Might be an odd question, but I figure asking it here might get some sensible answers, as opposed to other places where it would just result in a ban.
About to play in an historical fantasy game set in a Holy Roman Empire where magic works and nonhuman PC races are allowed. The game system is Renaissance Deluxe (a BRP variant where factions and beliefs have tangible in-game effects). The GM says we can pick any humanoid race from the creature section, so long as it has INT. I have a mind to play a vampire.
Here's where the religion bit comes in. I'm thinking he could be a devout Catholic. Crosses wouldn't affect him (in the rule system it's the victim's faith that repels a vampire, not the mere symbol), and I got to wondering about transubstantiation. The Catholic belief that the bread and wine in the Eucharist literally become the flesh and blood of Christ.
See where I'm going with that? Aside from offending Catholics (of which there are none around the table, and if any reading this are offended, my apologies...), any reason. Why this wouldn't fly, in game? Not run it past the GM yet, and he may just shoot it down anyway...
Quote from: Adam Csipke on August 06, 2023, 02:40:22 PM
Might be an odd question, but I figure asking it here might get some sensible answers, as opposed to other places where it would just result in a ban.
About to play in an historical fantasy game set in a Holy Roman Empire where magic works and nonhuman PC races are allowed. The game system is Renaissance Deluxe (a BRP variant where factions and beliefs have tangible in-game effects). The GM says we can pick any humanoid race from the creature section, so long as it has INT. I have a mind to play a vampire.
Here's where the religion bit comes in. I'm thinking he could be a devout Catholic. Crosses wouldn't affect him (in the rule system it's the victim's faith that repels a vampire, not the mere symbol), and I got to wondering about transubstantiation. The Catholic belief that the bread and wine in the Eucharist literally become the flesh and blood of Christ.
See where I'm going with that? Aside from offending Catholics (of which there are none around the table, and if any reading this are offended, my apologies...), any reason. Why this wouldn't fly, in game? Not run it past the GM yet, and he may just shoot it down anyway...
Speaking as a Catholic myself; a huge factor in what you're thinking has to do with one's state when receiving the body and blood of Christ. It is actually a further sin to take Communion while in a state of mortal sin and you're already in a setting where the supernatural is especially overt.
I'd suggest the following; that if the vampire is taking the cup while in a state of grace (having committed no mortal sins since last receiving the sacrament of Reconciliation) then the cup would be treated as true blood (and likely especially potent blood... it is the blood of God after all), but if in a state of sin, it should burn like the Wrath of God (i.e. like drinking liquid sunshine) to receive it.
Personally, I'd take it a step further and have proper atonement followed by Communion as a CURE for vampirism, but in the alternative I remember back in the days when it was actually still being edgy and not just woke, Vampire the Masquerade had a bit with a particular group of Catholic vampires sustaining themselves entirely on the Blood of Christ via nightly midnight masses and a Priest with True Faith.
I knew this was the right place to ask! Chris, thank you!
So it could.potentially work, but I'd have to be 100% certain that the character was in a state of grace. So, immediately following the sacrament of Reconciliation?
Quote from: Adam Csipke on August 06, 2023, 02:40:22 PM
The Catholic belief that the bread and wine in the Eucharist literally become the flesh and blood of Christ.
See where I'm going with that?
Um, since it is not reality the vampire would starve. (no Catholic priest will seriously tell you that the bread and wine become real human blood & flesh) I was riased in the church so I do know. So, you'd be back to square one with a character that couldn't be a practicing catholic.
Quote from: Adam Csipke on August 06, 2023, 02:40:22 PM
Might be an odd question, but I figure asking it here might get some sensible answers, as opposed to other places where it would just result in a ban.
About to play in an historical fantasy game set in a Holy Roman Empire where magic works and nonhuman PC races are allowed. The game system is Renaissance Deluxe (a BRP variant where factions and beliefs have tangible in-game effects). The GM says we can pick any humanoid race from the creature section, so long as it has INT. I have a mind to play a vampire.
