Quote from: chirine ba kal;959906I think what we're looking at here is the basic failure of Dave, Gary, and Phil in both original D&D and EPT to anticipate the way that the 'career path' or 'story arc' of the player-character would develop. All three assumed that the PCs would go up in 'level' to the point where they would become 'settled citizens' and establish their own domains; from these, new PCs would be sent forth by the old ones on quests and missions in a 'patron / client' model (such as Phil uses in EPT with Lady Mnella in Jakalla) and which would result in a 'churn' / 'turnover' of PCs over the length of a campaign. Being 'first generation' RPG writers, all three badly misjudged the way players wanted to play.

That is one aspect of Pendragon that seems to be unique.
It is a generational game where each adventure session is considered to be a Season and years go by quickly.
You are expected to start a family and have a heir as your character will age and eventually die.
Some of your character's gains will carry over to the heir.

I was wondering if the concept could be applied to EPT.
Might help people to be grounded in the idea of clans and lineages but, might also be one more Weird Thing to ward people off.
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Quote from: chirine ba kal;959906I think so; being a fief-holder is a personally risky business, as you have to get out there and keep tabs on the locals. Who all have their own agendas, and have their own weapons. And there's the flora and fauna, too. I had to deal with a tribal rebellion, which kept us occupied for months of gaming. You have to keep order, keep paying taxes, and all within the social and physical constraints of the setting. No cavalry, which has a huge effect on mobility and your way of thinking.

Are small guard stations and a network of signal towers used?
Would that be too "progressive" and suppressed by the clans that specialized in messenger services?

How much delegation is normal?
Is each family group a unit that is expected to meet its obligations or are things more Top Down driven?
Is there consistency "because it has always been done that way" or is each fief basically run differently?
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Quote from: Greentongue;959918That is one aspect of Pendragon that seems to be unique.
It is a generational game where each adventure session is considered to be a Season and years go by quickly.
You are expected to start a family and have a heir as your character will age and eventually die.
Some of your character's gains will carry over to the heir.

I was wondering if the concept could be applied to EPT.
Might help people to be grounded in the idea of clans and lineages but, might also be one more Weird Thing to ward people off.
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Understood. I like it; it's the way Phil started to play in his campaign in the middling 1980s, where we were expected to settle down, have families, and then hire 'new' PCs to go out and adventure. I still play my campaign that way, which my leaden alter-ego being a patron and supporting adventurers in return for a portion of the spoils.

I think it could - Lord Chirine is getting to the point where he's old enough that the kids are asking him for the keys to the palanquin for tonight - and I think it would be a lot of fun. As for the Weird Thing, I dunno; I find enough Weird Things in gaming that don't send me into orbit, but different styles for different people. I find the usual bog-standard medieval fantasy uninteresting, as I'm too familiar with the basic premise, but more 'exotic' stuff fascinates me.

Quote from: Greentongue;959919Are small guard stations and a network of signal towers used?
Would that be too "progressive" and suppressed by the clans that specialized in messenger services?

How much delegation is normal?
Is each family group a unit that is expected to meet its obligations or are things more Top Down driven?
Is there consistency "because it has always been done that way" or is each fief basically run differently?
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In larger fiefs, yes, if the fief-holder is willing to pay for it. The Engsvanyali left all kinds of 'infrastructure' like this behind, and if you're willing to pay for it you can restore it. (Phil had all sorts of things like this to get the players' money from them.) The guards would be personal troops, paid for by the fief-holser, and the signal towers - much like the Roman limes towers (see also http://bastelbogen-online.de/category/geschichte/rom/limes/ or Luttwak's book on Roman border defenses.) - will actually be run by the messenger clans as a for-profit operation. The smaller the village, the smaller the guard post, and the more you'll rely on the specialized messenger clans for information transfer.

Lots and lots. The family in the village reports to the clan in the small town who reports to the clan in the large town who reports to the fief-holder who reports to the provincial governor who reports to Bey Su who reports to Avanthar. All of the fiefs are run pretty much the same, as everybody uses the Engsvanyali manuals on how to do it. People do come up with ideas, but as they have to pay for it themselves there's a powerful incentive against innovation - too expensive.

I have a question for Chirine and Gronan about the importance of clans in "game" Tekumel.

