Quote from: Adam Csipke on August 07, 2023, 08:24:53 AM
A werewolf, however...

...has all the same problems.  Depending on what type of werewolf you are, you're either another form of undead or you are a magic user.  Either way it's a sin.

One consideration in this that seems to get glossed over is "what is the origin of vampirism in the setting?"

I've seen lots of references to "cursed by God" up thread, but I have a feeling that Vampire the Masquerade's influence within the hobby talking.

Orginal recipe Dracula, wasn't cursed by God, he was a wicked sorcerer who learned his powers and ability to cheat death from Satan himself. His minions were turned via seduction/domination and his feeding from them.

In essence, far from being cursed by God, Dracula was the embodiment of sin and corrupted everything he came in contact with... and only Faith; particularly Catholic faith in the novel as only the Crucifix (not a generic cross) rosary (also expressly Catholic), communion hosts and holy water could repel Sin Incarnate (something that shocks good Protestant Mr. Harker when presented with them).

In which case sincere faith and taking of the sacraments should be something that washes away or suppresses vampiric nature as, per Catholic doctrine Jesus can wipe away any sin from a contrite heart.

But that's just Dracula and all manner of vampire myths are out there; heck it could even be a purely (pulp) scientific condition akin to the vampires in Underworld... in which case all standard rules of human morality apply to their behavior and taking communion in a state of mortal sin is a sin for which they'll face judgement at death for if they do not confess it before then.

At least here in Central Europe, there was no such thing as a good vampire in folklore or church belief. All vampires are inherently evil because it is their malice that causes them to become vampires in the first place. Moreover, there is no such thing as vampirism as a disease that can be passed on from one person to another. Vampires are already dead and therefore beyond redemption.   

Quote from: BadApple on August 07, 2023, 08:33:32 AM

Quote from: Adam Csipke on August 07, 2023, 08:24:53 AM
A werewolf, however...

...has all the same problems.  Depending on what type of werewolf you are, you're either another form of undead or you are a magic user.  Either way it's a sin.

Ah no, poorly phrased on my part, my apologies. Ditching the "good vampire" concept and just playing a werewolf, I think.

Quote from: Adam Csipke on August 07, 2023, 10:17:14 AM

Quote from: BadApple on August 07, 2023, 08:33:32 AM

Quote from: Adam Csipke on August 07, 2023, 08:24:53 AM
A werewolf, however...

...has all the same problems.  Depending on what type of werewolf you are, you're either another form of undead or you are a magic user.  Either way it's a sin.

Ah no, poorly phrased on my part, my apologies. Ditching the "good vampire" concept and just playing a werewolf, I think.

Yeah, werewolf, depending on the setting could be anything from a type of undead, to a curse (i.e. something inflicted on you), an inherited condition (again, not something you can control, ergo not innately sinful) or your own use of magic (probably sinful, but there's some wiggle room depending on the specifics of magic in the setting (i.e. if it's a natural force akin to physics vs. gained from spirits vs. a gift you were born with).

There's no one right answer because we're not dealing with a singular real thing but a hodgepodge of myths, legends and folklore.

Quote from: Adam Csipke on August 07, 2023, 08:24:53 AM
First off, thanks to everyone for replying - some really interesting posts there!

It was a nice idea, but its not gonna work, I think. Far too many ways for my GM to BURN MY PC IN THE HOLY FIRES OF THE LORD!! LOL

That depends on the charactistics of vampires in the setting. Do they have fast healing? Then taking damage is only a minor inconvenience. If the vampire is a priest/cleric who can actually call forth miracles, then taking damage by holding a crucifix is mechanically similar to blood magic. Its just blood magic for the sake of good, instead on evil.

There is also the matter of party balance. Are all the PCs roughly on par with esch other, ability-wise? Vampires are traditionally depicted as having superhuman strength, shapeshifting, and virtual immunity to harm. If these traits still exist in the setting, then countering them with a few negative traits may be needed if the other PC races are relatively weaker.

My point is, instead of dismissing the idea because, "oh gosh, too many ways to get hurt," consider that part of the challange of playing the character. It's the Glass Cannon archetype. Wizards are notoriously squishy, especially at lower levels, but people enjoy playing them because their magic is insanely potent.

QuoteA werewolf, however...

A Christian werewolf? Or werewolf priest, like in the film Silver Bullet?

Quote from: BadApple on August 07, 2023, 08:33:32 AM

Quote from: Adam Csipke on August 07, 2023, 08:24:53 AM
A werewolf, however...

...has all the same problems.  Depending on what type of werewolf you are, you're either another form of undead or you are a magic user.  Either way it's a sin.

Thus you don't mix IRL religion with fantasy, better to create a facsimile or just plain ignore the religion's dogma and theology.