Here's where the religion bit comes in. I'm thinking he could be a devout Catholic. Crosses wouldn't affect him (in the rule system it's the victim's faith that repels a vampire, not the mere symbol), and I got to wondering about transubstantiation. The Catholic belief that the bread and wine in the Eucharist literally become the flesh and blood of Christ.
See where I'm going with that? Aside from offending Catholics (of which there are none around the table, and if any reading this are offended, my apologies...), any reason. Why this wouldn't fly, in game? Not run it past the GM yet, and he may just shoot it down anyway...
Astro city
Spoiler
has a character that is a catholic vampire priest or something
Spoiler
. It is a good comic.
I do not think it is Catholic to "feed" on the blood of Eucharist.
He might eat the blood of animals, or chase the guilty and unrepentant. It might still be sinful to take people's blood, but he might find some justification as he can't kill himself either.
(Take this with a grain of salt, I'm far from a specialist.)
Not a Catholic, but most of my family is and I did some coursework on Medieval Christianity in college.
I would think a devoutly Catholic vampire would be accutely aware that he is an abomination in the eyes of God, and determined to find a way to redeem himself and earn his salvation. Not only would he be repulsed by the cross (since he believes in its power), but he might even intentionally expose himself to it in a vampiric equivalent of self-flagellation.
I'm fuzzier on this, but I believe taking communion without having first received absolution is a pretty grievous misdeed in traditional Catholicism, and I can't imagine any priest absolving someone of being a Vampire, though you could write that in as a backstory character.
CORRECTION: See Scooter's comment below.
Or you could go the other way, and make your character a sincere but misguided Catholic heretic who believes that the doctrine of transubstantiation represents a divine stamp of approval on vampirism. Maybe such a character would choose to feed only on the blood of the righteous, and be on a quest to imbibe the Blood of Christ directly from the Shroud of Turin or something like that.
Quote from: ForgottenF on August 06, 2023, 04:05:02 PM
I'm fuzzier on this, but I believe taking communion without having first received absolution is a pretty grievous misdeed in traditional Catholicism,
No, One partakes in the sacrament of Holy communion before one is introduced to the act of asking for absolution.
Quote from: Scooter on August 06, 2023, 04:13:57 PM
Quote from: ForgottenF on August 06, 2023, 04:05:02 PM
I'm fuzzier on this, but I believe taking communion without having first received absolution is a pretty grievous misdeed in traditional Catholicism,
No, One partakes in the sacrament of Holy communion before one is introduced to the act of asking for absolution.
It can vary. The ancient arrangement, still followed in the East and reintroduced recently in some American dioceses, is to do baptism, confirmation, and the Eucharist together for infants and allow for children to receive communion, with Confession coming at the age of reason. The emphases in the West on the bishop as ordinary minister of confirmation and on the importance of understanding what you are receiving in the Eucharist has pushed confirmation and the Eucharist back to the age of reason or later.
On the original topic, Chris/Jean-Valjean :) has the right of it, and Declan Finn's
Love at First Bite novels include a Catholic vampire who works hard to keep herself in a state of grace and sustain herself on the Holy Eucharist in just such a fashion. The only question is if the setting's vampires are sustaining themselves on blood on the metaphysical level--that is, it is blood
qua the reality of blood that preserves their unlife--or on a more materialistic, 'digestive' level. The Eucharist should count as sustenance for them in the former case, but not the latter. It would be more in keeping with the worldview of the times for vampires to be the former.
Quote from: Adam Csipke on August 06, 2023, 02:40:22 PM
Here's where the religion bit comes in. I'm thinking he could be a devout Catholic. Crosses wouldn't affect him (in the rule system it's the victim's faith that repels a vampire, not the mere symbol), and I got to wondering about transubstantiation. The Catholic belief that the bread and wine in the Eucharist literally become the flesh and blood of Christ.
See where I'm going with that? Aside from offending Catholics (of which there are none around the table, and if any reading this are offended, my apologies...), any reason. Why this wouldn't fly, in game? Not run it past the GM yet, and he may just shoot it down anyway...
