climb back into the light and out of the utter darkness that had befallen it. New technologies of the mind, which became known as 'sorcery', replaced the lost technology of the Ancients – as the Lords of Humanspace had become known – and empires and kingdoms rose and fell as the centuries passed into dust.

Humans and their alien allies built and strove, and created new civilizations out of the ashes of the old. Heroes and villians abounded, and new legends were born out of the tales of their battles and quests. In every generation, new heroes and heroines were born, and their legends added to the mythology and history of their world. Gods and goddesses, some based on the memories of the old races that has cast the world into darkness and some created by the mnds of their worshippers, abounded and made their presence in the world known to their worshippers and their competitors.

Some traces of the old technology survived, and became highly sought-after and coveted treasures. Some of what was left of the old world was beneficial and useful; other devices could kill at a touch. All of the inhabitants of the world understood this, and the quest for these wonders was left to a new breed of 'adventurers', who took the most horrific risks in order to obtain the most generous of rewards.

And so it begins; tales of wonder, and of people not yet born, and of lands not yet known...
Come with us; our journey is just begun...

Uncle,

We wait patiently. Must you torment us with snippets...so?!?!

H;0)

Chirine, have you seen this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58eLhgcaMFc&feature=youtu.be

Phil would plotz.  For that matter, it's got me wanting to start saving my Khiatars.

Quote from: Zirunel;960127Well, the results might have been fascinating , or possibly not. Seeing as how one track seems to have led to a bunch of Tekumel publications, and the other track....perhaps not so much. I have to admit I am kind of guessing there, I am not certain what publications came out of the power-gamer track. Possibly some?

But regardless, it sounds like in that instance, the Professor resolved the problem of new-gamers vs. the old-timers, not by hounding out the old group but by splitting the groups. So more-or-less everyone found a place?

They did the two "Tekumel Journals", "Missum", and began the "Armies" series before the split. I finished most of the "Armies" series, republished Phil's other works, and did everything else from 1980 to 1987, including the miniatures line. I got exactly one article for the 'zines from them in the period 1978 - 1988.

Phil didn't resolve it; he liked having everyone at each other's throats, because it greatly reduced his workload as a GM. We solved the issue ourselves, by telling him we were quitting unless we had our own group.

Quote from: Greentongue;960170Is the current Tekumel Foundation a mixture of these two groups, mainly one of them or later arrivals?


Is there a shortage of loose coin, what with most transactions being done with credit and it being basically a low metal world?
=

Mostly late arrivals (late 1980s) to the Monday group. After the two groups collapsedf in the middle 1990s, the half-dozen that were left became the one group; they told me that they adopted our group's name for the prestige value. The Chairman-President started in our group in the late 1980s.

Yes; a lot of paper writs get exchanged as well. Lots of bookkeeping, so lots of work for scribes.

Quote from: Hrugga;960181Uncle,

We wait patiently. Must you torment us with snippets...so?!?!

H;0)

I'm working on it. In my vast amounts of free time...

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;960235Chirine, have you seen this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58eLhgcaMFc&feature=youtu.be

Phil would plotz.  For that matter, it's got me wanting to start saving my Khiatars.

Yes, I have. And yes, Phil would have loved it, and really had fun with it...

... which is why I think we're all so truly blessed and fortunate that the Tekumel Foundation killed the Tekumel room at Gary Con three years ago, as Stefan had already agreed to provide a complete set of his products for the games set in the Underworlds that we were going to run. My miniatures, his wonderful products, and I think it would have made for some really wonderful games that people would have enjoyed and that Gary and Phil would have been proud of to have at Gary's convention...

... but they would have been UNOFFICIAL, UNAUTHORIZED, and UNAPPROVED games that would have given people the wrong interpretation of Phil's world which - as we all have been told - can come only from the Tekumel Foundation. At which point, the long-time Tekumel fans who were going to run these games at he convention with me reconsidered the decision to spend all their money and time that they had offered to give to help tell people about Phil's creation, and they simply quit. So, no Tekumel room at Gary Con, but the Tekumel Foundation's interpretation of Tekumel is safe. Make sure you thank them, next time you see them, for their superb handling of the situation.

(My! Ain't he snarky, tonight?)

Quote from: chirine ba kal;960244Yes; a lot of paper writs get exchanged as well. Lots of bookkeeping, so lots of work for scribes.

Uncle a quick few questions in regard to coinage. How much more valuable are coins from the past than those minted new in the Empire? Is there an exchange rate? Would one hesitate to melt them down?

H:0)