Quote from: Heavy Josh on August 06, 2023, 05:36:28 PM
Not a Catholic, but I know if a player is trying to pull a fast one around "Character Flaw: Vampire" when I see it. 

So ... The G-d "absolves" a blood-sucking murderer - who will continue to be a blood-sucking murderer because that's exactly what a vampire is?

I saw this movie: "Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back!"  If I was the GM I'd laugh in your face and burn the character sheet for my own entertainment.

Quote from: Theory of Games on August 07, 2023, 09:31:15 PM

Quote from: Heavy Josh on August 06, 2023, 05:36:28 PM
Not a Catholic, but I know if a player is trying to pull a fast one around "Character Flaw: Vampire" when I see it. 

So ... The G-d "absolves" a blood-sucking murderer - who will continue to be a blood-sucking murderer because that's exactly what a vampire is?

I saw this movie: "Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back!"  If I was the GM I'd laugh in your face and burn the character sheet for my own entertainment.

I think OP asked honestly and got a lot of solid honest feedback in return.  I also think that he came to the right conclusion that the character concept is just isn't workable.

IMO, no vampire should ever be treated as anything other than an absolute malevolent force with just enough personality to make in interesting for main characters to interact with.  I would classify them as demons walking around in a human suit powered by the blood of others.  But hey, that's my opinion, man.

The concept of a vampire surviving by drinking Eucharist wine as the Blood of Christ for sustenance was a core concept of the novel The Blood Gospel, by James Rollins and Rebecca Cantrell, if the OP wants to check out a modern take on the idea. The vampire in that story was the same kind of heroic anti-villain who worked for the Vatican as a secret agent hunter of supernatural foes.

I think you're right that the concept is going to need buy-in from the GM and the other players to work, but I wouldn't be so quick to give up on it just yet. If everybody's willing to spend time on the story of that character it could make for some amazing gaming.

I doubt that transubstantiation would work for a vampire—as in, when the priest blesses the wafer and the wine, it does not change to Christ's body and blood for the vampire. An interesting concept, though.

Quote from: cavalier973 on August 07, 2023, 11:23:34 PM
I doubt that transubstantiation would work for a vampire—as in, when the priest blesses the wafer and the wine, it does not change to Christ's body and blood for the vampire. An interesting concept, though.

I'd argue it would depend a LOT on the nature of vampirism in the setting, because if the vampire is, say, a victim transformed into a vampire against their will and whose soul remains intact (vs. something like Buffy vampires where the soul is replaced by a demon) then the idea that the All-Loving God would cast someone aside for a misfortune beyond their control is, frankly, more monstrous than the existence of vampires in the setting.

Catholic Answers even has a segment in this podcast about some of these points... particularly the question at the 23:00 timestamp which deals directly with vampires and communion, but the one at 6:04 also covers some vampire bits like if a vampire would be bound for Hell by default or not;
https://www.catholic.com/audio/cal/weird-questions-13

So it really depends on how vampires work in the setting rather than a one-size-fits-all answer that covers every version of vampires.

Related: here's another fun essay about vampires and the Catholic Church...
https://www.catholicworldreport.com/2021/10/22/a-taste-for-blood-vampires-catholicism-and-popular-culture/

QuoteSo ... The G-d "absolves" a blood-sucking murderer - who will continue to be a blood-sucking murderer because that's exactly what a vampire is.

Well;

1) the concept of the character was was vampire who wasn't a blood-sucking murderer, and

2) what a vampire is, exactly, is a fictitious being so...

Enjoying the discussion though!

I mean, if it was about the roleplay and not the powers you could always represent this through an alignment shift.  Someone who was (Something)Evil turns their life around and is trying to learn a new alignment. The doubled XP required to next lvl shows the struggle to learn new ways.  It could be the challenge you are looking for.

Quote from: Effete on August 07, 2023, 08:19:50 PMMy point is, instead of dismissing the idea because, "oh gosh, too many ways to get hurt," consider that part of the challange of playing the character. It's the Glass Cannon archetype. Wizards are notoriously squishy, especially at lower levels, but people enjoy playing them because their magic is insanely potent.

And it's a fair point. I've ditched this particular character concept because if his main way to sustain himself if by taking the blood of humans (or other sentients), then by definition the character becomes a monster and thus a target which of course means the rest of the PCs are targets. Then the game becomes the Adam Show which is a bit crap for everyone else.

Quote from: Effete on August 07, 2023, 08:19:50 PMA Christian werewolf? Or werewolf priest, like in the film Silver Bullet?

The campaign setting is the Holy Roman Empire in 1520 (with fantastical elements) so the default religious faction for...ooh, pretty much everyone, will be some stripe of Christianity - predominantly Catholic, but it's the birth of Lutheranism, there are "lesser" Christian sects, etc.