This offends me as a vampire movie fan more than anything else lol
But I say up to the GM. My feeling is it really downplays how evil and corrupted by satanic powers vampires ought to be, if drinking the eucharist gets around feeding on people. Theologically it probably wouldn't work (maybe if it redeems you while also killing you).But it is a game, so anything goes
Not a Catholic, but I know if a player is trying to pull a fast one around "Character Flaw: Vampire" when I see it. ;D
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on August 06, 2023, 04:47:59 PM
Quote from: Scooter on August 06, 2023, 04:13:57 PM
Quote from: ForgottenF on August 06, 2023, 04:05:02 PM
I'm fuzzier on this, but I believe taking communion without having first received absolution is a pretty grievous misdeed in traditional Catholicism,
No, One partakes in the sacrament of Holy communion before one is introduced to the act of asking for absolution.
It can vary.
No. In the CATHOLIC church the OP is talking about that is how it is done. It is a formal process. The Sacraments aren't given willy nilly.
Quote from: ForgottenF on August 06, 2023, 04:05:02 PM
I would think a devoutly Catholic vampire would be accutely aware that he is an abomination in the eyes of God, and determined to find a way to redeem himself and earn his salvation. Not only would he be repulsed by the cross (since he believes in its power), but he might even intentionally expose himself to it in a vampiric equivalent of self-flagellation.
^^^^^
I think this is the more interesting character. A vampire repulsed by the symbols of his own faith, because of the power of belief he himself instills in the imagery. It's a character continually seeking absolution, with it perpetually out of reach. That, in itself, is an entire character arc waiting to unfold.
I would think that vampirism would be treated like possession. I would assume that until it was cured that the vampire would be in a state of sin and unable to partake in holy sacraments. I'd also assume that there would be a sacrament similar exorcism to dealing with it.
There are seven Roman Catholic Sacraments: Baptism, Confession, Communion, Confirmation, Marriage, Holy Orders, Last Unction. The order is typically Baptism, next Confession, then Communion, next Confirmation, either Marriage or Holy Orders (only one held at a time), and lastly Last Unction. Confession and Communion will be repeated often within a lifetime. Marriage, either to a human or to God, is typically a lifetime commitment, but if death parts you from your human, or your calling to God is facing confliction with a true new calling to marriage, you can do either of the other "wedding" sacraments. Last Unction to be done on one's death bed can also be done several times, as God's grace may spare your life, even more than once.
To receive communion you *should* be in a state of grace having the sacrament of confession cleanse you. However it is not strictly forbidden in Roman Catholicism, as one under unexpectation, lack of access to confession, or other duress, can do a quick private contrition and prayer of forgiveness before walking up for communion. This was confirmed not only in my lengthy Roman Catholic education, but further with priests explaining such in sermons, and other external discussions with clergy in theological discussion both in and out of higher education.
BUT, ideally you should cleanse your self through the sacrament of confession beforehand.
Sins like murder can be forgiven as many times as needed. However, if vampires are cursed by god to survive in such a state of duress, it gets into questions on whether what one can do as the damned as self-destruction is ALSO a mortal sin, and one that circumvents the opportunity of contrition and forgiveness (as you are now dead and beyond the sanctity of sacraments of confession &.last unction). So if there is a way to survive on blood without human murder, you do that. If you want to be in communion with others of the faith, then you go through the sacrament of confession to cleanse your state into one of innocence to receive the transsubstatiative transformation of communion's sanctity.
As for it burning your vampire if not taken properly, sounds good, as is having your vampire with faithfulness accept the sacraments in order and accepting communion without harm when in a state of grace post-confession (because confession needs contrition to complete into absolution). And given the needs for perpetual adorations and staffing the Vespers, Complines, Matins, and *maybe* up to Lauds (dawn) there will be many moments when "night owl" faithful will be needed.