If you look a the published games, there is a lot of evolution, clans get only passing reference in 1975, then by 1983 they are an important part of the setting, then by the 1990s clan has become paramount, almost the name of the game, to where Tekumel is basically an RPG  about living in clans.

But I am curious about the 70s, and the early role of clans at the Professor's table. Were they always the big deal that would emerge later in, say, The Sourcebook? Or did that evolve over time?

Out of curiosity, what's a good starting place to read about Tekumel/EPT (is that interchangeable)? This thread is so full of obscure references, it makes it difficult to gauge or engage with the setting being discussed.

Quote from: Dumarest;960051Out of curiosity, what's a good starting place to read about Tekumel/EPT (is that interchangeable)? This thread is so full of obscure references, it makes it difficult to gauge or engage with the setting being discussed.

Try here...     http://www.tekumel.com


H:0)

Quote from: Hrugga;960059Try here...     http://www.tekumel.com


H:0)

Thanks.

Quote from: Zirunel;960034I have a question for Chirine and Gronan about the importance of clans in "game" Tekumel.

If you look a the published games, there is a lot of evolution, clans get only passing reference in 1975, then by 1983 they are an important part of the setting, then by the 1990s clan has become paramount, almost the name of the game, to where Tekumel is basically an RPG  about living in clans.

But I am curious about the 70s, and the early role of clans at the Professor's table. Were they always the big deal that would emerge later in, say, The Sourcebook? Or did that evolve over time?

Clans were very important almost from day 1.  By 1976, for certain.  It was especially bad for those of us who started as southern barbarians once Mirusiya's "New Men," who were all native citizens, came along.  Korunme, who at the time was Kasi Hlych'ptu, was openly mocked and scorned in front of his superior officers by other PCs for being clanless.  What made it far worse is that I was insulted personally out of game as well.

Quote from: Dumarest;960064Thanks.

Straight from the horse's mouth(that do exist on Tekumel somewhere)!!!

Enjoy,

H:0)

Quote from: Dumarest;960051Out of curiosity, what's a good starting place to read about Tekumel/EPT (is that interchangeable)? This thread is so full of obscure references, it makes it difficult to gauge or engage with the setting being discussed.

Reading Man of Gold isn't a bad way to get a feel of the setting.
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Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;960070Clans were very important almost from day 1.  By 1976, for certain.  It was especially bad for those of us who started as southern barbarians once Mirusiya's "New Men," who were all native citizens, came along.  Korunme, who at the time was Kasi Hlych'ptu, was openly mocked and scorned in front of his superior officers by other PCs for being clanless.  What made it far worse is that I was insulted personally out of game as well.

Hi, thanks for this.

Re clans that is a very helpful perspective. Thank you for that.

Re off-table spillover, that is also very informative, although rather disturbing......

Quote from: Greentongue;960083Reading Man of Gold isn't a bad way to get a feel of the setting.
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Cool, I did not know the creator wrote novels set there. I once saw a copy of the game, a boxed set if I remember right, on the lower shelf at a shop that dealt in comic books and roleplaying games back in the very early 1980s, but I had no idea what "Empire of the Petal Throne" was and I think I assumed it was a D&D setting or something. Needless to say, I didn't get it as I have never been much of a D&D player anyway, but now I see 600+ pages  related to it on this forum so naturally I'm curious what all the hubbub is about.

Quote from: Zirunel;960034I have a question for Chirine and Gronan about the importance of clans in "game" Tekumel.

If you look a the published games, there is a lot of evolution, clans get only passing reference in 1975, then by 1983 they are an important part of the setting, then by the 1990s clan has become paramount, almost the name of the game, to where Tekumel is basically an RPG  about living in clans.

But I am curious about the 70s, and the early role of clans at the Professor's table. Were they always the big deal that would emerge later in, say, The Sourcebook? Or did that evolve over time?

Well, they were pretty important when I started in early '76, and we wound up doing  a lot of publishing on the subject over the years. Being part of a clan was a cornerstone of Phil's interpretation of his world-setting; however, it didn't get much air time originally as TSR felt that gamers would have difficulty understanding the concept. Once Phil began to self-publish through us, this began to change.

Quote from: Dumarest;960051Out of curiosity, what's a good starting place to read about Tekumel/EPT (is that interchangeable)? This thread is so full of obscure references, it makes it difficult to gauge or engage with the setting being discussed.

Written text? EPT, followed by Phil's available novels. On line? The tekumel.com website, as Hrugga says.