It would be a rather tortured existence at times, but I think that's the RP goal here. I have no qualms with this given my lifetime of Roman Catholic training. In fact, the idea that the faith symbols do not hurt the faithful vampire, unless one is attempting harm against the faithful in good standing using it as a protective apotropaic, would be an interesting RP moment. To corner a faithful criminal only to kneel before such symbols unharmed, but try to convince them to return to Christ in sacrament of confession, would be a wonderful inversion of typecast. In fact, a martyr's death in the process of trying to save a mortal soul from persisting in the path of damnation would be an acceptible means of release from the curse of undeath, as well as quite poignant scene.
First off, thanks to everyone for replying - some really interesting posts there!
It was a nice idea, but its not gonna work, I think. Far too many ways for my GM to BURN MY PC IN THE HOLY FIRES OF THE LORD!! LOL
A werewolf, however...
Quote from: Adam Csipke on August 07, 2023, 08:24:53 AM
A werewolf, however...
...has all the same problems. Depending on what type of werewolf you are, you're either another form of undead or you are a magic user. Either way it's a sin.
One consideration in this that seems to get glossed over is "what is the origin of vampirism in the setting?"
I've seen lots of references to "cursed by God" up thread, but I have a feeling that Vampire the Masquerade's influence within the hobby talking.
Orginal recipe Dracula, wasn't cursed by God, he was a wicked sorcerer who learned his powers and ability to cheat death from Satan himself. His minions were turned via seduction/domination and his feeding from them.
In essence, far from being cursed by God, Dracula was the embodiment of sin and corrupted everything he came in contact with... and only Faith; particularly Catholic faith in the novel as only the Crucifix (not a generic cross) rosary (also expressly Catholic), communion hosts and holy water could repel Sin Incarnate (something that shocks good Protestant Mr. Harker when presented with them).
In which case sincere faith and taking of the sacraments should be something that washes away or suppresses vampiric nature as, per Catholic doctrine Jesus can wipe away any sin from a contrite heart.
But that's just Dracula and all manner of vampire myths are out there; heck it could even be a purely (pulp) scientific condition akin to the vampires in Underworld... in which case all standard rules of human morality apply to their behavior and taking communion in a state of mortal sin is a sin for which they'll face judgement at death for if they do not confess it before then.
At least here in Central Europe, there was no such thing as a good vampire in folklore or church belief. All vampires are inherently evil because it is their malice that causes them to become vampires in the first place. Moreover, there is no such thing as vampirism as a disease that can be passed on from one person to another. Vampires are already dead and therefore beyond redemption.
Quote from: BadApple on August 07, 2023, 08:33:32 AM
Quote from: Adam Csipke on August 07, 2023, 08:24:53 AM
A werewolf, however...
...has all the same problems. Depending on what type of werewolf you are, you're either another form of undead or you are a magic user. Either way it's a sin.
Ah no, poorly phrased on my part, my apologies. Ditching the "good vampire" concept and just playing a werewolf, I think.
Quote from: Adam Csipke on August 07, 2023, 10:17:14 AM
Quote from: BadApple on August 07, 2023, 08:33:32 AM
Quote from: Adam Csipke on August 07, 2023, 08:24:53 AM
A werewolf, however...
...has all the same problems. Depending on what type of werewolf you are, you're either another form of undead or you are a magic user. Either way it's a sin.
Ah no, poorly phrased on my part, my apologies. Ditching the "good vampire" concept and just playing a werewolf, I think.
Yeah, werewolf, depending on the setting could be anything from a type of undead, to a curse (i.e. something inflicted on you), an inherited condition (again, not something you can control, ergo not innately sinful) or your own use of magic (probably sinful, but there's some wiggle room depending on the specifics of magic in the setting (i.e. if it's a natural force akin to physics vs. gained from spirits vs. a gift you were born with).
There's no one right answer because we're not dealing with a singular real thing but a hodgepodge of myths, legends and folklore.
Quote from: Adam Csipke on August 07, 2023, 08:24:53 AM
First off, thanks to everyone for replying - some really interesting posts there!
It was a nice idea, but its not gonna work, I think. Far too many ways for my GM to BURN MY PC IN THE HOLY FIRES OF THE LORD!! LOL
That depends on the charactistics of vampires in the setting. Do they have fast healing? Then taking damage is only a minor inconvenience. If the vampire is a priest/cleric who can actually call forth miracles, then taking damage by holding a crucifix is mechanically similar to blood magic. Its just blood magic for the sake of good, instead on evil.
There is also the matter of party balance. Are all the PCs roughly on par with esch other, ability-wise? Vampires are traditionally depicted as having superhuman strength, shapeshifting, and virtual immunity to harm. If these traits still exist in the setting, then countering them with a few negative traits may be needed if the other PC races are relatively weaker.
My point is, instead of dismissing the idea because, "oh gosh, too many ways to get hurt," consider that part of the challange of playing the character. It's the Glass Cannon archetype. Wizards are notoriously squishy, especially at lower levels, but people enjoy playing them because their magic is insanely potent.
QuoteA werewolf, however...
A Christian werewolf? Or werewolf priest, like in the film Silver Bullet?
Quote from: BadApple on August 07, 2023, 08:33:32 AM
Quote from: Adam Csipke on August 07, 2023, 08:24:53 AM
A werewolf, however...
...has all the same problems. Depending on what type of werewolf you are, you're either another form of undead or you are a magic user. Either way it's a sin.
Thus you don't mix IRL religion with fantasy, better to create a facsimile or just plain ignore the religion's dogma and theology.
Quote from: Heavy Josh on August 06, 2023, 05:36:28 PM
Not a Catholic, but I know if a player is trying to pull a fast one around "Character Flaw: Vampire" when I see it. ;D
;D ;D ;D
(https://assets.website-files.com/58c82c3f95d009d84db1e1b8/592376e8510681022949902e_giphy-downsized%20(2).gif)
So ... The G-d "absolves" a blood-sucking murderer - who will continue to be a blood-sucking murderer because that's exactly what a vampire is?
I saw this movie: "Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back!" ;D ;D ;D If I was the GM I'd laugh in your face and burn the character sheet for my own entertainment.
Quote from: Theory of Games on August 07, 2023, 09:31:15 PM
Quote from: Heavy Josh on August 06, 2023, 05:36:28 PM
Not a Catholic, but I know if a player is trying to pull a fast one around "Character Flaw: Vampire" when I see it. ;D
;D ;D ;D
(https://assets.website-files.com/58c82c3f95d009d84db1e1b8/592376e8510681022949902e_giphy-downsized%20(2).gif)
So ... The G-d "absolves" a blood-sucking murderer - who will continue to be a blood-sucking murderer because that's exactly what a vampire is?
I saw this movie: "Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back!" ;D ;D ;D If I was the GM I'd laugh in your face and burn the character sheet for my own entertainment.
I think OP asked honestly and got a lot of solid honest feedback in return. I also think that he came to the right conclusion that the character concept is just isn't workable.
IMO, no vampire should ever be treated as anything other than an absolute malevolent force with just enough personality to make in interesting for main characters to interact with. I would classify them as demons walking around in a human suit powered by the blood of others. But hey, that's my opinion, man.
The concept of a vampire surviving by drinking Eucharist wine as the Blood of Christ for sustenance was a core concept of the novel The Blood Gospel, by James Rollins and Rebecca Cantrell, if the OP wants to check out a modern take on the idea. The vampire in that story was the same kind of heroic anti-villain who worked for the Vatican as a secret agent hunter of supernatural foes.
I think you're right that the concept is going to need buy-in from the GM and the other players to work, but I wouldn't be so quick to give up on it just yet. If everybody's willing to spend time on the story of that character it could make for some amazing gaming.
I doubt that transubstantiation would work for a vampire—as in, when the priest blesses the wafer and the wine, it does not change to Christ's body and blood for the vampire. An interesting concept, though.
Quote from: cavalier973 on August 07, 2023, 11:23:34 PM
I doubt that transubstantiation would work for a vampire—as in, when the priest blesses the wafer and the wine, it does not change to Christ's body and blood for the vampire. An interesting concept, though.
I'd argue it would depend a LOT on the nature of vampirism in the setting, because if the vampire is, say, a victim transformed into a vampire against their will and whose soul remains intact (vs. something like Buffy vampires where the soul is replaced by a demon) then the idea that the All-Loving God would cast someone aside for a misfortune beyond their control is, frankly, more monstrous than the existence of vampires in the setting.
Catholic Answers even has a segment in this podcast about some of these points... particularly the question at the 23:00 timestamp which deals directly with vampires and communion, but the one at 6:04 also covers some vampire bits like if a vampire would be bound for Hell by default or not;
https://www.catholic.com/audio/cal/weird-questions-13 (https://www.catholic.com/audio/cal/weird-questions-13)
So it really depends on how vampires work in the setting rather than a one-size-fits-all answer that covers every version of vampires.
Related: here's another fun essay about vampires and the Catholic Church...
https://www.catholicworldreport.com/2021/10/22/a-taste-for-blood-vampires-catholicism-and-popular-culture/ (https://www.catholicworldreport.com/2021/10/22/a-taste-for-blood-vampires-catholicism-and-popular-culture/)
QuoteSo ... The G-d "absolves" a blood-sucking murderer - who will continue to be a blood-sucking murderer because that's exactly what a vampire is.
Well;
1) the concept of the character was was vampire who
wasn't a blood-sucking murderer, and
2) what a vampire is, exactly, is a fictitious being so...
Enjoying the discussion though!
I mean, if it was about the roleplay and not the powers you could always represent this through an alignment shift. 8) Someone who was (Something)Evil turns their life around and is trying to learn a new alignment. The doubled XP required to next lvl shows the struggle to learn new ways. :D It could be the challenge you are looking for.
Quote from: Effete on August 07, 2023, 08:19:50 PMMy point is, instead of dismissing the idea because, "oh gosh, too many ways to get hurt," consider that part of the challange of playing the character. It's the Glass Cannon archetype. Wizards are notoriously squishy, especially at lower levels, but people enjoy playing them because their magic is insanely potent.
And it's a fair point. I've ditched this particular character concept because if his main way to sustain himself if by taking the blood of humans (or other sentients), then by definition the character becomes a monster and thus a target which of course means the rest of the PCs are targets. Then the game becomes the Adam Show which is a bit crap for everyone else.
Quote from: Effete on August 07, 2023, 08:19:50 PMA Christian werewolf? Or werewolf priest, like in the film Silver Bullet?
The campaign setting is the Holy Roman Empire in 1520 (with fantastical elements) so the default religious faction for...ooh, pretty much everyone, will be some stripe of Christianity - predominantly Catholic, but it's the birth of Lutheranism, there are "lesser" Christian sects, etc.
Quote from: Adam Csipke on August 08, 2023, 03:06:48 AM
QuoteSo ... The G-d "absolves" a blood-sucking murderer - who will continue to be a blood-sucking murderer because that's exactly what a vampire is.
Well;
1) the concept of the character was was vampire who wasn't a blood-sucking murderer, and
2) what a vampire is, exactly, is a fictitious being so...
Enjoying the discussion though!
Also realised I may have come across as a bit of a dick here. My apologies, it was early and I was only one coffee in...
Quote from: Adam Csipke on August 08, 2023, 03:52:14 AM
Quote from: Effete on August 07, 2023, 08:19:50 PMMy point is, instead of dismissing the idea because, "oh gosh, too many ways to get hurt," consider that part of the challange of playing the character. It's the Glass Cannon archetype. Wizards are notoriously squishy, especially at lower levels, but people enjoy playing them because their magic is insanely potent.
And it's a fair point. I've ditched this particular character concept because if his main way to sustain himself if by taking the blood of humans (or other sentients), then by definition the character becomes a monster and thus a target which of course means the rest of the PCs are targets. Then the game becomes the Adam Show which is a bit crap for everyone else.
In all fairness, this is an issue for the GM to figure out. If he signs off on the concept, then that is approval for you to play the character as you envisioned. If the GM expects this to cause problems for the other players, he should get buy-in from them as well. It isn't your fault if the character is approved and the GM springs a "gotcha" on the party.
Anyway, good luck.